Full Series The Yoda Arc (6.10-6.13) Discussion Thread

Mods, I understand that we're not supposed to double-post, but where there's no intervening post in two days, can we get a little leniency?

Okay, in brief: we've heard Dave Filoni say on Rebel Force Radio that he believed (and had dialogue written to the effect) that the Priestesses considered the Ones of Mortis to have a rather LIMITED view of the Force. Now that RFR has also interviewed Christian Taylor, who wrote the episodes (and I might add that they somewhat wasted the opportunity by not asking the best possible questions; for instance, I'm not terribly interested in Taylor's work on Teen Wolf, thank you very much...), I'm getting a sense of in what ways they were less than the Priestesses. It basically comes down to two major points as of this moment:

1.) The Ones are alive; the Priestesses are not. The Ones are still somewhat tied to the realm of living things, whether they've moved into that Force conduit or not (it's apparently not the same thing as "living between the realms;" it's possibly more like people moving into a high-rise condo that's WAY above their means and station - they live in it, but they're not to the manor born, and - as the arc showed - they can't stay there forever because something's got to give). The most obvious evidence of this is that they can still be killed (with the right tool). The Daughter is stabbed by the Dagger; the Father runs himself through with the same Dagger; the Son is run through with a lightsaber from behind. Of these, only the Father disappears upon death (we'll come back to that). The Priestesses have completely surmounted this problem of mortality and can always throw at you the old sobriquet: "You can't kill me; I'm already dead." By definition, they're more advanced than the Ones for this reason alone. But there's another one:

2.) The Ones are corruptible; the Priestesses are not. This is the one that Taylor specifically brought up in the RFR interview, and the evidence for this is equally obvious. There was much to-do in the Mortis arc about the Son becoming corrupted and falling to the dark side, and that's pretty clear evidence for the potential corruptibility of ALL the Ones. But the Priestesses seem to be entirely above corruption; they are essentially gatekeepers (that was Taylor's specific word, if I remember correctly). Sure, they'll offer opportunities for YOU to become corrupted when they test you for immortality-training, but they act like all this is beneath them. And if you're incorruptible, then again, by definition, you're above those who aren't.

And back to the Father for a moment: as I mentioned, he disappeared on death and the Son and Daughter did not. We must now take the next logical step. The Priestesses watch and study all who are strong in the Force in the universe; did they watch and study the Father (perhaps even before he WAS a father) at some unfathomably distant point in the past and choose him to receive the great gift himself? And were they as stingy about such gifts then as now, instructing the Father not to tell anyone else? It would account for why his Children couldn't disappear. Even if they were born and alive when - or if - this possibly happened, the Priestesses may have deemed them unworthy from the start.

 

I wonder who built the stairs inside the Dagobah cave. Perhaps the Sith once used the cave to torture people?

I wonder why the Priestesses would deem Daughter unworthy. She wouldn't harm anyone.

 

True enough, but there's a ton of Jedi out there right now in TCW who are nice people who wouldn't harm anyone - whom you'd THINK would deserve the great gift - and yet the Priestesses singled out all of two people out of an order of about ten thousand. Why? Dunno. And that's just the Jedi. Now imagine that it has to be just as bad, or even worse, for other mystical traditions. Why? Dunno. And that's the best answer I can give as to why they wouldn't deem the Daughter worthy: we just don't know. We know only that the Priestesses think the Ones are lesser than them, and within that can be found a myriad of made-up explanations.

 

It's possible that was left out of the episode because they wound up not liking the idea. Either way it's not part of the story. But I can see why the Priestesses would think that, and I think it's actually related to only two Jedi being picked. Yes, there were a lot of good, pure Jedi at the time of the PT, but as we know they basically all have a stick up their *** and are more worried about their rulebook than actually tapping into the will of the Force. Except, of course for Qui-Gon. He was he perfect choice for the Priestesses because he had a more unique view of and way of living with the Force than the rest of the Jedi, which the PT makes clear is why he's not on the Jedi Council. So that choice is easy to explain. Yoda is a bit trickier but not much. I think Qui-Gon was picked by the Priestesses alone, but since he could not complete the training before his abrupt death at the hands of Darth Maul they had him pick someone else, and then it was Qui-Gon who picked Yoda because he knew somewhere deep down in Yoda there was still someone more open-minded, the OT Yoda inside the PT Yoda.

 

Is there a reason that Qui-Gon sent Yoda to Dagobah or was it just a planet he randomly chose?

 

The dialogue leads the way: "It is one of the purest places in the galaxy." The apparent implication is that because it's so strong in the Force, it's one of the few places where Qui-Gon can appear to Yoda with his limited immortaility-training (only on Mortis, a conduit of the Force itself, could he appear completely). One could also make the case that Qui-Gon and the Priestesses knew Yoda would be able to crash there for twenty years between trilogies BECAUSE they knew how strong it was. Some of it must fall to conjecture, but I don't get the sense that a man with at least SOME access to infinite knowledge just chooses planets randomly.

 

so.....Korriban is now officially called Moriband?

 

An official source has said it is still Korriban in KOTOR, etc., but in the era of the films it's called Moriband. Of course, they have disregarded what official sources have said repeatedly over the years, so that basically means nothing. Unfortunately, I could very well see them calling it Moriband in a KOTOR-era side film to keep consistency for people who only know on-screen SW.

 

I wonder if the ghosts that circle around Yoda look like Sith who actually existed at one point.

 

Because we might confuse Coruscant and Korriban.

 

According to the man who made the main planet in his film Tatooine, never had it called by name on-screen in the film, but had a different planet called Dantooine named on-screen in the film.

 

I particularly enjoyed when Yoda must face "himself" and he realizes that no Jedi can purge the Dark Side. The taint of the Dark Side is in all force users and thus Jedi can only resist the allure of Bogan and as Yoda did, keep it under control.

 

According to the new Moraband profile on SW.com, the ghosts were all illusions created by the Priestesses. But this is still consistent with older lore like TOTJ, where a Sith spirit (Freedon Nadd) is coaxed from Chaos by a Force-sensitive (King Ommin) and declared as "not real" because he's a spirit. The Priestesses probably coaxed some long-dead Sith Warriors from one of the old Sith Empires back from Chaos.

So what we know to be Sith spirits all seem to depend on external factors to appear (Darth Bane, the Sith Warriors, whatever is in the cave on Dagobah etc.), while the lightside spirits can appear as independent agents (the Priestesses, Qui-Gon etc.). This is reinforced by the Freedon Nadd's spirit's obsession with regaining life and power from being alive.

 

Upon a rewatch, I have a couple questions about Sacrifice.

It seems that the Priestesses did inform Sidious of Yoda's presence, but that seems a bit strange. Why would they interfere in the war between Jedi and Sith? And wouldn't Sidious question who these strangers are?

Also, was it Sidious or Dooku who sensed Yoda's presence? Because while Sidious is the one who knows that Yoda is on Moraband, it's Dooku who seems to sense something about Yoda. Dooku looks like he's already sensed something when Sidious summons him to Coruscant.

How does Dooku get onto Coruscant anyways? That solar sailer of his must be listed in every Republic warship's computer as the personal vessel of Count Dooku.

 

Just because a ship is known doesn't mean it'll be shot out of the sky or that the owner, particularly as a Force-Sensitive doesn't know how to keep her hidden or pilot her.

 

I just assumed there were lots of sporty numbers landing on Coruscant all the time... It's not a massive leap to assume Dooku changes his reg plates from time to time.

 

I'm sure Dooku has access to all sorts of tricks, but it's still annoying that Anakin and Padme have to disguise themselves and take the bus to avoid detection, while Dooku flies around in his sweet droid-chauffeured personal ride for years and no one ever seems to know he's there.

 

The events in Sacrifice give Yoda's lines in ROTS more meaning. When he tells Obi-Wan, "To fight this Lord Sidious, strong enough, you are not." He's speaking from experience, because he's already faced Sidious once before, with Anakin by his side, and that turned out badly. Yoda kept having to rescue the unconscious Anakin who was no match for Darth Sidious. So when Yoda tells Obi-Wan that he's no match for Sidious, he's telling the truth.

Also, in the ROTS novel, Yoda says that "Make a Jedi fall, no one can, beyond even Lord Sidious this is." He's speaking from experience there too, because Sidious is clearly trying to make Yoda fall in this episode, and fails. So Yoda knows that Anakin chose to join the Sith of his own free will.

I thought having Yoda face Sidious before ROTS would cheapen their duel in the film, but it actually makes it better. Yoda does fairly well against Sidious in the astral duel, and it basically ends in a draw. That's why Yoda is so confident in his ability to defeat Sidious in ROTS. He thinks that since he managed to achieve a draw before, maybe he can defeat Sidious by sacrificing himself in battle.

 

According to the Databank, they're illusions created by the Priestesses, but also by the Dark Side itself. So, it's not all just the Priestesses doing. I think they did this to explain why the Dooku and Sidious would be alerted to his presence on their order's ancient homeworld.

And since the messenger droid is already sent by Sidious to his quarters, this implies that while Dooku senses his master, Sidious senses something as well, through the Dark Side. Since he doesn't have the bond with Yoda that Dooku has. The fact they're able to tell where it is, implies those Sith Warriors (and Darth Bane) were actual spirits/specters/apparitions that have a spiritual impact on the Force. A true illusion would simply be a trick of the eye.

 

I liked the episodes well enough, but i'm not overly happy with how they 'expanded' on the Force and ghosts. Mortis was good, and enough, in my opinion. I liked that there was some ambiguity on how one becomes a force spirit, and that for all the Jedi know, there is a 'normal' afterlife in the 'netherworld' of the force. It also somehow smacks of elitism.

Apparently you can stumble on the secret, as we have had force ghosts all over the EU that as far as we know never met the Priestesses, or went through their tests. Anakin certainly never did, and thats movie 'verse. So there is that.

I'm a big fan of the idea of continuation after death, especially for my 'heroes' in fantasy worlds, or even reincarnation at a push with the essence staying the same. The idea that all my favorite none-force using characters, Han, Chewie, Lando, Fett, Jan, ect, and even many of the Jedi and all the Sith, are all doomed to just dissipate into formless and self-less energy upon death is just... depressing, really. It doesn't exactly inspire me to enjoy the lore they are giving on the nature of the force. I preferred it when things were more vague and ambiguous. I still choose to think that the Jedi are incorrect on that matter, and leave it up in the air. The idea of making it a reward for Jedi only, and even then, only the extra-extra special ones who stumble on obscure knowledge, doesn't particularly warm me. It all still works fine if the method the Priestesses teach simply allows the dead to interact with the world around them, and are waxing poetic.

 

The problem is it doesn't seem so much like a gift and more of a duty. The ones who survive will apparently be doomed to wander the universe, remembering lore and dispensing it to future generations. Does this last forever, do they ever lose contact with living beings, since the majority will never see them? It seemed a bit more depressive, imho. There's also the part about non-secret users losing all identity in the Cosmic Force. If the Force retains the information about them and can relay it to others, does this mean a part of them remains? Is the Netherworld of the Force a state of unconsciousness with only historic info floating around?

 

...Not a smegging clue, chum. I chose to headcannon it to be a general afterlife, with hookers, and blackjack.

On the matter of it not being a gift, though, it sure beats nothingness. After all, a great deal of mans fear death seems to be a terrifying blend of the unknown and worry that there is nothing afterwards. Earth based stories often have reincarnation or western afterlives as a plot point or reward. Fantasy generally has other dimensions, realms of the deity worshipped in life, or some such. Lord of the Rings has Valinor for the Elves, the Halls for the Dwarves, and an 'unknown but great destiny' for Men. It dampens my enthusiasm to imagine that when Han finally goes down with his ship that he has oblivion awaiting him. That Anakin will never reunite with Padme. I'm a sap, what can I say?

I choose to believe that in their hubris at wielding the Force, the Jedi have come to believe that people lose their identities when they become one with it, and since they say so its the final say. Much like they portray through the films and EU. The 'Jedi Path' (now Legends though it is) has Luke disagreeing with a prominent Grand Master who shared the idea that 'there was no death, only the force' as only an allegory, considering he had actively talked with the dead. Qui-Gon as far as we know never met the Priestesses, so there is no explanation for how he achieved the formless continuation he did, unless i'm mistaken? Plus, the very idea of a Netherworld of the Force is closer to an afterlife than we had pre-RotS.

 

The impression I've always had is that people who don't ghost (except maybe darksiders) all merge into one big happy collective consciousness, not oblivion. Ghosting involves retaining your conscious individuality, not your existence.

 

I always thought the Sith can exist beyond death, but because of their willingness to survive in the physical realm they preserve themselves by attaching their spirits to physical, tangible objects such as tombs or weapons. In that way they can't exist as omnipresent beings like some Jedi.

 

That was a creation of the EU, which is no longer canon. The Sith cannot preserve their identity beyond death.