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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

Full Series Official "The Clone Wars" Series Discussion Thread (Spoilers Allowed)

Discussion in 'Star Wars TV- Completed Shows' started by RevantheJediMaster, Jul 15, 2005.

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  1. Jedi Knight Fett

    Jedi Knight Fett Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Feb 18, 2014
    I agree but if it was that way I would still think Rex would win against Padme.
     
  2. Lord_Anzeroth

    Lord_Anzeroth Jedi Master star 4

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    Mar 2, 2013

    Oh definitely. But Jabba the Hut is winning against Pre Vizla.
     
  3. Lord_Anzeroth

    Lord_Anzeroth Jedi Master star 4

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    Mar 2, 2013
    This just occured to me...

    Imagine how different the whole tone of the series would be if the CIS did not have a droid army, but a proper one like the Republic did (not clones though).
    First, TCW would be a lot darker; killing soulless droids is one thing but killing men and women who have families and are actual human beings is another.
    Secondly, if there were episodes like Rookies or Arc Squad for the CIS army as well, but shown as objectively as possible, I'd say there would be quite a number of fans taking a liking to the CIS as well.

    Just a thought though...
     
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  4. Sokolniki

    Sokolniki Jedi Knight star 1

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    Jan 7, 2014

    Only because Jabba rigged the voting.
     
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  5. TaradosGon

    TaradosGon Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Feb 28, 2003

    That only works if they tell stories from the CIS' view, IMO. Because the Imperials didn't have a droid army, they were all enlistees and draftees, and yet I never cared. I didn't think the OT was any darker with stormtrooper enlistees getting gunned down vs. droids. It's all about tone - acting, music, the way a scene is shot. And so when something happens like Alderaan gets destroyed in the OT, it's not dark at all IMO, even though the implication is that millions/billions of people just died. Compare that to something like Anakin slaughtering the Tuskens, which due to the acting, music, and its personal nature, comes across as far darker, IMO.

    I don't think giving the CIS an army of volunteers would have changed anything, unless Filoni had accompanied that decision with creating the proper tone.
     
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  6. Lord_Anzeroth

    Lord_Anzeroth Jedi Master star 4

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    Mar 2, 2013
    I always though the Imperial Army was in essence the same as being a droid army (not in terms of skill) in the eyes of the viewers. Hundreds of stormtroopers, wearing the same white armor, no facial expressions....it really is hard to care. They are almost the same as being droids, with the exception that droids were funnier in the TWC :D. On the contrary the Rebels did not wear full-face helmets; and that's why they left an impression to the viewer.
    Imagine the CIS volunteer army as being the same as the rebel army. That by itself would be enough IMO, to make the show a tiny more darker. If it was accompanied by episodes revolving around the CIS army as well, then war in TCW would be much more darker.
     
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  7. Seerow

    Seerow Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 7, 2011
    Reminds me again of my old supervisor whom I had a convo about TCW with. He watched with his son and for the heck of it I asked him what he through of the violence. He said he didn't mind it, most of the times its just robots killing robots referring to the Clone Troopers as being just white robots. He literally despite everything thought they and probably the Storm Troopers as well were just androids.
     
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  8. Sgt Crowfield

    Sgt Crowfield Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Jul 27, 1999
    Tsk, people ^^. I even empathize with my Roomba.
     
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  9. Lord_Anzeroth

    Lord_Anzeroth Jedi Master star 4

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    Mar 2, 2013

    [face_rofl] [face_rofl]
     
  10. cwustudent

    cwustudent Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Apr 25, 2011
    Ha! My friend's little sis thought the stormtroopers were robots, because "their backs say 'ON.'" :oops:

    [​IMG]
     
  11. Cevan

    Cevan Jedi Knight star 4

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    Mar 16, 2013

    If you think about it though, his rule as Emperor did bring peace to the galaxy. The war had finally come to an end, and his enemies (the Jedi) had been mostly wiped out. The remaining ones went into hiding and, for the most part, weren't a threat. He did actually do some good for the galaxy, but the way he went about it can be seen as a bit twisted.
     
  12. Vader'sGoodHand

    Vader'sGoodHand Jedi Master star 3

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    Apr 1, 2014
    This might have been talked about but I was rewatching the OT. Makes me appreciate Anakin's plan to use the carbonite to sneak on to the ship as a throwback to the OT
     
  13. Seerow

    Seerow Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 7, 2011
    Hey, I empathize with my car. My car's smiling grill and big anime eye headlamps gives it such an innocent expression. But I'm a Florida driver and I'm a master at running over curbs. -shrug-

    Stormtroopers and Clone Troopers have stoic looking helmets, compared to droids like R2 who somehow manages to seem friendly despite having nothing resembling a face. They do have a certain robot look to them so its easy to see where adults who've somehow lived under a rock and little kids might mistake them for evil little versions of 2-XL.

    I think TCW used that to push some of brutal clone deaths far as they did. I'm glad they did because it empathized the hell on any world war is. Clones getting shot point blank in the face, decapitated, cut in half, getting eaten, getting their backs broken over Krell's knees, having their guts stomped out them by Grievous with a squishy sound to go with it. That's not to say TCW didn't do some bad things to non clones like Adi Gallia and Vizla.
     
  14. Contessa

    Contessa Jedi Master star 3

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    Nov 28, 2013
    Not even surprised anymore to see people trying to excuse slavery and oppression because the "good guys" are the ones doing the oppressing. Still grossed the **** out, but not surprised. Oh but hey, it's no big deal because the rushed as **** movies didn't have anybody say that they were uncomfortable with cloned slaves outloud. It's obviously cool, nothing to worry about. A problem isn't a problem as long as nobody says it's a problem, right?
     
  15. Seerow

    Seerow Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 7, 2011
    That's shaky ground for sure. The Republic found itself as suddenly in a war for existence as it could have. A volunteer army would be ideal, even if there were time would people volunteer? The Republic is not a country but seems to be more like a collection of countries loosely allied together under a senate. Each planet seems to have its own army, its own government, its own sense of nationalism. To a man on Planet Bob a war on Geonosis probably seems a million miles away and he feels its not really his direct problem since its not.

    It may be difficult to get enough enlistments or to get forces from one planet to fight in battles on the other side of the galaxy. I can't imagine how hard it would be to try and instigate a mandatory draft and start calling numbers even in a do or die situation. People tend not to get it unless they are literally under the gun. Either way it takes time to train and organize a big army. I bet the droid army would have mowed such an army down.

    The Republic needed a big, well trained army immediately. This Clone army dropped in their laps. The best qualified to lead them was the Jedi who decide as guardians of the Republic since whenever they are going to lead this army of clones, slaves, products to keep it together. Its a compromise in all the worst ways. But there wasn't a whole lot of options. Well played, the clones are living bodies for the Jedi to bond with and trust as good men because even after learning the trust surrounding the creation of the clone army the Jedi taught these soldiers like righteous shadows of their order.

    The Jedi became a corrupt organization, in a sense because they didn't have a choice but then again no one forces anyone to do anything. They were arrogant, blind, and have the list of priorities wrong. The order should go 1. Devotion to the force, 2. Keep the peace. ...I don't feel the republic should go in this list. I damn sure don't think public image should be on the list anywhere, even at number 1000. I can't imagine the Jedi sitting there responding to every complaint on space Twitter like: "@JediCouncil No power again. I ******* hate the Jedi #jedisuck #ineed2rethinkmylife."

    Shaak Ti demonstrates this by getting down on the Kominoans level to argue property and she fails to protect Fives figuring no ones going to just mess with the Jedi. It tore them apart from the inside. Yeah using a slave army is bad. It was supposed to be. The Jedi are responsible for their fate and yet they aren't. Its a paradox.
     
  16. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

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    Mar 4, 2011
    As far as I'm concerned...if we want to discuss the ethics of using a clone army, let's discuss it, and for the most part I'm going to agree with you, breeding clones for the sole purpose of fighting in a war is really, really bad. Cloning humans in the GFFA is apparently not bad in and of itself (as terrible as it would be in our world) but for that purpose, yeah, it's bad.

    Where I've taken serious issue in the discussion so far is with the idea that it's all the Jedi's fault. It's not Palpatine's fault because he's Palpatine and he's supposed to be bad; hell, he can't even be held responsible for ordering the Jedi to lead the army above Mace Windu's protests because he's a Sith and he's supposed to want the Jedi to die. It's the Jedi's fault if they allow themselves to be put themselves in a position to be held responsible for the war and subsequently be killed, right?

    It's not the Senate's fault even though they voted to give Palpatine emergency powers hence enabling the clone army to be used, because they are politicians and are supposed to be corrupt. It has to be all the Jedi's fault, because the Jedi did not force everyone else in the Republic to behave in the right way, because they "allowed" the use of the army.

    What?

    As far as serving the Force and not the Republic, I don't even know what that means, but I'm pretty sure that the reason the Jedi as an organization is allowed to exist is due to its service to the Republic. The Force doesn't keep the lights on and the water running in the Temple.

    I think there would be much more agreement in the discussion about cloned soldiers being a terrible idea if such discussion didn't always end with "And it's all the Jedi's fault!"
     
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  17. TaradosGon

    TaradosGon Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Feb 28, 2003
    Well, it's creation was A Jedi's fault, but not the fault of the Jedi Order. Sifo-Dyas, a Jedi, predicts a war is coming and instead of raising an army (10 years is PLENTY of time to raise an army), he puts an order in for a clone army that will take 10 years to be combat ready. Considering that the Republic and Empire have the money and infrastructure to turn out massive cruisers and thousands of starfighters, and then render them obsolete within a handful of years only to be replaced by something bigger and better (in real life, you are not going to see military equipment evolve so rapidly over the course of three years, there are contracts and it takes a long time to build this stuff. A cruiser might undergo refit to be updated with improved equipment, but the lifespan of a class of cruisers, firearms and planes is usually decades, not a few years).

    So obviously the infrastructure of the SW Galaxy is just a sight to behold to be able to churn all this equipment out so rapidly to meet I suppose a contract quote in so short of time as to then be able to enter a new contract for something better. I would have no doubt that, if an army were greenlit, academies and training camps could be set up around the galaxy within a year, if not quicker, and recruits could be trained within weeks. Instead of Dooku and Sifo-Dyas investing in privately owned facilities of this kind and having an army on hand in a year or two, they go the route of a 10 year wait. This makes sense for Dooku, since he needs time to rally the Outer Rim territories into a state of agitation to a degree that they would be willing to fight and secede, but that makes little sense to me from the view point of Sifo-Dyas, if he senses impending danger.

    He, as a Jedi, did not seem to care. The rest of the Jedi Order really didn't seem to care. They cared insofar as an army was built under their noses and they were concerned by their inability to sense such things, but they didn't seem at all concerned with the ethics of it.

    Padme didn't argue the ethics of it at all, she argued the strain it was putting on the people of her planet.

    Shaak Ti is actually kind of an awful person if all the more she does is change her rhetoric, but not her attitude. It's like she's basically saying "These aren't droids, they're people! Oh, but I'll need 500,000 more of them."

    I don't know which is worse, seeing them as subhuman creations that don't have rights due to their genetic modification and artificial creation. Or fully recognizing them as sentient, human beings in your eyes, but still throwing money at Kamino to make more.

    It's not all the fault of the Jedi. Palpatine and the Senate are the ones to blame for voting its use. But the characters that are supposed to be the paragons of virtue: the Jedi, Padme and Bail, don't acknowledge it at all. And just because it wasn't addressed in the films, doesn't excuse TCW for not addressing it. When you have episodes to spend on a mad doctor on Naboo, the droids/Wizard of Oz, and Jar Jar/Mace & the Temple of Doom, this topic could have easily have been addressed had Lucas or Filoni chose to. And really, how hard would it have been to throw a couple sentences of dialogue into AOTC about one or more of the Jedi being extremely uneasy about using the army and that it amounts to slavery?

    I recall in high school biology class watching a video on cloning and that cloning the perfect soldier was kind of an application that cloning could be used for (as was cloning essentially cloning human bodies, without brains (or functional brains), to be able to use the rest of the organs for harvest. And the video closed with the mentioning that cloning could help a lot of people, but that there are ethical questions surrounding it and that we kind of have to decide if it's worth it from a moral standpoint. Considering Lucas' Buddhist/Methodist religious sentiment and the black and white morality he tries to convey, I would think that he sits in the "it's wrong" camp (but maybe not). But if so, I find it curious that he left it to any kind of ambiguity and didn't go to greater lengths to show how wrong it is.

    Because while the Jedi don't shoulder all blame, they definitely are enabling the Republic. And if they are to be villified or shown as morally corrupt... then who exactly are the good guys of the PT era supposed to be?
     
  18. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

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    Mar 4, 2011
    Cloning from a real-life standpoint really creeps me out, but as it's obviously been an accepted practice for a long period of time in the GFFA, I don't get into my personal opinion of the practice in Earth terms when I'm watching the show.

    To use another example, it would be evening-news-worthy if someone chopped off an arm in a bar in our world, but it warrants a shrug and a "whatever" when it happens in Star Wars.

    As far as "paradigms of virtue," I hold all characters to the same standard. I don't believe that the Senate or Palpatine gets a pass for behaving in an unethical matter because they are not Jedi, and I certainly don't believe that the Jedi should get more heat for "allowing" the clone army to be used than Palpatine or the Senate get for ordering it in the first place.

    As far as Sifo-Dyas, as Mace said, he ordered the army without the consent of the Council. And IIRC he was under Dooku and Sidious' influence.

    I do wish Yoda had taken some investigative action as Obi-Wan did when prompted by the assassination attempt on Padme, as opposed to wasting time and energy muttering about the Dark Side clouding everything. But apparently meditating had given them answers before. The worst I can label the Jedi is naive and a little too comfortable with their own status quo--which had worked for them for a millennia.
     
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  19. Vader'sGoodHand

    Vader'sGoodHand Jedi Master star 3

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    Apr 1, 2014
    100% agree on your view of Yoda. For him being the overall Jedi Lord he was very hands off in a lot of aspects through the Clone Wars and the PT. That may have to do a lot with George Lucas not wanting that character to be developed. It seemed that Mace had more influence over the council than Yoda did which had me scratching my head. In regards to the Jedi being naive, I think it was not the fact that they were naive but just moved away from what "Jedi" were considered in millennia past which were advisors/negotiators and keepers of the peace(which is why I loved when Old Ben was constantly negotiating with the enemy). They got turned into gladitors but that was taken advantage of and pushed by Palpatine.
     
  20. Lord_Anzeroth

    Lord_Anzeroth Jedi Master star 4

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    Mar 2, 2013


    This has been proven wrong by two posts (here and here) by Iron_Lord a while back, regarding the morality and ethical issues behind the creation and the use of the clone army by two Jedi: Yoda and Obi-Wan Kenobi.

    I will quote:

    "Would you care to inspect the final product now?" the Prime Minister asked, and Obi-Wan could hear excitement in his voice. Clearly he was proud of this accomplishment. "I would like your approval before you take delivery."
    The callousness of it all stuck Obi-Wan profoundly. Units. Final product. These were living beings they were talking about. Living and breathing and thinking. To create clones for such a singular purpose, under such conditions, even stealing half their childhood for efficiency, assaulted his sense of right and wrong, and the fact that a Jedi Master had began all this was almost too much for him to digest."

    “Remembering the Kaminoan cloning facility, its bright white sterility, its impersonal care for the creatures it created so efficiently, so remarkably, so utterly without compunction, he repressed a shudder.
    Deep questions of morality and ethics do these clones raise. But answers, are there? Know that I do not. Override ethics our desperate need for them might.”

    So, it was a morality issue in the GFFA. Just because no one mentions it (for whatever reasons) does not mean it isn’t.

    Why do you say that? Just because Obi-Wan did it and no one protested? Being in a cantina in Mos Eisley, which, as Obi-Wan said, was a wretched hive of scum and villainy, will make people not frown upon a barfight, even if he lost a hand. Even if Obi-Wan had killed that person, the rest wouldn’t have even flinched. Why? Because they are in a city where violence, stealing and death is normal and not out of the ordinary.

    However, if the same thing happened in a bar in Coruscant, people would be shocked, horrified and definitely condemn such an action.
    So, chopping an arm off in a bar does not warrant as a shrug in Star Wars; only in certain planets or places.

    OK, that is your personal opinion and I respect that. However, there is no way for me not to disagree; not about the Senate or Palpatine, but about the Jedi.

    I agree with you that there should not be any kind of excuse for the Senate or Palpatine, or any politician to get a pass for being unethical. And I condone their actions for coming such unethical acts. However, I also expect them to keep on doing unethical acts, regardless of the morality of their choices. That does not mean that they are excused.

    The one that are not to be excused are, in fact, the Jedi (IMO). For me, the Jedi are supposed to be the example of people with the best ethical values. And if not of the highest morality, at least above the average. From my point of view, they should have protested for the use of slaves for fighting a war they did not even have a part in its outbreak.

    In my opinion, they are supposed to be paradigms of virtue, hence their Jedi Code. I will not analyse the way their Code shows that they are supposed to act as those of highest morality, but if you want to know, check this article on Wookieepedia.
     
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  21. Seerow

    Seerow Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 7, 2011
    Didn't Miraj point out in a sense the Jedi are slaves themselves?
     
  22. Lord_Anzeroth

    Lord_Anzeroth Jedi Master star 4

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    Mar 2, 2013

    Oh yeah she did.... Can't remember her reasoning behind it though. I'll have to rewatch this episode.
     
  23. Seerow

    Seerow Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 7, 2011

    Its an excellent arc. Miraj insinuates the Jedi are slaves to the Republic. And she and the Zygerrians are probably the really evil slavers people are looking for. The Jedi ever hit a button and dropped 3 dozen clones to their death.
     
  24. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

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    Mar 4, 2011
    Anzeroth2112 : LMAO. Iron_lord did not "prove" anything. He cited two book passages. Doing so does not mean that people who do not cite those book passages are "wrong."

    And by not condemning the Senate or Palpatine for ordering the use of the army, by saying that you "expect" them to behave in a way that is in your opinion unethical, and by directing so much animosity at the Jedi for "allowing" the use of the army--you are absolutely excusing Palpatine and the Senate and deflecting blame for their behavior to the Jedi.

    As far as Obi-Wan, he did chop off an arm in the Outlander Club on Coruscant. Try again.

    Also, no Wookieepedia link to the Jedi Code is going to convince me that they are supposed to be held to some ridiculous standard as disciplinarians for the Senators and Palpatine. The Senators and Palpatine are responsible for following a general moral code as well, and if they behave immorally, [ i]they[/i] are responsible--not the Jedi for "allowing" them to behave immorally.

    If "allowing" the clone army is bad, common sense/Occam's Razor dictates blaming the people who actually ordered its use.

    This thread has made it obvious that playing the scapegoat game with the Jedi is ridiculously popular though.
     
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  25. Cushing's Admirer

    Cushing's Admirer Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Jun 8, 2006
    I don't think all of us are painting the Jedi as Scapegoats, AFS. Some, like me, simply are saying the Jedi truly are part of their own problem and that they are suggested as the moral keepers of GFFA without truly showing it to be the case particularly on the issue of slavery with the clones.