PT The "What-If?" Depository - ALL conceptual/hypothetical conversation goes here

The RoTS novel, and to a lesser extent the RoTJ novel, seem heavy on such moments.

 

They really are. The ST novels have a lot to live up to.

 

All this tells us for sure is that he knows of it. Palpatine is known to lie to manipulate things how he wants

 

Are the Geonosians military contractors for the Trade Federation?

 

And that he knows of the prophesy.

 

That's... kind of exactly what I said lol

 

Oops - early morning sleepiness at fault here.

 

That's what I've always thought, at least.

 

I think another reason might be that, coming from Tatooine he was so used to wearing tan light clothing all his life, he broke with everything that visually represented the harsh desert planet. Only his undershirt is still tan in AOTC, while in ROTS he no longer wears tan at all.

 

I just finished re-watching Attack of the Clones with my dad and the same question is nagging at me once again- it might have the simplest of answers and I might be making myself look like a total fool, but could someone please explain to me why Padme is being targeted throughout the movie? Also, what is the motive behind Count Dooku and the Separatist leaders' plot against the Republic?

I saw Attack of the Clones in theaters with my dad when it came out in 2002- at the time, I was in the 1st grade and obviously wasn't paying attention to anything but lightsaber battles and blaster fights, haha. Only recently have I started re-watching the Star Wars movies for more than just flash and spectacle, so that's why some of these finer plot details are a bit hazy- I never really learned them as a kid because I was too engrossed in lightsabers and blasters!

 

Nute Gunray has a personal grudge against Padme and wants her dead.

Dooku is obviously in league with Sidious.

The Separatist motive is basically just greed. Whatever their plot is, the end is to gain more power and wealth.

 

The Separatist leaders (except Dooku) want to forge a corporate-friendly galactic government, while some like Grievous just want to see the jedi and the republic dead. Dooku knows most of Sidious's plan and knows the CIS is just a puppet to help create The Empire. The only difference is, in the plan Dooku was told, Anakin would be turned to a dark side adept when Kenobi was killed aboard the Invisible Hand (where Dooku died in actuality). Anakin, now in on the plot, would then arrest Dooku, where he'd later defect and emerge as the Emperor's executioner after the war.

What exactly did Dooku's treaty with Gunray entail? The Trade Federation droids were already being integrated into the Separatist army, and Gunray already appeared to be a member of the council, so it can't be a treaty of allegiance.

 

Something has always bugged about how much Nute Gunray and the other Separatists' knew of Sidious's true identity and his true plans. I had always assumed that the Separatists, Grievous included, never knew that Sidious was in fact Palpatine and that CIS was merely a tool to bring about the creation of the Empire. And this seems to be the generally accepted fact. It certainly seems like this in the films. They never refer to him as Palpatine, and they treat Palpatine as a completely different person. When Obi-wan is spying on Dooku's meeting with the potential Separatists leaders on Geonosis, Dooku never mentions that this is all actually being arranged by the Chancellor himself. Also, when Obi-wan is eavesdropping on the Seapartists' meeting on Utapau, Gunray tells Grievous that "Chancellor Palpatine managed to escape [Grievous's] grip." If he knew Palpatine and Sidious were the same person, I doubt he'd say something like this. All-in-all, it seems pretty likely that Gunray and the other Separatists had no idea Palpatine and Sidious were the same person and that he really didn't give a crap about the CIS.

However, something Gunray says in ROTS confuses me on this matter. Shortly after Anakin turns to the Darkside and Sidious issues Order 66, Sidious contacts the Separatists on Mustafar to let them know Vader is coming to "take care of them." During this conversation, Gunray says to Sidious: "The plan has gone as you had promised, my lord." To which plan is he referring exactly? Is the plan simply that the Jedi would be made to look like they're rebelling thus prompting the Republic to exterminate them? Or his he referring to Sidious/Palpatine's larger scheme to use the CIS and Clone Wars war to eventually make himself the sole ruler of the galaxy? If the latter is indeed the plan that Gunray was talking about, then this means that he and the other Separatists actually did know all along that Sidious and Palpatine were the same person and that they were basically just being used for his own gain.

Another line of Gunray's that points to him and the Separatists knowing the entire plan is what he says to Vader right before Vader kills him. He says, "The war is over. Lord Sidious promised us peace." Does he mean that the Separatists were led to believe that if they were accomplices in Sidious's take over of the galaxy, they'd somehow be spared from any retribution once the CIS was eventually defeated and reabsorbed into the Empire? I honestly don't know what else he could've meant by this. If the Separatists thought that the CIS was simply a means to break away from the Republic and satisfy their own greedy desires, why would they think they'd be guaranteed peace if they've been defeated?

Again, a lot of evidence in the films indicates that Gunray and the other Separatists leaders were totally oblivious to Sidious's true nature, but these two lines of dialog kinda cast some doubt on that. For me, anyway. Is there something I'm missing? Is the plan he's referring to something obvious, and I'm just overthinking it? I tried looking into this on Wookieepedia on Gunray's entry, but it doesn't really clear this up. Thoughts? Sorry if this seems like nonsensical rambling.

Sidenote: if this doesn't mean that Gunray knew Sidious's true identity, then I still find this plot point pretty ludicrous, as I always have, since Palpatine never really even had a disguise. Being such a prominent figure, one would think his voice and half of his face would eventually be recognized. But, that's for another post...

 

Maybe Gunray thought Palpatine would be disposed of in some form of fashion. Maybe Sidious led him to believe the Jedi would "kill Palpatine," thus allowing Sidious to turn the Republic against the Jedi.

 

DarthLannister

In the Plagueis Book, Palpatine reveals himself to Nute Gunray, but only as Darth Sidious, Dark Lord of the Sith.
He never mentions him being a senator or having any affiliation with the Senate.

Spoiler: Darth Plagueis

The comm caught Viceroy Nute Gunray in the midst of eating, and without the ear-flapped tiara and ornate azurestone collar that made him look like a jester. “Greetings, Viceroy,” Sidious said.
The nictitating membranes of the Neimoidian’s crimson eyes went into spasm, and his mottled muzzle twitched. “What? What? This is a secure address. How did you—”
“Don’t bother attempting to trace the origin of this communication,” Sidious said, while Gunray’s tapered gray fingers flew across the keypad of his holotable. “A trace will only lead you in circles and waste what limited time we have.”
“How dare you intrude—”
“Recently, I sent you a gift. A red-spotted pylat.”
Gunray stared. “You? You sent it?”
“I trust you had sense enough to have it scanned for monitoring devices.”
Gunray whirled to look at something off cam; probably the crested bird itself. “Of course I did. What was your purpose in sending it?” His accent elongated the words and softened the T sounds.
“Consider it a token of my appreciation for the unrewarded work you have done for the Trade Federation. The directorate fails to recognize your contributions.”
“They—that is, I … Why are you hiding inside the cowl of your cloak?”
“It is the clothing of my Order, Viceroy.”
“You are a cleric?”
“Do I seem a holy man to you?”
Gunray’s expression soured. “I demand to see your face.”
“You have yet to earn the privilege of seeing me.”
“Privilege? Who do you think you are?”
“Are you certain you want to know?”
“I demand to know.”
Sidious’s smile barely escaped the cowl. “Even better, then. I am a Sith Lord.”
There. I said it.
I said it …
“Sith Lord?” Gunray repeated.
The response came from deep inside him, from the center of his true being. “You have permission to refer to me as Darth Sidious.”
“I’ve not heard of Darth Sidious.”
“Ah, but now that you have, our partnership is forged.”
Gunray shook his head. “I am not looking for a partner.”
Sidious showed some of his face. “Don’t pretend to be content with your position in the Trade Federation, or that you are without aspirations. We are now partners in the future.”
Gunray made a hissing sound. “This is a joke. The Sith have been extinct for a thousand years.”
“That’s precisely what the Republic and the Jedi Order would like you to believe, but we never disappeared. Through the centuries we have taken up just causes and revealed ourselves to select beings like yourself.”
Gunray sat back in his chair. “I don’t understand. Why me?”
“You and I share an avid interest in where the Republic is headed, and I have deemed it time that we begin to work in concert.”
“I won’t be part of any covert schemes.”
“Truly?” Sidious said. “Do you think that out of millions of influential beings I would choose you without knowing you inside and out? I realize that your voracious desires stem from the cruel conditions of your upbringing—you and your fellow grubs in ruthless competition for limited supplies of fungus. But I understand. We are all shaped by our infantile desires, our longing for affection and attention, our fears of death. And judging by how far you have come, it’s clear that you were unrivaled and continue to be. Your years in the Senate, for example. The clandestine meetings in the Claus Building, the Follin Restaurant in the Crimson Corridor, the funds you diverted to Pax Teem and Aks Moe, the secret dealings with Damask Holdings, the assassination of Vidar Kim—”
“Enough! Enough! Do you mean to blackmail me?”
Sidious delayed his reply. “Perhaps you didn’t hear me when I spoke of a partnership.”
“I heard you. Now tell me what you want of me.”
“Nothing more than your cooperation. I will bring about great changes for you, and in exchange you will do the same for me.”
Gunray looked worried. “You claim to be a Dark Lord. But how do I know that you are? How do I know you have any ability to help me?”
“I found you a rare bird.”
“That hardly validates your claim.”
Sidious nodded. “I understand your skepticism. I could, of course, demonstrate my powers. But I’m reluctant to convince you in that way.”
Gunray sniffed. “I haven’t time for this—”
“Is the pylat nearby?”
“Just behind me,” Gunray allowed.
“Show me.”
Gunray widened the scope of the holotable’s cams to include the bird, perched in a cage that was little more than a circle of precious metal, crowned with a stasis field generator.
“I was concerned, when I extracted him from the jungle habitat, that he would die,” Sidious said. “And yet he appears to be at home in his new environment.”
“His songs suggest as much,” Gunray replied.
“What if I told you that I could reach across space and time and strangle him where he perches?”
Gunray was aghast. “You couldn’t. I doubt that even a Jedi—”
“Are you challenging me, Viceroy?”
“Yes,” he said abruptly; then, just as quickly: “No—wait!”
Sidious shifted in the chair. “You value the bird—this symbol of wealth.”
“I am the envy of my peers for possessing it.”
“Would not actual wealth generate even greater envy?”
Gunray grew flustered. “How can I answer, when I know that you might strangle me should I refuse you?”
Sidious loosed an elaborate sigh. “Partners don’t strangle each other, Viceroy. I would prefer to earn your trust. Are you agreeable to that?”
“I might be.”
“Then here is my first gift to you: the Trade Federation is going to be betrayed. By Naboo, by the Republic, by the members of the directorate. Only you can provide the leadership that will be needed to keep the Federation from splintering. But first we must see to it that you are promoted to the directorate.”
“The current directorate would never welcome a Neimoidian.”
“Tell me what it would take—” Sidious started, then cut himself off. “No. Never mind. Let me surprise you by arranging a promotion.”
“You would do that and ask nothing in return?”
“For the time being. If and when I’ve earned your full trust, I will expect you to take my suggestions to heart.”
“I will. Darth Sidious.”
“Then we will speak again soon.”
Sidious deactivated the holoprojector and sat in silence.

 

To start, I don't think Gunray knows Sidious is Palpatine.

Gunray knows Sidious has major political influence. "I will make it legal." Gunray may know "hundreds of Senators are now under the influence of a Sith Lord called Darth Sidious."

Perhaps Sidious is supposed to use his political influence, in whatever way, to make sure Gunray and his ilk came out of the war with what they wanted. I don't think the Separatists ever actually thought the CIS was actually supposed to break away from the Republic, they would just use the war to get what they want at the negotiation table. I think they knew the end game was always going to be the Separatists being folded back into the Republic, but under more profitable terms.

After all, somehow Gunray is free in AOTC instead of in prison after the invasion of Naboo, I'm sure Sidious had something to do with that. It's a bit of a stretch for Gunray to believe he'd get off scot-free twice, for him to believe Sidious (a Sith Lord) would keep his end of the bargain after he has what he wants and Gunray is in such a vulnerable position, but Gunray is a greedy fool.

 

Thanks everyone for the responses. Yeah, it definitely makes sense that Gunray and the other Separatists knew all along that CIS wasn't really meant to break off from the Republic since they weren't in it for idealistic reasons. I guess they believed that whatever Sidious's plans were, they'd somehow benefit from it. After the death of Grievous and Order 66, Sidious likely informed the Separatists that he had managed to fully take control of the Republic while also ridding himself of the Jedi, which could've been the plan Gunray was referring to.

Also, it does appear that Gunray and the Separatists never knew that Sidious and Palpatine were the same person. Thanks Lord_Anzeroth for that passage. It still just really annoys me that they never guessed Sidious was Palpatine. It's so obvious. It does make sense that in that particular passage, Gunray wouldn't have known who Sidious was since Palpatine was just a random, unknown senator at the time. But once Palpatine became chancellor, it seems pretty far-fetched that Gunray wouldn't have made the connection. I guess maaaybe one could suggest that Sidious used the force to somehow further obfuscate his identity. That seems like quite the loophole, though...

 

Even Grievous (in the novelization of RoTS) doesn't know Sidious is Palpatine:


As he entered his customized pod, he reflected that he was, for the first time in his career, violating orders: though he was under strict orders to leave the Chancellor unharmed, Palpatine was about to die alongside his precious Jedi.
Then Grievous shrugged, and sighed. What more could he have done? There was a war on, after all.
He was sure Lord Sidious would forgive him.

 

Am I the only one who finds this funny?

 

I liked it as well. Stover does wry humour a lot.

 

He sure does.

 

Did Oppo Rancisis attend the battle of Geonosis? I don't think he did but my friend needs to know.

 

I'd have loved if when Vader kills everyone except for the Neimoidians, he turned on a holographic broadcast of Palpatine declaring the Empire, allowing Gunray to realize in his last moments that Palpatine is Sidious.

 

Hello, I was wondering, were there any changes made to the theatrical versions of the prequels in their VHS and DVD releases?

 

Several
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/List_of_changes_in_Star_Wars_re-releases#