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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

Lit Ignorance is Bias: The Diversity Manifesto

Discussion in 'Literature' started by CooperTFN, Sep 2, 2012.

  1. Jedi Ben

    Jedi Ben Chosen One star 9

    Registered:
    Jul 19, 1999
    Ultimates Dissassembled
    Hunger
    Cataclysm: Ultimates
    Cataclysm: X-Men

    Sadly, his involvement in the Ultimate-verse looks to be at an end with the cancellation of the new Ultimate FF book.
     
  2. patchworkz7

    patchworkz7 Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 26, 2004
    Yes, normally Millar is content to rip off former friend Grant Morrison, but with Ultimate Hulk he really reached for it and ripped off Alan Moore's version of Mr Hyde; a super-strong cannibal who is the worst of man's urges manifest.

    I always thought to myself; "What's missing from the Hulk is rape and cannibalism."

    And then Jeph Loeb came and decided to try to out declass the joint by writing incest with horrible artwork in Vol 3.

    ETA: Please do stop by Tate Modern to see my instillation of my newest piece of art; "Incest with Horrible Artwork", which is a pile of VC Andrews' "Flowers in the Attic" that I have defecated on. The Guardian is already calling it a daring shot across the bows of modern sensibilities.
     
  3. Gamiel

    Gamiel Chosen One star 9

    Registered:
    Dec 16, 2012
    So, beside Ultimate Spider-Man, what do people like with/from the Ultimate universe?
     
  4. Jedi Ben

    Jedi Ben Chosen One star 9

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    Jul 19, 1999
    You have to ask? Surely one answer has be Nick Fury.
     
  5. Gamiel

    Gamiel Chosen One star 9

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    Dec 16, 2012
    I count him in with Ultimate Spider-Man since it is USM Nick Fury who is likable, unlike Ultimates Nick Fury who is a a-hole who the authors tries to hard to show as badass.
     
  6. Jedi Ben

    Jedi Ben Chosen One star 9

    Registered:
    Jul 19, 1999
    True that.
     
  7. CooperTFN

    CooperTFN TFN EU Staff Emeritus star 7 VIP

    Registered:
    Jul 8, 1999
    This conversation has taken an odd turn.
     
  8. Gamiel

    Gamiel Chosen One star 9

    Registered:
    Dec 16, 2012
    Things I liked:
    * Wolverine as Magneto's minion because of what Weapon X did to him.
    * asian-american Wasp who's powers come from being a mutant.
    * the parts of Captain Americas origins that was used in the movie.
    * environmentalist Tor that most people think is insane.
    * Toad and Cyclops being friends.
    * probably other things that I can not remember right now.

    How so?
     
  9. Quinnocent-Till-Sith

    Quinnocent-Till-Sith Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 21, 2004
    I agree Ultimates 3 was awful but not because of Joe Madureira. ;)
     
  10. patchworkz7

    patchworkz7 Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 26, 2004

    I don't have a real beef against Madureira, but his storytelling in those issues was HORRIBLE. It could have been worse because Loeb was trying to explain what was happening but I still think it was the wrong choice of artist along with a bad story.
     
  11. Ghost

    Ghost Chosen One star 8

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    Oct 13, 2003
    So, to sum up the last 300+ pages, what are the main forms of bias in Star Wars as it is?
     
  12. Vthuil

    Vthuil Force Ghost star 5

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    Jan 3, 2013
    Omission, basically.

    Or did you mean in-universe?
     
  13. CooperTFN

    CooperTFN TFN EU Staff Emeritus star 7 VIP

    Registered:
    Jul 8, 1999
    The ones I talked about in the OP, 300 pages ago.
     
  14. Gamiel

    Gamiel Chosen One star 9

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    Dec 16, 2012
  15. sharkymcshark

    sharkymcshark Jedi Knight star 3

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    Dec 12, 2013
    I saw it and then I saw the PC gone mad card get played after 8 posts so I closed it.
     
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  16. Ghost

    Ghost Chosen One star 8

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    Oct 13, 2003
    Nothing else has been thought of besides race, gender, sexual orientation, species/droid?
     
  17. Jedi Ben

    Jedi Ben Chosen One star 9

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    Jul 19, 1999
    Well, if you've something to add....
     
  18. Cynical_Ben

    Cynical_Ben Force Ghost star 4

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    Aug 12, 2013
    On the Marvel superheroine front: Apparently, Sony is revamping their entire schedule of Spider-Man films, sliding the third Amazing Spider-Man back to 2018, moving Sinister Six up to 2016, and aiming a "female superhero movie" for 2017. I'm not up on Spider-Man's lore outside of the cartoons, how many female superheroes would Sony have the rights to? I can only think of Spider-Woman, Black Cat and Silver Sable, barring their re-inventing a traditionally male character or doing a distaff counterpart.

    Also related, the same executive team that's apparently greenlighting this is the one pushing for a woman-focused reboot of Ghostbusters and are trying to lure Paul Feig, the guy who did Bridesmaids, away from Fox to do it.
     
  19. CooperTFN

    CooperTFN TFN EU Staff Emeritus star 7 VIP

    Registered:
    Jul 8, 1999
    Possibly, but I'm not exactly keeping a running tally. The OP is essentially a summary of the previous two threads; I don't recall this one breaking any dramatically new ground. Also the conversation is more about the methods of bias, not coming up with demographic categories.
     
  20. Ghost

    Ghost Chosen One star 8

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    Oct 13, 2003


    Well, I'm just asking because I wanted to ask next how you think the ST and New EU would do on each of those categories... and what you think the best EU work so far has been for each of those categories.

    I ask because the new casting news on Episode 7 seems positive so far, even if the first big announcement wasn't. We have several women, at least 3 characters of color, a man that could pass as Latino or Middle-Eastern, and I think they recently cast an Asian woman too. (No news on alien, droid, or gay characters, but you can't really announce that just with casting... though casting Serkis is a big hint there will be at least one new alien character). I just hope most of these guys get significant screentime and some dialogue.

    I'm not sure about which EU works are best for each category, though I think Legacy Volume II is probably a good contendor.
     
  21. CooperTFN

    CooperTFN TFN EU Staff Emeritus star 7 VIP

    Registered:
    Jul 8, 1999
    Well, despite (or because of) our efforts to "score" a lot of stories, it's very difficult to talk authoritatively about works being "bad" or "good" at diversity. One thing we have discussed in this particular thread is that something like Kenobi can do pretty poorly in terms of diversity but be largely forgiven because it's mostly about a couple small families--and vice-versa, big galaxy-spanning stories steeped in the halls of power like LotF have a higher standard to meet even if they're not scoring much different from Kenobi.

    And that goes doubly for Episode VII--there's a lot of potential in that cast, but if the men are the real stars, and/or the women are two-dimensional excuses for the men to be heroic, and/or the POCs come across as tokens rather than real people, it doesn't matter what the demographics are.

    I agree with you that Legacy--both volumes, in fact--is maybe the best overall at utilizing a diverse cast. Ostrander and Duursema tend to be a little melodramatic for my taste, but their stories (and now Bechko/Hardman's) feel more like my personal vision of the GFFA than most others'.
     
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  22. Quinnocent-Till-Sith

    Quinnocent-Till-Sith Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 21, 2004
    Both Jackpots, presumably.

    Jessica Drew/Spider-Woman;
    Julia Carpenter/Spider-Woman/Arachne/Madame Web (II);
    May Parker/Spider-Girl,
    Araña, maybe?
    If the Ultimate universe is included: Ultimate Spider-Woman/Jessica Drew/Female clone of Peter Parker

    Lots of spiders, basically.
     
  23. Gamiel

    Gamiel Chosen One star 9

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    Dec 16, 2012
    I don't think Jessica Drew is part of the Spider-Man licence
     
  24. Valin__Kenobi

    Valin__Kenobi Author: Tinker, Tailor, Soldier, Praji star 4 VIP

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    Mar 30, 2004
  25. Gamiel

    Gamiel Chosen One star 9

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    Dec 16, 2012
    Zorrixor likes this.