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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

Lit Books Cynically Reliving the X-Wing Series

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Cynical_Ben, Jan 2, 2014.

  1. DigitalMessiah

    DigitalMessiah Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Feb 17, 2004
    I haven't read it but I hear that it actually acknowledges that the NJO happened, so there's that.

    From what I understand though, having subjected myself to FOTJ, it actually ties up loose ends from that, like explaining a character that appeared in that story as something of a mystery and then was never explained at all. Which I suppose is nice considering all the other things from LOTF/FOTJ that are presented as mysteries and then completely forgotten.

    Edit: Something which I realized recently, and which might make me unpopular in this thread, is that I realized that a lot of the problems with FOTJ may be Allston's fault, at least partly. Rumor is that the series itself was sort of his idea in the same way that LOTF was Denning's, specifically the Luke-Ben odyssey that kind of got forgotten by book three although continued with other motives afterward, and you can see the early signs of this type of plot formulation in Allston's NJO duology.

    Specifically, he takes two Bantam characters and kills one of them off off-screen and then the other one is used as Lord Nyax and killed off at the end. Additionally, the Lord Nyax idea was really silly, though someone told me that wasn't his fault in the NJO thread though I have no idea what his original idea was there.

    So it doesn't really surprise me if it's true that he played the "Denning role" for FOTJ with this idea of revisiting the Bantam planets and characters and I suppose killing off all of Luke's exes. I've kind of developed the opinion between the two X-Wing writers that Allston is maybe better at prose but less adept at the storytelling whereas Stackpole is a better storyteller but not as good at prose, but I haven't read them in a while so I can't definitively say about the prose part. Maybe it would be more accurate to say that Allston is more of a character guy and Stackpole is more of a story guy. But I don't think either of them are bad at the other, I just think Allston was in a bad situation and his ideas were by virtue of the situation necessary really badly executed in FOTJ. Putting a character writer like Allston alongside a story writer like Denning is just a bad idea overall, since Denning puts his story so far ahead of all other considerations that they don't even exist for him.
     
  2. Revanfan1

    Revanfan1 Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jun 3, 2013
    Yes, it actually does a great job of making it seem like NJO, LOTF, and FOTJ actually happened in the same universe. Off the top of my head:

    -A Yuuzhan Vong Shamed One is a main member of the cast.
    -There is a flashback to the Vong war.
    -Piggy's story is heavily influenced by what he feels he lost during the Vong war.
    -Face says that the Wraiths were disbanded and anyone who "didn't disavow Jacen Solo from the time he was a teenager" was fired by Daala.
    -The main villain is a loose end from FOTJ.
    -Wynn Dorvan is mentioned as the Chief of State and Vitor Reige is mentioned as the Imperial Head of State.

    It is true that the odyssey itself was his idea, but I don't know if he had anything to do with anything that came after. Actually, I think the Lecersen Conspiracy was his idea, too–but that ended up being one of the parts of the series that I actually enjoyed through and through. Abeloth, I think, was not his idea, at least as she turned out. He may've had the idea of a dark side entity, but what she turned into wasn't his fault. (Note: except for the brief implication in Outcast, she doesn't actually appear in any of his books in the series until Conviction.)

    To be fair, it's not like the Ismarens were all that great to begin with. As for Lord Nyax, I'm not sure how much of him came from Allston or not, but I never had a problem with him. The six lightsabers were a little silly, yes, but the overall concept and execution were great, especially the final encounter where Tahiri gets her moment to shine ("Most people drown in pain. I just swim in it."). Plus, the rest of those books more than make up for any silliness with Nyax.

    The revisiting Bantam planets and characters was fun for a while–it gave us a chance to see the Aing-Tii and the Nightsisters, both of whom I enjoyed extremely. And then he gave us possibly the first prose look at the Kel-Dor ever. I mean, was Plo Koon ever even in a novel before? Cloak of Deception is the only possibility I can think of, and he was just a side character there. And then, note that Allston was the only one who consistently stuck with the "odyssey-on-Bantam-worlds" thing. Golden did it once, in Omen, and Denning did it once, in Vortex. The other two focused more on the Lost Tribe and Abeloth.

    I'd say that Allston is better at character story, but Stackpole is better at overarching story. Stackpole's story tends to take more than one book to complete–the first four X-wing books, the Dark Tide books–they require you to read the whole story. You can't just read one of them without the others. Allston's stories tend to be smaller, more focused on the minutiae of the characters rather than the overall story. Neither one is necessarily better than the other.

    I would tend to agree with this to a certain extent. I think Allston did better in LOTF, when he was co-writing with Traviss. I think Traviss is similar to him–focusing on character story rather than overarching story. That's why all of Allston's LOTF books were really good, I think, because he could focus on what he was good at and Traviss played off that pretty well. Whereas Golden has a closer style to Denning's, so those two were playing off each other and Allston was all on his own, trying to do the best he could with two authors with styles dissimilar to his.
     
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  3. Force Smuggler

    Force Smuggler Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    Agree with your last point Revanfan1. So true.
     
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  4. Riv_Shiel

    Riv_Shiel Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Apr 12, 2014
    I have no actual knowledge of who did what, but whenever I read the Force Psychosis everyone-is-an-imposter scenes, I said to myself - this HAS to be Allston's idea. Just seemed to be right up his alley. I HATED those scenes. I hated it the first time it happened. Then I REALLY hated it every subsequent time it happened (we get the same exact scene six times, I found the concept silly to begin with, and I found the plot line completely uninteresting). Of course, I'm not much of a fan of Allston's books to begin with - which should make ME unpopular in this thread (and the Lit forum throughout).
     
  5. DigitalMessiah

    DigitalMessiah Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Feb 17, 2004
    I don't dislike Allston's novels by any means -- but I wouldn't consider myself a big fan either. I was pretty indifferent with his X-Wing novels and I really disliked Lord Nyax when I was reading the NJO. And then he did LOTF and FOTJ.

    I'd say my biggest problem with him is that he wrote thirteen Star Wars novels, and six of them were in Legacy of the Force and Fate of the Jedi, which is nearly half, and those are simply bad novels due to the way those series are structured, with the exception of Betrayal (which has its own problems). And I suppose I'm just not easily amused by witticisms and one-liners.
     
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  6. Zeta1127

    Zeta1127 Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    Stackpole has stuck with me a little better than Allston, primarily due to his work with Zahn, though all three of them are collectively the foundation of the EU as I see it (besides Stover, Luceno, and JJM), so I don't really bother comparing them that much. I don't see a reason to hold Allston to a higher regard than Stackpole like most people do, because I like them both for different reasons. And since I have avoided the Denningverse, my perceptions of Allston haven't really been soured by his work on that, because I wasn't impressed by the excerpt of Betrayal from one of the Republic Commando books, and I am interested in at least the flashbacks through the Yuuzhan Vong War in Mercy Kill, even without the excerpt from LTotS.
     
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  7. Revanfan1

    Revanfan1 Force Ghost star 6

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    Jun 3, 2013
    The Force psychosis scenes actually drew me in. When I first read the preview for Outcast in the back of Crosscurrent, I actually thought that Valin's parents really had been replaced–I had no idea he'd been stricken some kind of Force plague. And actually I think Allston only wrote two psychosis scenes himself–Valin's, and then Sothais Saar's in Backlash. Golden had Jysella's in Omen, and Denning had Bazel Warv's in Abyss. I can't recall who else had psychosis scenes, even though I'm sure there are more. In any case, the psychosis scenes are far from the biggest problem the series has.
     
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  8. Force Smuggler

    Force Smuggler Force Ghost star 7

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    Sep 2, 2012
    Have to agree. It was quite interesting at first.
     
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  9. Revanfan1

    Revanfan1 Force Ghost star 6

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    Jun 3, 2013
    Being the operative term. :p
     
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  10. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    I like Allston better than Stackpole so far, based on what Stackpole has done for the X-Wing series and the NJO and Allston for the NJO.

    But I thought Nyax was ridiculous.
     
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  11. Riv_Shiel

    Riv_Shiel Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Apr 12, 2014
    At the risk of being further unpopular, I actually generally liked his LOTF books BETTER than I did his X-Wing books (Caveat: when divorce from the overall plot and considered as completely isolated novels, the baggage they carry from the horrible plots of those series are enough to bury and book - I was able to see them as AU and MOSTLY move on). I guess for me its just that I really don't like his style of humor, so it makes me hard to get behind his characters (or existing characters who have his humor in his books) and plots (when they rely on zany schemes, which they frequently do). That said, I found Exile to be one of the better (relatively speaking) LOTF books and I really liked Mercy Kill (excepting some of the zanier moments, and a few little things like you would get in 95% of books).

    Of course, I recognize that my tastes diverge significantly from the majority. I don't understand how anyone could have liked Dark Rendezvous, I could take or leave Luceno, I generally liked The Crystal Star, and I really liked Children of the Jedi and Planet of Twilight.

    Also, it occurs to me that my post has barely anything to do with the X-Wing series so - as you were.
     
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  12. Sniper_Wolf

    Sniper_Wolf Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 26, 2002
    ^ is not my sock.
     
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  13. fett 4

    fett 4 Chosen One star 5

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    Jan 2, 2000
    How far you got into the X-Wing series and are you going to read IJedi along with it ?
     
  14. fett 4

    fett 4 Chosen One star 5

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    Jan 2, 2000
    Hmm I think Stackpole had a better overarching story but the actual nitty gritty was poor. By Isards revenge he was reduced to simply bringing her back twice and doing the same thing he had already done for the story. He also pretty much focused on one character, Corran. Allston though was very good at the nitty gritty and could handle an a better ensemble better.

    As for the prose it is a defo, somone smiling at somone with the other winking back before the other does some exposition before the other nods solomenly while declaring thats why the Empires evil and must be defeated is not great prose, particuarly when its repeated ad nausem.

    One final thing Allston did not need to have his characters beat up Movie characters and waste bad guy's by the thousand to show how awesome they are.

    Swap Maul with Corran and take it seriously and that is what you got most of the time

     
  15. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

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    Mar 4, 2011
    Almost done with The Krytos Trap and no, I think a first-person Corran book would set my teeth on edge.

    I don't dislike him but I've never liked the level of focus on one character that he has gotten so far.
     
  16. fett 4

    fett 4 Chosen One star 5

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    Jan 2, 2000
    Yes first person Corran is quite teeth grinding. The character is to Stackpole what Ahsoka is to Filnoi and Mara and Thrawn are to Zahn.

    To be fair the Tycho/Corran dog fight in the book is argubly the best fighter duel Stackpole has written and while there are some insufferable moments (Corran defeating Luke Skywalker in a duel) there are actually some good moments too. When Corran watches a holo- recording by his Dad which is a powerful scene.
     
  17. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

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    Sep 2, 2012
    Corran gives Luke a bit of a setback in a fistfight. Not the same as being able to beat Luke saber to saber.
     
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  18. CT-867-5309

    CT-867-5309 Chosen One star 7

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    Jan 5, 2011
    They fought saber to saber and Corran just dumps Luke on his ass a couple times and beats him up a bit.
     
  19. DigitalMessiah

    DigitalMessiah Chosen One star 6

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    Feb 17, 2004
    yeah but it's first person so we know corran is just misremembering events
     
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  20. Vialco

    Vialco Force Ghost star 5

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    Mar 6, 2007
    I always found it a it ridiculous that none of the psychotic Jedi actually killed anyone during their rampages. Because if they had, then Daala would have had a legitimate reason for wanting to arrest them. In FOTJ it was always:

    Jedi goes crazy, the other Jedi manage to capture him and drag him back to the Temple.Daala demands that they hand him over, even though the Jedi hasn't' committed any crimes. Had the psycho Jedi actually murdered a bunch of people that he thought were impostors, then Daala would have been justified in demanding that they be handed over. As it was, FOTJ was a big mess.
     
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  21. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

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    Mar 4, 2011
    I finished The Krytos Trap.

    Nice continuation from the last book with Isard's plan of "You want Coruscant! Have Coruscant--but it's infected and the non-humans are going to hate you--bwah hah hah." I felt like the focus on getting bacta was set aside for Tycho's trial though. But...not a big deal.

    I know some people don't like courtroom drama but I like a good trial and I enjoyed reading about Ven's efforts to defend Tycho.

    Isard making Corran relive his father's death was sad.

    But...Corran. I feel like I'm going to get flamed for this but whatever...geez, I really want to like the guy but could I just once have a chapter where he's not the smartest guy EVAH and able to uncover any mystery and escape any impossible situation? I'm glad he got out of Lusankya. I'm glad he discovered that Tycho was innocent. And I was really glad to read about his family history and a reappearance of Nejaa Halcyon (I'm one of few who actually liked Jedi Trial).

    But otherwise...just make it stop.

    Erisi as the mole. I didn't see that coming. From the standpoint of the Empire paying more for bacta, I can see it. Immoral as hell, but it made sense. The idea of her going mole to get back at Mirax over some love triangle with Corran made me want to hit something though.

    Nice Luke appearance at the end of the book. And Borsk...I'm pretty cynical about politics and politicians in general and damn, if that dude doesn't caricature everything that is wrong with the system. He did in the NJO and he doesn't fail to deliver here either.

    I enjoyed Mon Mothma's speech. This was my favorite

    "Citizens of the New Republic, the last vestige of the Empire's evil has been rooted out of Coruscant. What was once an Empire is now just a collection of bitter people clutching at whatever power they can find to keep themselves apart from those they have hurt. What they do not realize, and the reason they are doomed to failure, is that all power in the galaxy comes from the free and willful investing of power by one person in another. Human and non-human, gendered or not, young, old, hale or infirm, we can only give power, we cannot take it. Stolen power evaporates and when it does, the empires that were built on it and of it collapse, never to rise again."
     
  22. DigitalMessiah

    DigitalMessiah Chosen One star 6

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    Feb 17, 2004
    don't worry I always hated corran too
     
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  23. Sniper_Wolf

    Sniper_Wolf Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Nov 26, 2002
    Finally realizing Corran's official height is only around 5'5 makes his saber swagger a little more amusing.
     
  24. Draconarius

    Draconarius Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 27, 2005
    Maybe I'm not remembering it right, anakinfansince1983, but I'm pretty sure Erisi was the mole since the start. I think I remember one scene from Rogue Squadron where, after she loses her fighter and can't take part in a mission, she tries to get Corran to tell her where they're going. At the time it's not so suspicious, but after you read Krytos Trap it feels a lot like she was trying to seduce him into revealing mission information she could then pass on.
     
  25. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Sniper_Wolf :

    [obligatory]

    I'm taller than he is...

    [/obligatory]

    Draconarius :

    I'm sure she was the mole from the start, but the last chapter mentioned her wanting to get back at Mirax over Corran.

    And I hated the seduction scene, the one in either Rogue Squadron or Wedge's Gamble.
     
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