Saga Most powerful Jedi/Sith

I'm sure there is another thread but I did not see it. But my kids are really getting into Star Wars. And they're always asking me who is more powerful between X and Y? Who would win a fight between A and B? And it's really hard to answer objectively.

Because in the movies you have scenarios like Obi-wan defeating everyone he faces except he gets destroyed by Dooku twice -> Anakin beating Dooku -> Obi-wan beating Anakin.

I would like to know people's opinions on this and if you would some OBJECTIVE reasoning. I guess if I were to start it off I would have to do something like this:

1. Mace Windu - only person to defeat the Emperor (not counting when the emperor was like 174 years old)

2. Sidious - pummeled Yoda

3a. Dooku - defeated Obi-wan twice with ease.

3b. Yoda - I would say his and Dooku's fight was as close to a tie as you could have.

4. Obi-wan - defeated Maul, Grievous, Vader in his prime.

5. Vader - hard to defend this as he defeated Dooku. But I feel like I have to put him behind Obi-wan. But I could totally agree with the argument that Obi-wan defeated him with intelligence not because he was more powerful.



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Well.. this could spark a big debate. What you are not seeing is experience vs power/potential.

Obi-wan was able to defeat Anakin because Obi-wan's experience getting the high ground. Anakin only lost because of his arrogance and pride. Doesn't mean he wasn't more powerful then Anakin.

Also, Anakin/Vader was only in his early twenties vs a 40's Obi-Wan who was at the peak of his power.

Which brings me to Luke, In the matter of 4years. Luke was able to learn the force, defeat Vader in ROTJ and withstand the power/influence of the Emperor.

To me, Luke would be the most powerful Jedi/Sith of them all. With limited training, and time, He had already defeated the sith's most powerful.



So, list

1. Luke
2. Anakin/Vader
3. Sidous and Yoda tied
4. Dooku
5. Obi-Wan

 

Can't argue the Vader point. But I find it hard to put Luke up there unless you're looking at JUST potential. Because I don't see him anywhere close to Windu or the Emperor in his prime. He beat an old half machine Vader. But potentially he could be. We will see in about 18 months! I really do hope we get to see an uber powered Like.


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You wouldn't put Windu on your list at all?


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The point is, Luke did it in 4 years...and still withstood the Emperor and Vader.. Not to mention in the O.T the Emperor for-saw Luke destroying him if he couldn't be turned/killed.

Thus making to me, Luke the most powerful.

I wouldn't put Mace on this list, because I think the Emperor forsaw Anakin coming to Mace's aid and was really baiting Mace, thus making the turn of Anakin most promising.

I don't feel like Mace was a threat to the Emperor. It was Yoda he was threaten by.

Edit: in other words: I feel like the Emperor let "mace win" to goad Anakin further into the Darkside.. if the Emperor just killed Mace, Anakin would have fought the Emperor, but letting that battle play out and being "helpless" that and Anakin's need to save Padme, Anakin then aided the Emperor. If the Emperor just killed Mace, then all of the Jedi would have gone after Him.. Including Anakin because Anakin was confused but still had a weird morality.

It was the Emperor being helpless, unarmed, and the need to save Padme that lead him to the darkside.

 

But I don't feel Luke withstood the emperor. I think the emperor really had his way with him. Vader intervened. Without Vader, Luke would have died. But again all up for interpretation. Can't wait to find out what Luke can learn in 30 years.


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Well a few points:
The Emperor couldn't lure him into the Darkside. Luke Outwitted him
The Emperor should have killed him with the force lighting. Remember Dooku straight up knocking out Anakin in AOTS? How was Luke able to withstand that much force lighting being knocked around while his father was tossed like a doll ? Granted Anakin was only 15 or so.. but still Anakin was thrown across the room and knocked out. Only Yoda was able to absorb the force lighting from Dooku and the Emperor.. Luke did too.. albeit with his own body.
Also, Luke it seems was willing to sacrifice himself for his Father. Luke for-saw/hoped his Father would turn. Again, outwitting the Emperor. Luke threw his lightsabre.

Not to mention look how weakened the Emperor was when he force lighting himself off of Mace's lightsabre. Luke bounced right back from it.

Edit: Not to mention, Mace got ruined by the Emperor's force lighting and was thrown out a window. Its amazing to me how Luke even withstood the Emperor at all.

 

I can't argue with any of that. In my view I always though of the emperor as old an fragile at that point. Not anywhere close to what he was 30 years before.


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What does it mean to be 'most powerful' in the Force? Fastest lightsaber moves? Most accuracy with Zener card reading? Heaviest thing levitated? Greatest quantity of lightning thrown?

If we're talking fighting, it seems to me that most of the fights have less to do with skill or raw power than mindset. The dark side probably nearly always wins in terms of straight, raw power, and Palpatine is probably as 'strong' as that gets (unless faced with someone like Yoda, who is also versed in sorceror's ways). But the weaknesses of dark siders do show themselves too, mainly through bravado and overconfidence: pride goeth before a fall.

I'd venture to say that might be a more important theme than x > y, y > z.

 

For me, it depends how you define 'power'. I don't think Vader was much powerful at all. He was selfish and angry. I'd say Luke then Dooku for their insight and not denying the depth and reality of emotion. Likewise for realising the old Order had it wrong.

 

You don't need insight, depth and emotion when you have charts!



1. I don't know where Grievous goes. In the middle, maybe?
2. Hard to figure where Clone Wars characters might belong, since so few of their fights end decisively. I just threw Ahsoka in with her boss.
3. I'm assuming Maul migrated to a different circle after his junkyard stay. Possibly TCW Maul and Savage both belong with Obi-Wan and Luke?
4. Anakin was able to beat young Luke, and Dooku was able to beat young Anakin, because of a disparity in experience. Both times, the young guys seem to give a good account of themselves.
5. In this chart, the Jedi are correct that Mace is the first choice against Sidious and Yoda second choice, while Obi-Wan is the right choice to beat Vader.

 

Both a difficult to answer. If you mean the most powerful duelist, then Mace Windu and Obi Wan are contenders. If you mean in the Force, able to wield it and do many diverse things, then Yoda is the greatest.

For the Sith, Sidious seems the obvious choice, but I would argue that Darth Bane and Darth Plaugeis are contenders.

My Jedi pick is Anakin Skywalker (He slays Asajj Ventress, Count Dooku, and Palpatine, even if he is caught by surprise).

My Sith pick is Darth Plaugeis, because he obvious discovered like Qui-Gon, a secret of the Force that few know about.

 

Great points by all. I'm enjoying the charts and conversations. I wouldn't put Grevious anywhere on these lists honestly. I never understood why Jedi have so much trouble with him. He has no force powers. Why can't they just throw him around with the force like they do to other droids? I haven't seen a lot of TCW so if there is an explanation for this I would be grateful.


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Are we talking EU as well Summers1913 or just the movies and TCW?

 

I would say overall. Everyone has their own opinions as well as where they draw those opinions from. I would say no limits.


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1. Luke Skywalker - It's canon
2. Yoda - He's better than Mace, he just got unlucky while fighting Sidious
3. Mace Windu - He beat Sidious
4. Darth Sidious - Most powerful Sith Lord of all time
5. Darth Plagueis - Luceno stated that if TPM Sids fought Plagueis, Plagueis would have won. Also his skill and speed with the lightsaber awed even Darth Tenebrous.

 

Mace was really good. He was officially the second in AotC


(5:30)

In RotS ;

Jedi :
1_2 -) Yoda or Windu
3 -) Obi-Wan

In AotC ;

Jedi :
1 -) Yoda
2 -) Windu

And Luke probably become strong as RotS Obi-Wan in RotJ timeline.

 

Counting only the ones from the 6 movies that fought, I think it goes like this:

1. Darth Sidious/Palpatine
2. Yoda (prequel trilogy)
3. Mace Windu
4. Luke Skywalker (RotJ)
5. Darth Vader (original trilogy)
6. Anakin Skywalker/Darth Vader (RotS)
7. Count Dooku/Darth Tyranus
8. Obi-Wan Kenobi (AotC/RotS)
9. Darth Maul
10. Qui-gon Jinn
11. Anakin Skywalker (AotC)
12. Obi-Wan Kenobi (TPM)
13. Obi-Wan/Ben Kenobi (ANH)
14. Luke Skywalker (TESB)

 

Darkslayer, Darth Plagueis was assassinated in his sleep by Sidious. This cowardly way of dispatching Plagueis, proves that Palpatine was afraid of his power or else he would have challenged him in a greater contest of power. Then again, Sith tend to wait tell your guard is down or you are weak to strike, which if you think about it, means they are not so powerful. If they must wait tell a Jedi or fellow Sith is depleted of strength to gain victory, then they obviously do not have the power they think they do. Granted, I know this is the Sith Way and they see any victory as proof that the Dark Side is stronger. But logically, they are weaker.

 

Is this canon anymore?

 

Yes. Sidious says it in ROTS

 

Well, he says that Darth Plagueis' apprentice did it, he never said that he was that apprentice.

 

Really? The whole scene was set up to imply that he was the one who did it.

 

Implying isn't a confirmation though. He says that he is a legend of the Sith that even the Jedi are supposed to know, but don't talk about. Maybe he was his master, maybe he was a Sith of the distant past, maybe he never even existed and made up the whole story to seduce Anakin.

 

Sadly you are correct. I really enjoyed the Plagueis book.