CT Did Luke know anything about the Chosen One prophecy?

I simply stated my perception, I don't believe Luke knew of the Prophecy as there is no film evidence I have seen.

 

I think it still could have worked, even with an errant line like that. After all, Vader and Palpatine talk about Anakin like he's a separate person in ESB. A preference for looking at things "from a certain point of view" seems to be one of the traits shared by both the Jedi and the Sith.

 

No

 

The prophecy means nothing in the OT as it wasn’t even thought of, so it’s open to all our own interpretations if it does actually tie in or not with the PT. Personally I don’t agree with the comparison of between Luke and Leia (OT) and Palpatine (PT) hiding in plain sight. That’s a real leap to say that they were doing that in the OT before it was even written for the PT. Leia knew nothing about her lineage and Luke was the only Jedi who was at the forefront of the Rebellion and so in plain sight, and I don’t think either were manipulating the force in anyway like Palpatine was.

The line about Anakin bringing balance to the force is again open to different interpretations. Is yours right? I don’t know as I tied myself in knots trying to make sense of what you said. But no one other than Lucas knows for sure what was meant by it. Clearly none of us obviously have a clue what it meant.

But I think we can safely say Luke knew nothing of a prophecy.

Seriously? Do you mean just the prophecy thing or the whole saga in general?

 

Yeah, it turns out some people, on this Star Wars fan board, for Star Wars fans, actually don't hate every aspect of the Star Wars prequels. In fact, more than just some.

Putting aside sarcasm, I would tend to agree that the prequel trilogy was very well thought-out when it came to tying in with the originals. And to do that while still surprising people with how the hinted-at back story actually played out is something else indeed. I think that qualifies as a major writing achievement.

 

Hate is quite a strong word. Hate leads to suffering.........

I think the shoe horning in of some characters from the OT to tie in with the PT story and how some of those characters interlinked is a small gripe. Also some stuff I felt was unnecessary (midichlorians) or not explained sufficiently (the prophecy - which I think could have been a more important part of the story).

Looking at both trilogies separately I think that the PT benefitted in that the story of the OT is relatively simple in a way, quite black and white, yet leaving plenty of stuff open to be expanded on in future or previous stories.

I know its being discussed on another thread, but it will be interesting to see if said prophecy will appear in the ST as part of Lukes continued story.

 

At this point that's all we can really go on. There is nothing in the OT that indicates Luke knew of the prophecy, and I think it is safe to assume that since the Jedi were all but extinct, combined with Obi-Wan and Yoda's earnest belief that Vader was beyond vindication, that they wouldn't have put that burden on Luke.

 

I think it's completely wrong to say that Yoda believed Vader was beyond vindication. That may have been true for Obi-Wan, but definitely not for Yoda.

 

Oh, he knew. Somehow...he's always known.

 

YODA: "Once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny. Consume you it will, as it did Obi-wan's apprentice."

Sounds like he shared the same opinion in TESB.

 

To take that one step further -- in ROTS Yoda first promulgated the point of view that Anakin was dead, consumed by Darth Vader.

 

And yet at the same time Yoda admonished Luke for even thinking about using violence to solve his problems. If he didn't think Vader could be redeemed, how did he expect things to play out when Luke finally faced him and the Emperor? He clearly wasn't expecting Luke to go full Rambo on them, so what was he expecting?

He's had a lot of time to think in that swamp.

Remember, Yoda also used to be a great warrior. But when Luke meets him, Yoda's not about that at all. People change their mind and learn from experiences.

 

Probably not. I doubt Obi-Wan still viewed Anakin as the chosen one after the fight on Mustafar. Even the Jedi Council were starting to doubt it before Anakin fell. There would have been no reason for Luke to know of it prior to the events of Return of the Jedi. Now afterwards, its likely he did find out about it from the force ghosts.

 

Obviously not.
When he was living on Tatooine he didn't know anything about his past, the Force, the Jedi or his father (he was in hiding after all, believing he was just the nephew of a rough farmer named Owen Lars).
When Obi-Wan and Yoda started training him, they didn't want Luke to know anything about his father, therefore they wouldn't tell him anything about a prophecy (that was obviously misread).
Once Luke knows the truth, we witness the conversations with Yoda and Obi-Wan and they don't tell him about it. Neither of them believed in the prophecy.

 

That's all well and good, but we can really only go off of information relayed to us on screen. In ROTJ, Yoda says Luke would not be a Jedi until he confronts Vader. Luke then tells Obi-Wan he can't kill his own father. Obi-Wan replies to Luke "then the Emperor has already won." He then has the "point of view" conversation where he tells Luke that Anakin is dead.

 

Jedi can use the Force to fight, but they cannot use it in anger, hate and fueled by fear. Yoda's teachings was about Luke understanding what the Force is about and how it can be abused in the name of justice.

Uh, no. Yoda's views on war were no different from before the Clone Wars. A Jedi is not supposed to be a great warrior. That ideology is for Sith Lords and non Force users. Yoda is telling Luke that fighting does not make him a great person. It is your test of character that does so.

 

Yeah, that's Obi-Wan, not Yoda. I'm not really interested in arguing about Obi-Wan's point of view right now.

I think you're ignoring a lot of subtext and depriving Yoda of the substantive character development Lucas granted him.

 

I really don't see how Yoda maintaining a certain philosophical ideology over a period of thirty-plus years deprives him of any character development. There is no subtext here. Yoda and Obi Wan both thought Anakin was beyond saving. Luke was the ONLY one (save his dead mother) who thought there was good in him. And at any rate, none of this has anything to do with the OP regarding whether Luke knew of the prophecy.

 

No, you're just placing something that isn't there.

1. Yoda tested Luke to see what kind of mess he was going to have to work with. Luke, in his arrogance, said that Yoda was a great warrior. To which Yoda laughs and says that fighting in a war doesn't make him a great person. This is true because a great person is defined by other actions. In the PT, Yoda never boasts about being a great warrior. Only one Jedi says anything about combat and it's Obi-wan. In fact, Obi-wan tells Anakin that if he dedicated himself to his training, he'd be better than Yoda to which Anakin thinks he is. Dooku, a Jedi turned Sith, thinks that he is stronger than Yoda.

2. The test at the tree cave was not about being a warrior, but about Luke facing himself. Luke has fear within him. The fear of failure. He also has anger and hate for Vader for killing his father and his first Master. Yoda tells him to not take the weapons because he's been through this himself. He knows what will happen, but Luke refuses to listen because he's afraid.

"Part of the going into the tree is learning about the Force. Learning about the fact that the Force is within you, and at the same time, you create your own bad vibes. So, if you think badly about things or you act badly, or you bring fear into a situation, you're going to have to defend yourself or you're going to have to suffer the consequences for that. In this particular case, he takes his sword in with him which means he's going to have combat. If he didn't, he wouldn't. He's creating this situation in his mind because, on a larger level, what caused Darth Vader to become Darth Vader is the same thing that makes Luke bring that sword in with him. And so, just as later on we find out Darth Vader is actually his father - so he is part of himself - but he has the capacity to become Darth Vader simply by using hate and fear and using weapons as oppose to using compassion and caring and kindness. But that's the big danger of the series, is that he will become Darth Vader."

--George Lucas, TESB DVD Commentary.

That doesn't mean that using a Lightsaber is wrong, but the reason why he's using it is wrong.

 

In the EU, Luke puts his fallen student, Kyp Durron, through a similar situation. Kyp takes his lightsaber in, but, when confronted with the "opponent" - fights down the temptation to attack, and passes the test.

Maybe in TESB Luke could have passed the test in a similar way - if he'd resisted using the weapons he brought with him.

 

No because by that time, I assume Yoda no longer believes Anakin to be the Chosen One.

 

And you're refusing to see something that quite clearly is there. There are no ifs, ands, or buts inherent in the message being conveyed by the cave scene. It's a symbolic condemnation of hate and violence in all its forms. And Yoda is the caretaker of this message, not an oblivious bystander.

Lucas didn't accidentally go back and create a prequel trilogy where Yoda's most prominent role is as a warrior and a general, in stark contrast to the zen guru who belittles warriors that we meet in the OT. He did it on purpose, as a way of saying something. You can equivocate and find numerous outs that seemingly negate the intended message, but you can do that with a lot of things. I'm just saying that when someone puts something onscreen, they can be assumed to have a reason for it.

Here, have a quote from Lucas:

"The part I am working on now is mostly about Darth Vader, who he is, where he came from, how he became Luke and Leia's father, what his relationship to Ben is. In Jedi, the film is really about the Redemption of this fallen angel. Ben is the fitting good angel, and Vader is the bad angel who started off good. All these years Ben has been waiting for Luke to come of age so that he can become a Jedi and redeem his father. That's what Ben has been doing, but you don't know this in the first film."
--George Lucas

If Obi-Wan's intention all along was for Luke to redeem his father, then I think it was probably Yoda's as well.

 

The point of the cave is that Luke doesn't understand the dark side of the Force and it is a test that he must take in order to understand. Just as Yoda took that same set of tests over twenty years earlier and passed, regardless of using his Lightsaber. When he went into the cave, he faced the darkness in himself.



And from that he faced Palpatine and understood what was required of him.



Not that fighting was the problem in general, but that making sacrifices and facing the darkness within, was the key. Not that a Jedi can't ever fight.

 

What's that from?

It doesn't really make sense in the context of how Yoda says "If once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny." and how Ben is upset and worried when Luke says "I can't kill my own father" ("Then the Emperor has already won. You were our last hope")

In The Life & Legend of Obi-Wan Kenobi, Ben is portrayed as being extremely surprised when Anakin is redeemed:

Had Obi-Wan's spirit not witnessed Vader's action, he never would have believed it. Vader, the same monster that Obi-Wan had left to die on Mustafar, had sacrificed himself to save his son. And suddenly Obi-Wan realized where he had failed. For unlike Luke, Obi-Wan had not only believed that Anakin was consumed by the dark side, but had actually refused to believe that any goodness remained within Vader. And by refusing to allow that possibility, Obi-Wan had condemned not only his former friend but his own capacity for hope.
Fortunately, Luke's unwavering faith in his father's innate goodness had proved to be a stronger force than the power of the dark side.

 

I agree with you on that point. I don't think the point was that all fighting is wrong always at all times for all people, or that no one should ever physically resist evil. But what we might call the warrior mentality--the idea that striking down your enemy is an end in and of itself--is unequivocally wrong.

But the main point of contention here, I thought, was the idea that Yoda or Ben may have intended for Luke to redeem his father all along. I'm not sure how we got sidetracked.

I got it from the Lucas Quotes thread in the Saga forum. It appears to be from the Annotated Screenplays.

I think Yoda's point was to drive home just how dangerous the dark side is, not necessarily to say that you can never make the decision to reject it at some point. Because the thing is, Yoda was right. The dark side did dominate Anakin's destiny. He at least partially redeemed himself, but the only reason he had to be redeemed was because he started down the dark path in the first place, and that redemption cost him his life. Like Lucas has said, you can always stop the horror, but you can never really make up for all the evil you did. That's why it's such a noble choice on Anakin's part. There's no absolution of guilt or washing away of the sins of the past--there's just the present moment. Only a few people will probably ever remember Anakin for the good he did, as opposed to the bad. The galaxy at large will remember him as a tyrannical mass murderer. And yet he still chose to do the right thing. It's a pretty ballsy thing to sacrifice your life for that, knowing that it won't even ensure you so much as a heroic legacy.

At the same time, I think a lot of the things Yoda and Ben say are for rhetorical purposes, more to make Luke think than to educate him. Some of the things Yoda says may even be quite wrong when taken literally. The real lesson there is to be confident enough to ignore your teachers when they're incorrect. If I'm not mistaken, that's also a rather zen way of operating.