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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

A&A The Official Jason Fry Discussion Thread

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Havac , Oct 4, 2012.

  1. Starkeiller

    Starkeiller Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 5, 2004
    There's history and culture everywhere.

    Coruscant actually needs a healthy dose....
     
  2. GrandAdmiralJello

    GrandAdmiralJello Comms Admin ❉ Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque star 10 Staff Member Administrator

    Registered:
    Nov 28, 2000
    When I say history and culture, I mean just that. Not the examination of primitive practices that anthropologists can engage in. That's culture by analogy -- practices and doings of peoples. Similarly, the mere recitation of their doings isn't history.

    There's culture and history on Coruscant -- though as you note we could stand to see more if it -- but there isn't any on Tatooine.

    A mere catalogue of information does not constitute history or culture, no matter what those hipster Rimkin scholars think.

    Next we'll be calling Voren Na'al a historian! LOL.

    Edit: that's not to say that primitive ruins and practices aren't entertaining or worth an expedition or two. But aside from collecting artifacts to support a few sentences at a dinner party... what's the point of those worlds? Rawmat, I guess.

    I mean -- what's Bestine to Monument Plaza?? That's real history. Architecture.


    Missa ab iPhona mea est.
     
  3. Starkeiller

    Starkeiller Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 5, 2004
    I disagree. There's a crapload of both history and culture on Tatooine. But by that logic, there would be no analogues to SW worlds in the real world, because I can't think of any place that isn't groaning under thousands of years of history and culture, especially in Europe.
     
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  4. MercenaryAce

    MercenaryAce Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 10, 2005
    ....I really hope that is all internet persona stuff.
     
  5. GrandAdmiralJello

    GrandAdmiralJello Comms Admin ❉ Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque star 10 Staff Member Administrator

    Registered:
    Nov 28, 2000
    Merc, that would be peering behind the curtain.


    Well, first, that's not a very effective counter argument. That would be like saying that Yao Ming is short next to a T-Rex -- context is relevant. Using the same standards uncritically to vastly different circumstances is unhelpful. Adumar was backwards in the GFFA, but it makes the first world of Earth look positively primitive.

    You also mistake quantity for quality. Nomads may and often do have a very long tradition but that doesn't mean that they have history that they may have superstitions does not mean they have culture.

    A land of farmers, miners, and assorted desert denizens is definitionally uncultured. They simply don't produce anything of value.

    While I don't doubt that there's history somewhere in the Rim, you actually have to search high and low to find it. Most of it, though, is matters of curiosity. Consider the quaint customs of the Jawa, for instance. One may well find diversion in examining their ways and mores but elevation? Scarcely imaginable.

    Coruscant, Grizmallt, Anaxes, Alderaan, Atrisia, Shawken, etc have contributed to galactic civilization. They create great works that demonstrate the highest aspirations of humanity. They are the heart if the galaxy, or the arteries by which history and progress travel. They influence worlds and events.

    Nobody's ever heard of Tatooine, though. Were it not for Luke Skywalker making casual references to local geography commonplace, it would basically have no impact on galactic affairs.

    Putting it another way, Big Earl's Burger Joint may have a ton of storied local significance. It may even be 500 years old. But it wouldn't be a UNESCO World Heritage Site. Italy and China have more of those than Arkansas.


    Missa ab iPhona mea est.
     
  6. LelalMekha

    LelalMekha Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Oct 29, 2012
    If not, it sounds way too much 19th century for my liking.
     
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  7. Starkeiller

    Starkeiller Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 5, 2004
    Context is important, but I don't necessarily agree that using the same standards for human culture and history across the globe is that uncritical.

    And one may indeed find elevation in studying the works of simple people. Seeing hand stencils in an Australian cave can elevate the spirit as much as visiting Delphi can. Nothing in Dubai or Abu Dhabi can, though, despite the level of technical sophistication on display.

    What I'm saying is that even very simple works can demonstrate the highest aspirations of humanity, and can be found throughout the world.
     
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  8. GrandAdmiralJello

    GrandAdmiralJello Comms Admin ❉ Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque star 10 Staff Member Administrator

    Registered:
    Nov 28, 2000
    If we're trying to talk about me instead of of discussing Star Wars, I'd suggest that it's a little too off-topic for this thread. If you want to speculate about which Jello is the real Jello, the social thread might be better for that.

    But to address that comment very very briefly: a certain brand of scholarship -- though present orthodoxy -- should not be presumed to be the only appropriate school of thought. Engage ideas on their own terms and if you can, defeat them critically, but don't throw around labels. That doesn't accomplish anything except intellectual stagnation. Whether or not my posts here are in pantomime, I definitely believe in critically engaging with ideas I disagree with. In doing so, I might learn something.

    Now to the actual on-topic stuff: What I'm positing is that it is reckless to equate Alderaan with Tatooine in terms of significance. The two are not the same, and as much as the setting likes to focus on a planet that's overexposed in the EU to a level that contradicts what we're told about the planet robs us of the chance to develop other worlds which are supposed to have richer histories IU but appear as just names OOU. The attachment to filmic worlds is not merely creatively uninspired but leaves the galaxy impoverished too.

    Combine that with the boring "everybody in the Core is a rich fancy pants aristo who abuses poor people" and it's just tedious. Little wonder folks like Merc find the Core boring. What about folk traditions? WEG alluded to long held local cultural differences that not even Imperial Coruscantification could annihilate. The old civilizations of Europe and Asia have outstanding folk traditions alongside their high cultural output -- why don't we see that for the Core Workds? Why must the the Rim be the only place with local color.


    Missa ab iPhona mea est.

    Starkeiller

    Edit: I was saying that using GFFA standards to earth is uncritical. :p

    But may I suggest that what you're saying is actually that you don't want to apply the same standards. You're arguing for subjectivity and not objectivity. Thus, you would actually want to emphasize context: the context of cave paintings in their society and what they represent for those people. Or the context of Tusken tribal rituals in their nomadic history and what it represents for them etc.

    Therefore the relevance of history is what it says about said people and how it speaks to the viewers (or consumers, or imbibers) of said culture.

    Whether I agree with it or not -- I'll let that stay a mystery -- I'm very familiar with that school of scholarship. :p
     
  9. Starkeiller

    Starkeiller Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 5, 2004
    What I meant was that, regardless of what the works signify to the people who made them, they can achieve objective value if they can emotionally engage people divorced from the milieu of their creation. I'm actually arguing for objectivity.
     
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  10. GrandAdmiralJello

    GrandAdmiralJello Comms Admin ❉ Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque star 10 Staff Member Administrator

    Registered:
    Nov 28, 2000
    But that's as subjective as subjective can be. It depends on the individual viewer and individual response (and moreover people respond differently.). It's also aesthetics rather than history, anthropology, or related disciplines -- if this is your argument, then yes it's different from the school of thought I was referring to above but it's also a different realm of study too.

    It's also even further removed from the topic of planets and cultures in the EU; enough so that we might have to agree to shelve the discussion because it will lead to a vastly different path. I'd happily chat with you about that... it's just out of place here.

    But maybe somebody will make a Thrawn thread soon that we can derail with an art discussion.

    Suffice to it to say I've already made my argument: the Core, given what it is, should be vastly more interesting and varied than what we've seen so far. And given it's supposed in universe history and prominence, it's weird. Thankfully Jason here is following in WEG's footsteps -- he and his fellow writers of the Atlas and CatCW did fine work. Reference books often do.

    But what I want to see is more of that, and more of what Zahn did with Wukkar in Scoundrels. There was a one-line Core world from the DESB given local color and customs that had little to do with the generic Core stereotype (and again, I love that stereotype but variety is really needed.)


    Missa ab iPhona mea est.
     
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  11. Starkeiller

    Starkeiller Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 5, 2004
    Yeah well, I do agree that the Core could use more variation.
     
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  12. AdmiralNick22

    AdmiralNick22 Retired Fleet Admiral star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    May 28, 2003
  13. GrandAdmiralJello

    GrandAdmiralJello Comms Admin ❉ Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque star 10 Staff Member Administrator

    Registered:
    Nov 28, 2000
    Too late. I've already ended the Core tangent :p




    Missa ab iPhona mea est.
     
  14. MercenaryAce

    MercenaryAce Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 10, 2005
    Whoops, missed this earlier.
    I do agree that more cultural variety is always a good thing. Though I would apply that equally to any world: out of universe, I tend to find the distinction a little arbitrary, especially since the generic description of a Core world applies to Dac and the generic description of a Rim world sounds like Corellia.
    I would also hesitate to call it a flaw because...well, Star Wars is about adventure and it is kind of hard to have adventures in places pretty much defined by being safe and stable. Though, admittedly Star Wars is pretty flexible in terms of genre and could do things like Noir detective or conspiracy spy stories.
    As for Core = Europe...well, since it is all one country, I can't help but think of it as Core = China. The similarities are easy to see at first glance, but when you start looking more closely, one can start to see the incredible diversity that exists there as well.

    Well, we are discussing the decision to not purchase Geonosis and the Outer Rim because you thought it would lack "evocative weirdness."
    Am I wrong to assume that it was it wasn't a bitter old Grand Admiral shouting in a cantina somewhere that Palleon is a coward that made this decision. :p

    Well, real world me doesn't care about the geographic labels. I just like to take a strong pro-Rim view to provide some counter-balance to the strong Core view of your persona. In truth, a lot of my favorite planets are Core worlds: Chandrilla, Alderaan, and Corellia for those of my favorite planet's whose position I can remember off the top of my head (though I have to admit the first two do lean too close to boringly utopian at times).
    Still, amusingly enough, I was just about to comment on how, for all of Coruscant's many, many appearances, it still lacks culture to me. What is Coruscanti cuisine like? What is their music like? What are their local legends and folklore? What are the regional differences?
    Frankly, right now it is a place everyone goes to, but no one comes from. I mean, there are Coruscanti characters, but they aren't obviously so, unlike Alderaanian or Corellian characters.

    Admittedly, it is easy to explain as the rest of the galaxy having Coruscanti influenced cultures, but still.

    Speaking of which, can someone post there? I have exciting Core world related news but I don't want to double post.

    Or so you think.
     
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  15. CooperTFN

    CooperTFN TFN EU Staff Emeritus star 7 VIP

    Registered:
    Jul 8, 1999
    I remember when this thread was about Jason Fry.
     
  16. Gamiel

    Gamiel Chosen One star 9

    Registered:
    Dec 16, 2012
    It also mention "
    The terraced hills above the Citadel are dotted with estates held by families that may not be Old Anaxsi, but whose names are synonymous with naval service." and there should be more non-humans there.

    That is what I am complaining about.
    Galaxy Guide 4: Alien Races: “[…]few can boast of more capable pilots and navigators than those produced by the space cities of Duro.
    […]They have a reckless nature when it comes to space travel, and sometimes this recklessness is needed to try something new.”
    Ultimate Alien Anthology: “The duros seem to have a natural affinity for space travel. Many of them possess an innate grasp of the mathematical underpinnings of astronavigation computation,[…]
    […] all but the smallest settlement in know space feature duros populations.”
    I don't see how this says they are not the "naval types"; what I see is the books saying they are overall better spacers then the other species. So there should be many duros in the navy, since the navy should like to have the best.
    But you need a places to hang your uniform when you are finished with your long service, and why not Anaxes with their old work mates, they are after all nearly everywhere else.


    I am discussing Anaxes that was created by Fry
     
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  17. The Loyal Imperial

    The Loyal Imperial Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Nov 19, 2007
    A long time ago in a thread far, far away...
     
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  18. GrandAdmiralJello

    GrandAdmiralJello Comms Admin ❉ Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque star 10 Staff Member Administrator

    Registered:
    Nov 28, 2000
    I keep trying to make it stop. :(

    Merc, I don't have time to reply right now but when I do, I'll reply in the Core thread. :p


    Missa ab iPhona mea est.
     
  19. Noash_Retrac

    Noash_Retrac Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 14, 2006
    jasonfry

    Is the next Cut Content still going to come out or is it being shelved for now?
     
  20. jasonfry

    jasonfry VIP star 4 VIP

    Registered:
    Nov 11, 2003
    It'll come some time this month. Exact timing depends on when it's ready, the official blog's needs, etc. Don't worry.
     
  21. GrandAdmiralJello

    GrandAdmiralJello Comms Admin ❉ Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque star 10 Staff Member Administrator

    Registered:
    Nov 28, 2000
    I'm here to put you back on schedule. *mechanical wheeze*


    Er, sorry, had something in my throat there.


    Missa ab iPhona mea est.
     
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  22. CooperTFN

    CooperTFN TFN EU Staff Emeritus star 7 VIP

    Registered:
    Jul 8, 1999
    DAMN IT DISNEY STOP WITHHOLDING JASON'S ARTICLES

    [face_clown]
     
  23. Gamiel

    Gamiel Chosen One star 9

    Registered:
    Dec 16, 2012
    jasonfry do you know why so few of the planets in Coruscant and the Core Worlds are populated by a majority belonging to the other founding species while so many worlds are human controlled?
     
  24. darthosaka

    darthosaka Jedi Master star 1

    Registered:
    Oct 25, 2012
    I've always been fascinated by Alsakan!
     
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  25. jasonfry

    jasonfry VIP star 4 VIP

    Registered:
    Nov 11, 2003
    Do I know? No -- because there was never any coordinated plan to portray populations in the Core according to some guiding principle.

    Can I guess? Sure. Humancentric worlds have struck EU authors as presenting more interesting storytelling possibilities, particularly when combined with the EU idea of "High Human Culture" and the related idea that such an ethos would be strongest in the Core. I portrayed Anaxes and Axum as worlds shaped by those things, for instance. Those storytelling possibilities are undoubtedly the primary reason you see so many worlds like this -- as an author, they're appealingly creepy/conformist/unfair settings to play with, and for protagonists to react against.

    Are there "multicultural" Core worlds that would have diverse populations drawn from a number of well-established spacefaring species? I'm sure there are. (And I know this is the model you seem to find most logical/appealing, which of course is fine.) The Core has millions of inhabited worlds, and I'd be surprised if the Atlas appendix lists even a thousand of them. That CatCW sample is a really thin slice....

    In Iceland; apologies if I'm a poor correspondent over the next week.