main
side
curve
  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

ST Official Sequel Trilogy / Legends / Expanded Universe discussion thread

Discussion in 'Sequel Trilogy' started by YoureNotJonesy, Nov 2, 2012.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    If she's in Rebels, she'll be on the Imperial side, won't she?

    Maybe she could be to the Inquisitor as Ahsoka is to Anakin - a minion - a little cocky - but answering to a more powerful and assertive boss.
     
  2. Ryus

    Ryus Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 25, 2013
    My point was out of how many knew her most liked her, not that most fans know her. Those are two totally seperate things.

    We both know she has a big fan base out of how many know her and that is a good indication that fans who dont know her will mostly like her regardless of how either of use her feel about her. My point was only that to most movie only fans she'll translate well, likely even more so if her biggest Mary Sueisms are left behind in the Legends.
     
    aleja2, Estelita, T-R- and 2 others like this.
  3. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    In Book of Sith, Emperor's Hands are promoted from the Inquisitorius.
     
    Abadacus and Ryus like this.
  4. Abadacus

    Abadacus Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 4, 2014

    It'd be great to see young Mara be a foil for Vader. A clear mimicry of his relationship with Ahsoka, but with the rivalry and mistrust instead of faith in one another and resentment instead of affection.

    I have plenty of issues with her characterization in some books (and I see many missed opportunities where she could've been used better) but the rabid hate I see for her in some corners of the internet honestly disturbs me a little.
    If I take examples from only the worst characterizations, I could make an argument for pretty much ANY major EU character (or any long-running franchise) being "overpowered" or "mary-sue", but I choose to remember the characters as I know them from the better stories. These are the stories I hope the Story Group will be taking inspiration from for the new continuity.
    Mara's enough of a badass to be the equal of her husband, and I wouldn't have it any other way. She's rude, abrasive and overly critical, of course, but that's what makes her a flawed and relatable character - it's even an essential part of why her and Luke work together: Everyone in the galaxy treats him as "Famous War Hero Skywalker", but she treats him as "Big-Hearted Slow-Witted Farmboy Luke". She keeps him grounded and he sees through her spiky shell.
    It's not like Leia or Han have an "I know and do everything better than the others attitude" in the OT, after all.;) Conflict, snark and banter are at the heart of Star Wars adventures.

    I hope she is arrogant and mean in Rebels. Zahn was a little over-affectionate for his character when he made her a hero-lite when she was Hand. Making her be the kind of person she'll later need to forgive herself for having been adds important depth to her character arc.

    Mara was exactly the hero I needed when her stories first came out, and I hope we'll be seeing more of her going forward. Star Wars just wouldn't feel the same without her.
     
    aleja2, Estelita, T-R- and 3 others like this.
  5. Darth_Pevra

    Darth_Pevra Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    May 21, 2008
    I wouldn't marry a person that thinks I am dumb.

    Imperial agent Mara is okay if she isn't sue-ified, but I outright hated her as wife of Luke Skywalker. A match born in hell.
     
  6. DarthBreezy

    DarthBreezy Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Jun 4, 2002


    As does the blind devotion to 'her' bothers me - I don't find the rudeness, the nastiness, the 'OMG! Shes so perfectly flawed the Galaxy will implode without her' endearing at all - Leia was 'spikey and abrasive' at times, Miss Perfect is down right abusive when she isn't besting Vader, or being the Savior of the Empire or whatever.

    Luke deserves far better, and so do we.
     
  7. Darth_Pevra

    Darth_Pevra Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    May 21, 2008
    It is in many ways perverse. Luke with his small helpers syndrome coupled with a emotional leech like Mara Jade. I find that more worrisome than romantic.
     
  8. Abadacus

    Abadacus Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 4, 2014

    I don't think there's any argument to be made that she thinks he's dumb.
    She just teases him about it. A serene Jedi Master is hardly going to feel hurt by some snark, they've had more than enough glances inside each other's minds to know how much they each care for and respect one another.
    As I said, her taunts keep him grounded. He enjoys it and often gives as good as he gets. It's a dynamic that usually exists between close male friends, but I've noticed some people get freaked out when it's a woman acting that way toward "the hero".
    If we're reading those interactions completely differently we'll just have to disagree, but I wouldn't want to see Luke with someone "toned down" from Mara's challenging personality. Master Skywalker is up to the challenge.

    Blind devotion? Where?
    I'm just voicing my support for a favorite character who's inclusion in the new canon is in question. I've done the same for Wedge, Iella, or even Qrygg. Mara just plays a far more important role in the franchise, so the discussion's been more about her.
    Allegiance was just a generally disappointingly-plotted book, IMO, but that's also in the time when the recent EU was losing my interest generally. I think you're looking at a few bad examples and seeing a lot that just isn't there beyond them.
    The character you're so opposed to just doesn't have much in common with the one I've read about for decades. I just hope if she's included, it'll be close enough to the way I see her that you get a new chance to like her.
     
  9. Darth_Pevra

    Darth_Pevra Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    May 21, 2008
    I thought she was more arrogant and berating rather than "teasing". Luke bracing this all the time isn't really strong, it is rather weak. Like he lets her go on and be his verbally abusive girlfriend because he doesn't want to lose her.

    A trend in society is also that people don't think women can be abusive towards men.
     
  10. Abadacus

    Abadacus Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 4, 2014

    I'm sorry but that's a rather tired strawman argument. If there's anyone who really doesn't believe women can be abusive towards men they're a tiny fringe minority.
    Getting into how our support systems deal with abused people from one demographic or another is a touchy topic and way outside the purview of this thread.
    What relevance does real-world abuse have to their relationship? I just don't get where you see that. I've seen abuse. Mara's teasing (or even insults if you interpret it that way) come nowhere close to it.

    Mara: "Stupid, stupid. A big fat diversion—the oldest trick on the list. And I fell for it like some dumb farm kid."
    Luke: "Watch your language."

    She baits him, he playfully takes it and snarks back. I don't see someone weak and passive here, I see someone flirting. I can only imagine the cheeky grins they were throwing back and forth during this exchange.
    I'd find Luke to be weak if he was so insecure that he couldn't take a ribbing. He was supposed to have outgrown that by TESB.

    Luke: "Smells good. Just like we used to make back home."
    Mara: "Really? And I always thought the reason you left Tatooine was to join the Rebellion and save the galaxy."
    Luke: "No, it was the food — definitely the food."

    It almost seems like Luke has a self-depreciating sense of humor. Hmm. That certainly would befit a humble Jedi master. Almost reminds me of the attitude a little green guy once had.

    "I am so glad I found you and didn't kill you."

    "Time for you to do one of the six or eight things you do best."

    Even while they're teasing each other, they regularly remind one another of the mutual respect and admiration they share. Outside of a few bad examples, I really don't see "berating" as something that comes up in their interactions, and certainly never abuse.
    Quotes aren't even particular favorites of mine, just what a lazy google search came up with.

    Maybe you've gotten a different impression from some of the recent books I haven't read. As we all know, the EU is rather mixed in quality. If that's the case, I choose not to let weird mischaracterizations from less well-written works redefine a character in my mind, especially since it's all "Legends" at this point anyways. I don't begrudge you a different opinion, but I hope you'll keep an open mind if the Story Group can get her right going forward.
     
  11. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    Even when the words are harsh - there's always affection in them.

    "If you ever do this to me again I will vape you where you stand" regarding her pregnancy (NJO Edge of Victory I) is part of a back and forth banter of this kind.
     
    Ryus and Abadacus like this.
  12. JediGirl_Angelina

    JediGirl_Angelina Jedi Grand Master star 3

    Registered:
    Jan 12, 2003
    I never thought Luke needed to be grounded. He showed a very healthy mentality throughout the films, never cocky, but always supportive to his friends and co-pilots. He was the big hero of the galaxy yet he never bragged about it.

    Along the marysue-ism I always felt there was a lot of self-insertion of Zahn into the character too. Trough Mara, he was the one who treated Luke in such a passive-aggressive manner.
     
    Darth_Pevra and DarthBreezy like this.
  13. Ryus

    Ryus Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 25, 2013
    Well considering Zahn has no input and admitted no one has talked to him about adapting anything hes done. Odds are all his self-insertion of opinions on Luke through Mara will be a non-issue in canon moving forward if she's adapted into canon (or not for that matter). So there goes much of the reasons people dislike Mara right there... ;)

    I agree Zahn did this with Mara to Luke too much in the HoT Dulogy but I felt most of that was aimed at other EU authors, like KJA, who where making Jedi far too powerful and out of character. It wasnt so much aimed at Luke imho but how other authors used him in those few books.
     
    aleja2 and JediGirl_Angelina like this.
  14. DarthBreezy

    DarthBreezy Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Jun 4, 2002
    Save the perpetual 'snarking' for Han and Leia - I like my wise, thoughtful, Jedi Master Luke.

    As an afterthought, In none of those passages can I see a single instance of Luke 'dishing it out' - more like soft lobes being smacked back at him - well, maybe here:

    "Time for you to do one of the six or eight things you do best."

    And that just reminds me of how wonderful she supposedly is *blurg*
     
    JediGirl_Angelina likes this.
  15. Abadacus

    Abadacus Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 4, 2014

    That's her talking to him, there. It's snarky, but it's definitely a respectful compliment. "Watch your language" doesn't count? Luke's always had more of a sense of humor than people give him credit for, albeit a much more subtle one than Han's.
    Their relationship works precisely because he's usually so wise, thoughtful, and serene. He needs a more cynical and (dark) humored partner to play off. Remember him and Han in Jabba's palace? That was perfect.
    With Han and Leia settled down, Mara fills that role beautifully. She allows him to feel like that idealistic farmboy who could take on the whole Empire himself again, instead of the famous war hero with the weight of the galaxy on his shoulders.

    Those character traits are why it's appropriate for Luke to "dish it out" a little less than her. He's usually serious and responsible in the extreme, but that could get boring (see: common complaint about PT Jedi) if that's the only side of him we get to see. Having a good foil for contrast and getting to see their private moments and banter adds depth and likability to his character.

    Grounding someone doesn't mean harassing them to correct character flaws. Luke lost a lot of elements of a normal childhood, and was then thrust into a war, then the spotlight of galactic heroism.
    Someone who doesn't handle him with hero-worship and who can make him feel like the aforesaid "idealistic farmboy" again is exactly what he wants at that point.
     
    aleja2 and Ryus like this.
  16. Six

    Six Jedi Knight star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 9, 2014
    I quickly glanced over that quote, and I completely misread it. I almost spit my drink out.
     
    BigAl6ft6 likes this.
  17. DarthBreezy

    DarthBreezy Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Jun 4, 2002

    See, to me that comes across as belittling (to Luke) - treating him like he IS still a kid. It's not something I want to see in the ST if Luke has a partner at all. I do think deserves someone who respects him (as a man, not just as a Jedi Master or 'Hero') who at least tries to understand him, but also knows that he will ALWAYS have to answer to his 'station' in the Galaxy, and unfortunately, that might even mean coming 'second' at times. *Biting my tongue here - I write far too much to say any more!* [face_blush][face_laugh]

    Again, I think trying to retool 'Mara' would be a huge mistake - in the end, no one would be happy.
     
    JediGirl_Angelina likes this.
  18. Julian Skywalker-Solo

    Julian Skywalker-Solo Jedi Padawan star 1

    Registered:
    May 21, 2014
    No Mara Jade please. I liked her in the EU, but I'd rather they start fresh.
     
  19. aleja2

    aleja2 Jedi Master star 2

    Registered:
    Aug 4, 2005
    No, making money makes Disney very, very happy. And Mara makes money, or she wouldn't have her own comics/books, or be featured on the box cover artwork for the card game expansion, or be one of the few EU characters to have multiple action figures.

    Nor is Disney stupid. They are going to milk Star Wars incessantly for the foreseeable future, and that means burning through content. And content is expensive.

    They already own Mara/The Thrawn Trilogy. I'll bet anything we will see a retelling of the most popular EU stories, retooled and reconfigured, at some point. Maybe not set in the same time period. Maybe not with the same character names. "Mara" might be moved forward to be a contemporary of the new generation in the new Episodes timeline, or a Thrawn-like story will be put into the Rebels time period or set just post ROTJ instead of five years later.

    But Disney knows that Mara is popular, and that she/TTT are regularly cited on mainstream websites as the best of the Legends/Expanded Universe. It's fashionable among a certain subset here to hate on her/anything Zahn wrote, but there a ginormous population of Star Wars content consumers out there who would never frequent a message board or even a fansite. Those are the people Disney wants to get into the movie theaters/watching TV/buying Marvel comics/attending Star Wars Weekends at the theme parks (funny enough, I just bought a Black Series Mara Jade figure at Disneyland [face_laugh]). Disney knows committed, involved fans will vacuum up whatever they put out. But they need to reach others to make back their investment. And Mara is the Natasha Romanoff/Black Widow of the Star Wars universe - complete with tragic backstory working for the bad guys before she joined the good guys, black leather combat suit and red hair. It's a time honored character trope that works.

    Again, Disney is not stupid. And if the character is handled correctly within the new stories, then more than just Disney people will be very happy. Including all the new people who never bothered to read the EU, or who stopped after TTT.
     
    Iron_lord, Abadacus and newdawn12 like this.
  20. Dark Lady Mara

    Dark Lady Mara Manager Emeritus star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 19, 1999
    Well, at least it was an affectionate vape.
     
  21. Darth_Pevra

    Darth_Pevra Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    May 21, 2008
    What if they just go back to Mara Sue out of lazyness. If she is really reinvented as a better character, then I have nothing against her. But seeing how much they screwed up in recent books, I'm not hopeful.
     
  22. Ryus

    Ryus Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 25, 2013
    You really think they'll be lazy writing after investing $4.04 billion? o_O


    Well, if they do that I suppose it would come down the how much the director and actress can flush out more from her than just what the script has as to whether or not her haters who know her from the EU will accept her or not. In new canon books it will comedown to the individual writers skills since like every character in all the books they have had bad interuptations and good ones from different authors.
    Glad to hear you'll keep an open mind and aren't rushing to judgements now. ;)

    I find your lack of faith disturbing. :p

    Some of the resent books where quite good, like Kenobi... but if your referring to New Jedi Order, Dark Nest, Legacy of the Force, Fate of the Jedi, & Crucible. Well I agree, they weren't shinning examples of the EU and while all had some amazing moments they had many bad ones too, especially Dark Nest but best to forget that legend... I blaim much of it though on authors trying to do bigger things than Lucas would allow like trying to kill Luke (several times) only to be vetoed, having Darkhorse creating Legacy which tied their hand of where they could take the stories, trying to rehash the Prequals in Legacy of the Force, and using Mortis **** in Dark Nest and Fate of the Jedi, letting Troy Denning always leaving the story on a blasted cliffhanger for pure shock value, and cycling too many authors who didn't communicate that well between themselves just to hit one year release cycles for the series but give the author two years off for their own novels (next time one Author willing to have turnarounds like that or authors more closely collaborating who don't pause for their own novels).
     
  23. Jedi Merkurian

    Jedi Merkurian Future Films Rumor Naysayer star 7 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    May 25, 2000
    I would have no problem with using Mara Jade in new continuity, so long as it finally acknowledges that she's a clone of Shira Brie [face_mischief]
     
    Ryus, T-R- and Bazinga'd like this.
  24. T-R-

    T-R- Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 13, 2003
    If Mara makes it into VII, I'd like to see Michelle Fairley from GoT fame play her. She has the attitude and look:

    [​IMG]
     
  25. Ryus

    Ryus Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 25, 2013
    Just as long as it also acknowledges that Mara is the prettier one. [face_whistling];)
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.