ST Who's The Baddie?

Yes, they are all options right now.

It may be they make the Plagueis story a literal ancient Sith legend and introduce a brand new Sith that was Plagueis' pupil that killed him and learned the secret to immortality.

 

Palpatine had no motive to lie about the name of his master. Palpatine did, however, have a motive to lie about his master's powers.

 

EXACTLY. This gave the writers freedom to retell the story of his character. Perhaps he's centuries old. That would make him ancient. Yoda was ancient. Perhaps Plagueis has cheated death numerous times. Maybe Palpatine did in fact kill Plagueis, but the body was lost when he resurrected himself. Why is that story line so unbelievable? It beats the heck out of an emperor clone & Imperial remnants.

 

If he was lying he most definitely had a motive to come up with a name. The story has more cred if you attribute it to someone specific. Imagine if he'd said "there was this guy who's name I can't remember, & he learned how to cheat death". Doesn't quite have the same ring to it. He also wanted to use the story to push Anakin towards becoming a Sith, so it makes sense for him to say that a Sith aka "Darth someone" learned this power.

 

I agree - as it stands they can choose to emphasise/re-imagine whatever elements they like. I always liked the idea that Palpatine himself was 'old' and that the Sith had an ability/desire to cling onto life in the mortal world... whereas the Jedi looked to retain identity in the netherworld. I think these elements (well I hope) are explored in the ST.

 

Most importantly, Plagueis would be the overarching villain of the saga which would tie in all of the movies. JJ is a smart dude and is going to want all 9 films to be one cohesive unit. It would also give them an opportunity to fulfill Lucas' vision of his original treatments with the "big baddie" not appearing until the final 3 films. Originally this was going to be Palpatine but Lucas decided to wrap up #6 with the fall of Palpatine and the Empire. Now that Palpatine is dead, we got that little tidbit about Plagueis in #3 and he will reveal himself in #7.

Back to JJ being a smart dude, one thing I know he'll do is tie up any loose ends that haven't already been tied up in TCW or the upcoming Rebels.

Needless to say, I'm excited about the latest rumors about Sydow's character. I know they're probably not true, but you never know. If there is anyone who can play a spooky character, its him.

 

What's that?

 

The Ancient Fear....

I like the idea of an ancient evil presence, returning. Not necessarily Sith, but something that had existed eons ago has now returned. I almost view Plagueis as not even being a Sith anymore, if he did in fact cheat death - he'd move on. He'd be his own thing now.

I like the notion of EP 7 being set up as an opposite ANH. Perhaps Luke in his search for Jedi knowledge awakened something, or learned about some other ancient evil once vanquished. I'm not quite digging the word Fear, though. It just doesn't roll off the tongue right way to me.

 

I'm becoming more & more convinced that the lines about Plagueis in Episode III was a loophole that George created just in case Episodes VII-IX ever happened (I doubt he had much to do with the EU stories about Plagueis). What do you think Disney bought? I love the idea. & now George goes to sleep every night in a pile of ca$h money.

 

In KoTOR, the Rakata existed centuries before the Jedi and Sith. But I honestly cannot see an ancient unknown empire returning in the ST. It wouldn't make sense. The only logical conclusion is a hidden power behind the scenes that was directly/indirectly guiding Sidious - maybe without him knowing it.

Only two probable Sith lords come to mind (that's if the Sith are the villains): Plagueis or Bane.

Bane might be a more interesting choice; his spirit on Moraband will always be a threat to the Jedi, corrupting anyone who dares venture to his tomb. The Sith would still be no more, prophecy protected, but the threat of them returning would remain. Could make a very interesting plot.

 

Well Abrams is a fan of Khan in Star Trek

 

No need to freak out yet, I think. Probably just a working title for now. Keep in mind it was originally Luke Starkiller and Revenge of the Jedi.

 

Agreed, I don't think the "To cheat death is a power only one has achieved" line is referenced to Maul in TCW or Darth Sion (is not cannon). Didn't Peter Mayhew have a clause in his RoTS contract for a potential EPVII? (that's what I remember reading); if it's true, then you might be correct about an apparent loophole.

 

Oh...don't you worry. I'm not. This title scoop was from AICN, a site that claimed EP 2 or 3, was going to be "The Creeping Fear". The same site that hasn't had a single real scoop in years. I'm not putting any real fear/faith in it at all.

Although, in the title thread some of my personal made up title guess had "Ancient" in them, so I'm particularly ok with that word.

 

^I'm so glad Luke was renamed Skywalker from Starkiller. It has a much less "evil" tone to it.

That being said, "The Ancient Fear" might aswell be changed into something even more clichée, like "The Fear Within" or "The Evil Within" or "An Evil Unrest"...

 

I agree - I remember a quote from way back when (ROTS production) which said the probable villain of a sequel trilogy would appear in Episode III. I can't remember who said it etc. but I always thought it referred to either Darth Vader/Palpatine's resurrection or General Grievous being re-fitted etc (back when the General appeared 'cool'). But of course, it can be argued that Plagueis was in fact ‘in’ Revenge of the Sith. And I could easily believe that Lucas always knew (well at least during production of the prequels) who the villain of a ST would eventually be.

 

I'll go and rewatch RoTS. If I see anything of interest, I'll post the scene and time in this thread

Regarding what I said about Peter Mayhew knowing about the possible ST during RoTS filming.

 

I too remember reading that somewhere...I know it was from a legit source though...

 

This rumor is far older, at the time of the Special editions and preproduction of EPI there was an article that said that one character from the PT would play a significant role in the ST. After the first teasers came out a lot of people were sure that Jar Jar would be the long lived alien that would bookend the whole saga, but after the release of TPM those theories were fast forgotten and buried deep

 

A couple of things (as always):

(1) Any story in books regarding Plaguis could simply be erased due to the new interpretation of "cannon". That is with exception of the novelization of ROTS.
(2) It would be very hard to write a villain who is MUCH worse than Palpatine yet takes MUCH LESS time to defeat him/her. That doesn't make the new villain much worse, does it?
(3) Plaguis creates continuity, even if through one line. He's connected to the resurgence of the Sith as well as Palpatine himself. Is Plaguis worse than Palpatine? If they can create a scenario where he's been around a LONG time, set up the rise and fall of Palpatine, and stayed in hibernation long enough to increase his powers and prevent his own death then yes, he is.

I'm 100% in favor of Plaguis as the enemy. I will even go as far to say I wouldn't mind some sort of Mandalorian super soldier, even a resurrected Fett, as an apprentice.

 

I think some of you are overthinking this whole Plagueis thing. Before the PT came out, everybody was certain it was a perfect opportunity for Lucas to tie everything up, like what's up with the cave on dagobah and everything. In the end, very little was tied up, or lazily so in the last 10 minutes (!!!) of Ep 3. The absolute worse being "I have failed and must go into exile". Cheaaaap. I remember people on this very forum, waiting for Ep 3, desperatly hoping that this one, at last, would bring some answers and not more questions. Eventually Lucas kept piling things up until we forgot.

I don't think Abrams cares about harmonizing the whole 9 films, because the PT isn't harmonized the slightest with the OT. The PT is completely different kind of films, which Abrams doesn't have to acknowledge because his movies take place after the OT, and most importantly because eps 1 to 3 are just not that good. The reason he's not going with Plagueis is because no one knows who Plagueis is, he was just a character created for the purpose of one scene, which you guys seem to forget : he was a writing tool for Lucas. Not a hint at future films. and even if Abrams did go Plagueis, no one would be like "Oh look, he took inspiration from the PT, how cool !" I know I wouldn't. I expect him to take as many distances from the PT as Lucas has from the OT.

Besides, very few people care about mythology and Star Wars continuity. They are movies first and foremost. I know I think otherwise, you do too, JJ does too. But the fact is he's making a movie for everyone, and pleasing the hardcore fans isn't a priority ever in Hollywood. It's ALWAYS distant hints at best.

EDIT don't think it's easy to write a film, let alone if you're just filling the blanks. That's a recipe for disaster. The script should invent its own rules, that's the only way you can get a script written in a few months.

 

Palpatine could just as easily have been responsible for his own undoing without someone behind the scenes pulling the strings. After Palpatine tried to kill Plagueis in his sleep, perhaps the former master felt it best to move on & see how things played out.

Plagueis could have easily seen it coming. Most apprentices have discussed dispatching their master. It's the nature of the Sith:

~Vader tells Luke they can overthrow the Emperor & rule the galaxy as father & son.
~Dooku discusses destroying the Sith with Obi Wan
~Anakin tells Padme they can rule the galaxy together

 

And in the EU, sometimes they discuss it with the Master:

Darth Bane: Path of Destruction:

"One day I will surpass you," Zannah warned him. "And on that day I will kill you, Lord Bane. But that day is not today."

Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader:

"Perhaps you're not enjoying your new station in life, is that it? Perhaps you tire already of executing my commands." Sidious stared at him. "Perhaps you think you're better suited to occupy the throne than I am. Is that it, Lord Vader? If so, then admit as much!"
Breathing deeply, Vader remained silent for a moment more. "I am but an apprentice. You are the Master."
"Interesting that you refrain from calling me your Master."
Vader inclined his head to Sidious. "I meant nothing by it, my Master. "
Sidious sneered. "Perhaps you wish you could strike me down, is that it?"
"No, Master."
"What stops you from doing so? Obi-Wan was once your Master, and you were certainly prepared to kill him. Even if you failed."
Vader clenched his right hand. "Obi-Wan did not understand the power of the dark side."
"And you do?"
"No, Master. Not yet. Not fully."
"And that's why you don't try to strike me down? Because I possess powers you lack?" Sidious lifted his arms, hands deployed like claws, as if to summon and hurl Sith lightning.
"Because you know that I could easily overwhelm the delicate electrical systems of your suit."
Vader stood his ground. "I don't fear death, Master."
Sidious grinned maliciously. "Then why go on living, my young apprentice?"
Vader looked down at him. "To learn to become more powerful."
Sidious lowered his hands. "Then I ask you one final time, Lord Vader. Why not strike me down?"
"Because you are my path to power, Master," Vader said. "Because I need you."
Sidious narrowed his eyes and nodded. "Just like I needed my Master - for a time."
"Yes, Master," Vader said finally. "For a time."