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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

Saga Clarification on how the Jedi "recruit" other Jedi

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by Blur, Aug 25, 2014.

  1. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2012
    In answer to the OP's question, which seems to have gotten a bit lost.

    Based on the films the following seems most likely.
    All children born in the republic have a midi-test done soon after birth, along with the usual medical examinations. If the number is high enough, a call goes out to the Jedi who sends someone to look into this.
    I would think that the parents are given a choice but the films never say one way or another.

    Given that jedi-to be are taken in at a very young age, they can't make a choice for themselves and you can't really test their Force abilities either. So a blood test makes sense.

    One does wonder, if we assume that parents are given a choice, what happens if they change their minds?
    Have they no legal recourse? Or say that only one parent gave their consent and the other was unaware of what happened. What then?

    Onwards to some issues raised in the thread.

    Alexrd
    I disagree, I think they are very different.
    Anakin is scolded for having certain feelings, like missing his mother and being afraid to loose her. Those are very normal feelings for 9 year olds. But to the Jedi they were apparently a big problem.
    Anakin married Padme, that would get him expelled for the jedi order.

    Luke is never admonished for caring about his friends or his feelings and insight. He is simply warned that they can be used against him.
    So the emotions themselves isn't the problem, just how evil people might exploit them.
    Kind of like today, if a person has children then some ruthless character might kidnapp them and try to get a ransom. But if a person has no friends, family or loved ones at all, that approach would not work.

    Also, the PT Jedi were raised by other Jedi from a very young age and not allowed any contact with their parents or family. Luke is raised by his family. So this is a total abandonment by a core belief system that the PT jedi have.

    One might see it like this, it is the differnece between forbidding someone from ever tasting alcohol and warning this person of the dangers involved in drinking.

    Alexrd
    I don't entierly agree.
    I seemed to me that some feelings were forbidden by the PT Jedi.
    Romantic love was not allowed, nor was the parent-child love allowed or any emotions towards siblings or other family members. The jedi were also supposed to never mourn or grieve.

    As I said above, Luke is never told that he must not care about others or have feelings for them, just that those feelings can be exploited by Vader or Palpatine.
    Also I would argue that it is Luke's feelings towards his father that saves the day in the end.
    Yoda and Obi-Wan have apparently given up on Vader and Yoda seems to say that once you turn, there is no going back, you are damned. Luke disagrees with them and feels that there is good in Vader and he can still be saved. And he proven right in the end.
    I would also argue that thoose feelings motivate Luke's actions in the latter part of the film.
    When Vader lands on Endor, Luke senses him and knows that he can't stay as Vader will come looking for him.
    So he leaves, as not to endager the mission of his friends. But he doesn't run away, he goes to Vader in the hope of trying to reach him. He still cares about him and wants to save him.
    So one could say that in both ESB and RotJ, Luke goes alone into the loins den in order to save people that he cares about.

    Finish this later.
    Old Stoneface
     
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  2. CT-867-5309

    CT-867-5309 Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Jan 5, 2011
    Yeah, it just doesn't come off as very accurate.

    I didn't see them as secretive. What were they hiding, really? I literally can't think of anything. Should they have made the Temple out of glass, to make them more transparent? Should they have tweeted what they were serving for lunch in the cafeteria? The spy mission should be set aside, as it was specifically an exception and under extraordinary circumstances.

    Removed from the people? Is that how Anakin was found? Is that why Obi-Wan hangs out with some greasy slob at a diner? Is that why Yoda is best pals with the Wookiees?

    Their representatives are the Senators, which the Jedi are very close to. That's just way off.

    Their link to the outside? What does that even mean? As if the Jedi literally never leave the Temple and have no idea what is going on outside it...despite having perhaps the most comprehensive archives in the galaxy. Maybe he means the people's link to the Jedi, which again isn't right because of examples like Anakin, Dex and the Wookiees.

    Isolated? Is that how they died? I thought they died serving in the Republic military, often surrounded by both the soldiers under their command and the locals (like the Pau'ans and the Wookiees) of the diverse planets they were defending. Maybe he's referring to anti-Jedi sentiment leaving them with no supporters, no one to come to their defense when Order 66 came down...then again I find this supposed anti-Jedi sentiment noticeably lacking in the movies, and the Jedi actually do have supporters like Padme, Bail and the Wookiees.

    I'm a fan of the NJO, but was never a fan of Destiny's Way, I don't get the love for it (though "Ackbar's back" is obvious pandering), it's just terrible characterizations of, well, everything and everyone. Everyone from Vergere and Jacen, coming off Traitor making it especially egregious, to someone as easy to nail as Pellaeon.
     
  3. Alexrd

    Alexrd Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 7, 2009
    He's not being scolded, he's being interviewed and tested in order to determine if he should proceed to Jedi training.

    Attachement was a problem, yes. Yoda doesn't warn him about missing his mother, but about his fear of losing her. That feeling is somewhat selfish for a Jedi (although perfectly natural), because it's not about her well being but about him not having or being with her. It's also the reason for why Jedi training starts at a very young age: to avoid such strong attachments and ease their training.

    It would.

    Exactly. And yes, Luke is not admonished for caring about his friends, but for letting his feelings for his friends affect his judgement. In the end, the Yoda was proven right.

    Total abandonment? No. Yoda makes his reservations clear right off the bat about Luke's age, but it's not like they had much of a choice in that situation.

    Again, they had to adapt to what they had. But the teaching and core beliefs remained the same. From a legacy point of view, there is no difference.

    Anakin could love Padmé, even in a romantic way, but that's as far as he could go (and he still had to train himself to let go in order to not let such attachment affect his judgement). What's forbidden is to engage in a romantic relationship and get married. And yes, Jedi aren't supposed to mourn or grieve because they are selfless.

    Which is the whole point. Obi-Wan had friends. But if someone happened to threaten Dexter while he was on a mission, he wouldn't rush across the galaxy trying to save him, because he's a Jedi and doesn't let his emotions get in the way.

    Partially, it is. And again, this is a very particular situation. If Yoda or Obi-Wan were in Luke's shoes, it wouldn't have worked.

    Considering what he had done, I can't blame them for (apparently) thinking that way.

    He feels good in Vader once he discovers the truth about his connection to him. In ANH and TESB he seemed quite ready to kill him, and I believe he would if he had the skill.

    Why would he?

    Two very different situations. in TESB, Luke lets his emotions get in the way and rushes to save his friends. In the end, he doesn't. He almost got killed and his friends were the ones who ended up saving him.

    In RotJ, he's not rushing anywhere. His training was finished. He was asked (and wanted) to face Vader. But this time, knowing the truth, he would try to save him.
     
  4. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    Anakin is found because Qui-Gon was forced to make a detour to Tatooine to get parts to fix the ship.

    Obi-Wan met Dex while on a mission - Dex was a petty criminal - Obi-Wan ended up recruiting him as an informant.

    And Yoda having "good relations with the Wookiees" may be down to him having carried out a number of missions to Kashyyyk in the past.
     
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  5. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    OK. Not sure why the circumstances of their meeting matters. The Jedi are not banned from socializing with non-Jedi, they are not locked in the Temple, therefore they are not "isolated" from the people.
     
  6. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    They can be "voluntarily isolated" given the whole "non-attachment" thing.

    And as far as I can tell, Jedi only normally leave the Temple as part of missions of some kind.

    It should be noted that Destiny's Way came out only very shortly after AoTC (October 2002 compared to May 2002) - the author may simply not have drawn any conclusions about the Dex & Obi-Wan scene.

    Even if it was Yoda, Obi-Wan would have been willing to sacrifice him.

    RoTS novel:

    "Master Yoda, you and I have been close since I was a boy. An infant. Yet if ending this war one week sooner - one day sooner - were to require that I sacrifice your life, you know I would."
    "As you should," Yoda said. "As I would yours, young Obi-Wan. As any Jedi would any other, in the cause of peace."
     
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  7. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    You seem to be making a westernized assumption that people who do not feel "attached" are lonely, isolated, possibly cold and unfeeling.

    The Jedi are hardly alone in the PT, nor do they seem to be lonely. They definitely have friendships, both among the Jedi and outside the Order.

    I'm not seeing the problem here.

    Yes, Obi-Wan would be willing to sacrifice Yoda for a cause that the Jedi were fighting for, or to save the lives of many others, if that's what it took. Also not seeing the problem. When I read that conversation in the novel, I took it as an indication that Obi-Wan and Yoda had their heads on straight, and Anakin was dangerous and vulnerable.

    I'd say a willingness to sacrifice principles or ideals over a person is far more dangerous than the reverse.
     
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  8. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2012
    In my eyes he got scolded and Yoda made a very dire prophet of doom speech about how bad it was for Anakin to miss his mother.


    It still speaks of how the jedi have limited their emotions and have a limited understanding of those that have those emotions. They have never experienced the love from a parent.

    And once Anakin has been accepted, what do they do about Shmi?
    Someone with some sense would realize that Anakin is worried because she is a slave on a crime infested world. Freeing her from slavery and allow the occasional contact would help Anakin to let go of his fear. But apparently they do nothing.

    And Obi-Wan's reaction in AotC is also telling. When he finds out that Anakin is on Tatooine he wonder what he is doing there. Really? Obi-Wan knows that Anakin misses his mother and of late he has been tormented by dreams about her. He also knows that Anakin isn't all that good about following the rules. So Anakin is off on his own and Obi-Wan can't understand that he would go and find his mother?

    I am not so sure. Had Luke NOT gone, what would have happened?
    Vader would in all likelyhood step up the torture and maybe even kill one to see if that gets a reaction. Once it becomes clear that Luke isn't coming, I think Leia and Chewie would probably die, and maybe Han as well. Vader isn't one who likes setbacks.

    If Luke feels their pain he would probably feel them dying. And that would hit him hard.
    He could blame himself or blame Yoda, "If you had let me go, I could have saved them."

    Also of Luke had not come, Leia and Chewie would not have been able to escape.

    I also think that altought he lost badly and had his hand cut off, I think he learned a lot from this experience. He also made a connection to his father that he otherwise might not have had.

    Had he stayed, who knows if Yoda would have told him the thruth.
    Given that they seem to want Luke to kill Vader, better then to not tell him.
    Or they tell him and make it clear that any hope of redemtpion is gone. Then Luke might not have had any desire to save his father.

    Also it is a bit odd that Yoda is so casual about letting the only other hope die.

    The PT Jedi, except Anakin, were all raised in an institution, Luke was raised by his family. The PT Jedi were not allowed any contact with family, Luke was. That is a total abandonment in my eyes.

    As for Luke's age, I assume you refer to ESB, they had plenty of options. Three years has passed after ANH and what stopped Yoda from telling Force-Ghost Obi-Wan to bring Luke? Nothing.

    Also, they could have taken Luke and Leia with them when they hid. But they choose not to.

    Again they could have raised Luke and Leia as Jedi from birth. Or they could have brought Luke to Yoda much sooner. But they didn't.
    I think there is a very big difference.

    Also, as I understand it, this no family rule has only been in place the last 1000 years, prior to that, Jedi were allowed to marry, have families etc. And while some couldn't handle it, the majority could.


    And this is why people see the Jedi as being cold and unemotional. They are supposed to repress or deny emotions normal humans have. There is nothing wrong about grief and it is proper to mourn.
    You say your goodbyes, let go and move on. In my experience, those that don't mourn are the ones who gets problems later on.
    Grief can turn to something bad but it doesn't have to.


    And this is something that people in this world, that have family and children can manage to do as well.


    It shows that Luke had an insight that Yoda and Obi-Wan didn't have. And his attachment to his father and vice versa was not something bad but good.


    Luke knows first hand what Vader is capable off and yet he can feel the good inside Vader but Yoda and Obi-Wan apparently can't. Yoda also seemed to write off Anakin as lost more quickly than Obi-Wan, who seemed to have some hope but it is gone now.


    In ANH Luke didn't have nearly enough connection to the Force to feel anything. And in ESB, he and Vader don't meet until the end. And there Luke is able to sense the good inside his father.


    Luke sense that Vader is on Endor and why, to find him. If he stays with Han and Leia, he puts them and the mission in danger. If he simply runs away, Vader will follow and Han and Leia and the mission are safe.
    So he leaves, to keep his friends safe. But he turns himself over to Vader in order to try and save him.
    A fool's hope perhaps but Luke was willing to try.


    [/QUOTE]

    Not so different. In ESB Luke is more influenced by strong emotion, the pain and suffering Han and Leia feels. He is calmer on Endor. Yet he chooses the same overall approach, to go into a dangerous place in order to save someone. Both missions seemed doomed to failiure, Bespin was a trap and handing himself to Vader seems in the surface like suicide. Yet Luke does it.
    And both times he faces suprises and new things. Both times he is put to a test.

    And in some ways, I'd say that he succeeds both times. He fails to beat Vader in ESB but he manages to avoid the temptation to join him and chooses death over turning evil. He says the same in RotJ, he would rather die than turn.
    In RotJ he is more seriously tested against the Dark Side and comes close but amanges to keep his calm and pass that test too. In ESB he was faced with the choice of "Turn or perish." So somewhat based on fear. In RotJ it is more about anger and not loosing control.

    Bye for now.
    The Guarding Dark
     
  9. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012

    Or at the very least, only in infancy/toddlerhood.
     
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  10. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001
    By continuing to learn about the Force. By letting the Jedi be raised by families and thus develop a better understanding of emotional connections.

    Right, but they've also forgot what it feels to be human. Luke, who was raised by a family, has a better understanding and connection than the Jedi could ever teach him.

    Not quite. If Obi-wan had been raised like Luke, he would have been better able to reach Anakin and they wouldn't have fought.

    Because Luke had a willingness to believe in his father, once he accepted the truth of who he was. Obi-wan gave up because his training had dictated that a Sith will never turn back. He couldn't sense it because he didn't have as deep a connection to Anakin, as Luke would to him.

    When he tries to kill him. When he says that the dark side will forever dominate your destiny and that the good person is gone, consumed by the dark side.


    Let the Jedi be raised by their parents and continue to study the Force.

    But only in passing. They're friends in the most basic of ways. Essentially it's like when you're polite to a schoolmate or a co-worker, but you're not the best of friends. The emotional connections aren't deep enough to truly matter. And because the Jedi spend so much time in the Temple, when not on missions, they're essentially like monks. They're not out there among the people in ways that matter.
     
  11. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Can someone explain to me how these arguments are not promoting the idea that the way families are constructed in our society is the only "correct" way?
     
  12. The_Phantom_Calamari

    The_Phantom_Calamari Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Nov 10, 2011
    Luke isn't even raised by a traditional family. He's raised by his step-aunt and step-uncle on a farm in the middle of nowhere and basically works as their indentured servant.

    Meanwhile, Leia is raised by literal royalty in a gilded palace and is influenced into becoming a galactic politician while she's still a teenager.

    I don't see how we're supposed to think their upbringings are so much better and more healthy than children who are raised by the Jedi.
     
  13. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 28, 2001
    A traditional family, as it is defined, is having two loving parents. Luke working on the farm is called chores. I don't know about you, but I had chores growing up and I didn't live on a farm like my mom and her siblings did.


    Because they had parents. They were allowed to forge genuine friendships. They learned the discipline of life different from what the Jedi taught, which was use the Force and control yourself.
     
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  14. The_Phantom_Calamari

    The_Phantom_Calamari Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Nov 10, 2011
    No, a "traditional family" is usually defined as a bread-winning father and a stay-at-home mother who are married to each other and raising their biological offspring. Yes, that's a ridiculous and overly narrow way to define a "proper" family, but I'm not the one who started down that road in this discussion.

    And I think Luke's role on that farm went a little bit beyond the chores you and I were expected to do when we were children. I'm not saying Luke's upbringing was the crime of the century or anything, but I think it's obvious that he wasn't living the classic Western suburban mow-the-lawn-and-empty-the-dishwasher home life.

    Jedi children have parents, too. They have teachers, caretakers, and eventually formal Masters who, if Obi-Wan is any indication of the norm, care deeply about their charges' well-being. It's not "traditional", but I don't think it's self-evidently unhealthy.

    And I don't see why "use the Force and control yourself" is such a bad way to raise a child in the Star Wars universe. What did Luke learn from Owen? He learned that he should stay on the farm and not ask dangerous questions. That does seem like a rather mistaken way to raise a child. Beru seemed to be a softer presence in Luke's life, but all we see in the movies is Owen dominating every discussion about Luke's upbringing. Beru raises her concerns with Owen in private, but she never speaks out about or seems to change the way Owen gives smothering directives to Luke.
     
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  15. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 28, 2001
    Uh, you're the one who brought up something that wasn't really relevant to the discussion.

    Have you lived on an active farm? Do you know what life is like on an active farm? Luke worked on a farm. His job was tending to moisture vaparators, watching out for Tusken Raiders, working during harvest and tending to the droids. Kids who work on the family farm do chores such as helping to milk the cows, collect eggs, help feed the pigs, tend to horses and herd cattle when they're out in the pasture grazing. These are the more simple farms, not the big commercial ones. You wouldn't call those kids indentured servants, now would you?

    But they're raised to only see them as teachers and allies. Not as family members.


    Luke was raised to love selflessly. To not be so selfish. Even when he wanted to leave, he knew that he couldn't just run away and leave them in a lurch. And when they died, he moved on with his life. He didn't blame himself for his failure to be there to save them.
     
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  16. CT-867-5309

    CT-867-5309 Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Jan 5, 2011
    Yeah, this thread has taken a ridiculous turn.

    I really have no idea what people are on about, I have no idea what they want or expect.

    The Jedi aren't like us, they're not "normal". Duh. What did you expect? They're monks, and they're supposed to be. Are you a monk? I'm not a monk. So why would they be like us? Why would they live like us?

    Yet, they're similar enough to monks in our reality. Are these monks just so wrong about how they live their lives? What's wrong with monks?

    It also flies in the face of the Jedi from the OT, who were anything but normal. They were hermit monks living in total isolation. Many people thought this was how Jedi actually lived based on the OT. We see this come up in the EU, Luke thinks about becoming a hermit and sorta does it for a minute in BFC. It's still a common idea even today, which is why Luke (the shining example of Jedi here) becoming a hermit after ROTJ is commonly discussed as a possibility for Episode VII. Hell, Luke sorta starts to become isolated, just a little bit, in the OT itself.

    It's like people want the Jedi to wake up, punch a clock, come home to have dinner with the family, then go out to the bar and knock back a few beers with pals while watching the game. Of course, Obi-Wan shows he's not above going for a drink in AOTC.

    There's just a huge prejudice toward the PT Jedi, and it really is an example of seeing them as "The Other". See this thread as an example.
     
  17. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    I absolutely believe that Jedi Masters feel genuine love for their Padawans.

    And I'm not sure what is so wrong with being taught self-control.

    And yes, there is a prejudice against the PT Jedi. The 7SA thread on Luke's New or Old Jedi Order is another great example. People want Luke's New Order to be, well...like us.

    And they aren't. Not should they be.
     
  18. The_Phantom_Calamari

    The_Phantom_Calamari Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Nov 10, 2011
    I didn't start the discussion about which family structures are good and which are bad. I absolutely did not.

    No, I have never worked on a farm. Yes, I would consider expecting kids to do chores like that every day to be going slightly overboard (those are jobs for employees), though it would of course depend on how much of their time is occupied by the chores and the number of chores they are expected to tend to on a daily basis--but, generally, I wouldn't think it would amount to indentured servitude. However, I think Luke's role on the farm went beyond the roles expected of modern-day children who live on farms, especially when it comes to watching out for armed Tusken Raiders who want to kill them. And especially given the pressure we see Owen exert on Luke to stay on the farm rather than leaving to do what he really wants to do with his life.

    Says who? Anakin tells Obi-Wan he's like a father to him, and Obi-Wan doesn't disagree. Obi-Wan later refers to Anakin as a brother. All the evidence points to the Master-Padawan relationship being an openly familial one, and I'd imagine this applies equally to the relationships between Younglings and their caretakers/instructors.

    Anakin was raised to love selflessly. It didn't take, because he was too attached to his mother, with whom he spent the first nine years of his life.

    I find the idea that Owen raised Luke to love selflessly to be laughable in the extreme. Look at the example Owen set. He expected Luke to stay on the farm because it was in Owen's best interest, even though it wasn't in Luke's. Even Beru didn't seem worried that Luke leaving would be the end of the farm; it would just be inconvenient, and Owen didn't want to deal with that. Owen had previously promised Luke that he'd be able to leave and join the Academy; he'd promised it several times, always saying that Luke could leave next season. Owen wasn't in the right; he was being dishonest and selfish, and that's all Luke ever knew up until the point he met Ben Kenobi and went on to fight in the Alliance and train under Yoda. That's when he learned the value of being part of a group, and sacrificing for that group, and sometimes letting others in that group make their own sacrifices even at the expense of your own emotional attachment to them.
     
  19. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001
    The fact is that a family structure is better than the Jedi method.

    It all depends on the farm, the number of children and what chores are divided up. But the fact is that there is plenty to do on a farm.

    Not really. In the post Civil War era of the 19th century, older kids had to help look out for cattle rustlers and Native Americans.

    That pressure was due to the fact that there was a war on and he didn't want Luke to be killed. He didn't want him to become a Jedi. And if he knew that Anakin became Vader, he certainly doesn't want that to happen to him.

    Anakin's the only one who says this and he's still being taught to not have attachments and failing miserably at it. As to being like brothers, being good friends is not the same as truly being family. Not by blood, but in a way far deeper than they really saw each other.

    Right. Luke grew up and outgrew his deep attachment to the Lars. He could leave them behind without fear of their dying. Of them being alone.


    "It's very clear from the beginning here, that Luke's fate, even when the aunt and uncle are talking, is not to stay on the farm. A future that's just not in him, his destiny lies in a grander scheme of things. Even they know that. I mean they know it for other reasons, that we don't know about yet."

    --George Lucas, ANH DVD Commentary.

    BERU: "He has too much of his father in him."

    OWEN: "That's what I'm afraid of."

    OBI-WAN: "I have something here for you. Your father wanted you to have this when you were old enough, but your uncle wouldn't allow it. He feared you might follow old Obi-Wan on some damned-fool idealistic crusade like your father did."
     
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  20. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

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    Mar 4, 2011
    According to whom?

    This goes back to my question about why we are assuming that the westernized view is better.
     
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  21. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    Why is it always "westernized"? Don't "Northern", "Southern", and "Eastern" cultures have a family structure as the default?

    As far as I can tell, the only time truly communal childcare was embraced for a society as a whole was the kibbutzes - and even they allowed children to return to their parents for a short time each day.
     
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  22. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2012
    One thing that just occurred to me,

    Anakin, who was raised by his mother and had attachments to her.
    Yes he turns to the dark Side but he also does something that no one before has been able to do. Turn back to the light.
    Never before, as least as far as I know, has someone that turned to the Dark Side been able to turn back.
    And both Jedi and Sith thought this was impossible.
    Luke disagreed and he and Anakin proved all of them wrong.

    So perhaps his attachments lead Anakin down a dark path but they also got him out and back into the light.

    Some comments;

    @anakinfansince1983
    Why?
    What is so wrong with some Jedi having contact with his or her parents, having a wife/husband/boyfriend/girlfriend or children?
    To me this is a narrow viewpoint, the Jedi CAN'T be this, CAN'T have that and so on.

    If Luke does have a family and children in the ST and it works for the story and the characters, I won't mind.
    And I certainly won't object to it on the principle that Luke/the Jedi must not have family or children.

    I am not saying that having a family is "better" than living on your own.
    However I think that banning families is wrong. So it is not a question of "better" but rather if the option exists or not.
    By forcing the PT Jedi to have no contact with their parents and never having a family or children of their own, I do think they are being denied some things. Sure they could leave but how easy is it to turn your back on the only life you know.

    @CT-867-5309
    First, I don't know who you talked to but neither I nor any of my friends who saw the OT back in the day assumed that prior to the Empire, that all Jedi were monks or lived in isolation.

    Obi-Wan and Yoda does but the Jedi have been hunted to near extinction by the Empire so of course they would be in hiding. What the OT tells us in no way paints the picture that the Jedi are monks or live like them.
    Obi-Wan used to be a General and served Leia's father, the King of Alderaan. Not something I normally associate with monks. The Jedi were also called Jedi KNIGHTS, not Jedi Monks.

    The thought I had was more in line with Samurai or Western Knights. And Samurai was something that Lucas thought of as well and he was inspired by Kurosawa's samurai films.
    Both Samurai and Western Knights could have families and children.

    The Jedi were also called the Guardians of peace and justice, that job would be hard to do if you live in total isolation.
    Also, Luke's father, a Jedi, had children and nothing in ANH suggested that this was in any way abnormal or strange.
    Luke's father also seemed to want his son to follow in his footsteps and Obi-Wan wanted to honor that request.

    Second, a fairly common complaint is that some found the PT Jedi cold, uncaring, indifferent and unemotional.
    This made it hard to care about them and thus when they are wiped out, it is not very tragic.
    I know I felt this way and that I seriously doubt was the intent by Lucas.

    Third, in this thread people have questioned whether or not the PT Jedi restricted emotions and banned certain feelings.
    If the Jedi are Monks and supposed to be then the answer to that question is yes.

    @The_Phantom_Calamari
    I don't think you can compare the farm on Tatooine with modern day farms. The climate is much harsher and the planet was in some ways a lawless place.
    Luke had time off for himself, he had friends, like Biggs. He also had time to learn to be a pilot and fly around on Tatooine.
    In ANH most of those friends had left or were leaving so him wanting to go with them is pretty normal.

    First, I think you are overly harsh on Owen. Yes he makes promises to Luke that he then breaks. But he is aware of what he has done and feels some guilt over it. Beru, as you mentioned, should not be forgotten. She was a softer presence than her gruff husband. Also don't forget that Owen is trying to protect Luke. Anakin left and got himself killed, at least that is what I think Owen knows. I doubt that he knows that Anakin became Vader.
    Owen doesn't want that to happen to Luke. So he keeps Luke on Tatooine and by doing so, he thinks he is protecting Luke. Misguided and possible not effective but not entirely selfish.
    Owen also lies to Luke about his father, again the intent seemed to be to protect Luke. It is bad in some ways but no worse than the lies Obi-Wan tells Luke.

    Second, even in ANH, Luke was someone that wanted to help others. He wanted to rescue Leia, despite the risk.
    He had no love for the Empire and seemed very interested in the rebellion.
    Luke was willing and able to risk his life for others. He also joined the rebels without hesitation, even when they were about to be attacked and all destroyed. So I think both Owen and Beru has raised Luke well and made him into a caring person.

    Bye for now.
    Blackboard Monitor
     
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  23. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    If you believe the Defence Witness in Star Wars on Trial (for the charge about Star Wars ethics not being admirable), Lucas did intend it that way - that the PT Jedi be deeply flawed, their flaws contribute to their downfall, Yoda and Ben retain some of those flaws, and Luke's victory come through going against their teachings.

    Scott Lynch: The Son of Skywalker Must Not Become a Jackass (or Finding the Ethical Core of the Star Wars films by Ignoring the Ghosts and Muppets.)

    The Star Wars films establish beyond a glimmer of all possible doubt that Obi-Wan Kenobi and Yoda, wise and well-meaning as they are, are not the sorts of guys you'd want to trust with the management of your mutual fund. The venerable Jedi Masters are actually quite the pair of shifty-eyed SOBs, and the web of guilt, lies and manipulation they construct over the course of the two trilogies is epic.
    Detractors of the films (and of the personal vision of George Lucas) enthusiastically seize upon this point as though it were a revelation - as though the series' writer/creator and its fans might somehow be surprised to learn that the two older Jedi are frequently evasive, selfish, and dishonest. But while some second-guessing of Lucas's judgement in the construction of his films is justifiable. in this case it seems both uncharitable and easily refuted. Lucas clearly worries a great deal about the ethical image his characters present - in at least one instance, he worried far too much.

    (he then talks about how Han Shot First and Only, the original version, was clearly self-defence, and how the new version looks silly)

    Yet even this supremely justifiable preemptive blasting was deemed unwholesome enough to warrant a jarring change. Now, with that under his belt, does George Lucas strike you as the sort of writer/director who could plough through six films blithely unaware that two of his central characters like to fold, spindle and mutilate the truth?
    Sure Obi-Wan and Yoda are a pair of liars (and wouldn't you feel like fudging the facts a bit if the alternative was to admit that the Sith played the Jedi like a cheap trombone, and that your bad judgement helped usher in decades of bloody tyranny?). Obi-Wan and Yoda are liars because their deceptions set them up in direct opposition to Luke, for the sake of the story. Materially, the two elderly Jedi are Luke's allies. Morally, the two of them are villains - yes, villains - that Luke must confront and overcome on several occasions in order to bring about a true and lasting victory over the Sith and their Empire.
    Make no mistake: Luke's saga in the original Star Wars trilogy isn't a rediscovery of the ways of the Jedi of the Old Republic. It's the story of how he puts himself on an escape trajectory from almost everything they stood for.

    Consider the Jedi of the Republic as presented in the prequel trilogy. By and large, they're as decadent (in their own fashion) as the slowly dying government they serve. Insular, ascetic, pompous, detached, overconfident and indecisive - even the better ones display some or all of these traits at various points. Again, critics seem to seize on this as an accident - "How can we completely sympathize with this pack of arrogant space hippies?" The only reasonable response is "What makes you think you're supposed to completely sympathize with them?"

    The list of moral screwups perpetrated by the last generation of Old Republic Jedi is pretty overwhelming. Ponder:

    1: When presented with the most powerful Force-sensitive being in centuries, they decide not to guide him in any fashion. Apparently, leaving him to run around on his own (or under the tutelage of interested third parties like the Sith) is a much better idea.
    2: When presented with clear evidence that a Sith is behind the Republic-shaking events on Naboo, they dispatch the same Master/Padawan team that has already failed to beat the Sith once, with no reinforcements. Apparently, the thought of sending three dozen bright young lightsaber duelists to beat Darth Maul like a dusty carpet doesn't occur to anyone - and as a result, Qui-Gon Jinn is slain.
    3: When presented with the massive ethical quandary of a huge army of sentient beings cloned to serve as blaster fodder, the Jedi shrug their shoulders and put the poor suckers to immediate use without discussion.
    4: When they become suspicious that someone or something is manipulating Senator Palpatine, the Jedi Council continues to place the burden of spying on Anakin - a Jedi known to be insubordinate, proud and volatile, with possibly compromised loyalties. We all know what happens next.

    When Obi-Wan meets Luke Skywalker in A New Hope, he speaks wistfully of the Republic era as "a more civilized age." He neglects to mention, of course, that the tragedy of the Old Republic Jedi was at least partially self-inflicted. He begins his association with Luke not just by lying to him about his father's fate, but by attempting to inveigle him into an undeservedly charitable view of the Order that Obi-Wan accidentally helped destroy. The message is clear in the prequels and Obi-Wan only amplifies it in Episodes IV-VI: the path of the Old Republic Jedi is something Luke must shun, not celebrate.

    So much, then, for the prequel trilogy, a murky series of events in which few characters, even the survivors, manage to cover themselves in glory. The Jedi display an almost callous disregard for the emotional comfort of the boy who grows up to lead their slaughter - even Anakin's closest friend, Obi-Wan, is capable of turning a remarkably cold and dismissive shoulder toward him. Consistent ethical behaviour is nowhere to be found ... and the Galaxy suffers for it.
    By contrast, the ethical core of Episode IV-VI is almost ebullient; the unpretentious message enshrined at the heart of the original trilogy's story boils down to "stick with your friends and loved ones even when the whole universe seems to have it in for you." In A New Hope Luke rushes off alone the moment he realizes his aunt and uncle might be in danger - a foolish but highly compassionate decision. He then elects to stay with the Rebellion and participate in a suicide mission rather than escape with Han. In the end, his example inspires Han to return as well, postponing his vital reckoning with Jabba the Hutt for the sake of saving his friends and their cause.
    The displays of loyalty in The Empire Strikes Back are heartbreaking. Han risks a bitter, lonely death for a slim chance of finding Luke alive. Luke stubbornly ignores Yoda's pleas to finish his training in favor of rushing off to help his endangered friends. Lando Calrissian, in the hope of redeeming himself, gives up his entire Cloud City mining operation while trying to save Han, Leia and Chewbacca. Most strikingly, Luke chooses to fling himself to a possible death rather than accept Darth Vader's offer of a partnership to rule the Galaxy - a partnership that would surely destroy his friends and everything they've fought for as members of the Rebel Alliance.
    Luke's moral resolve is an inarticulate and even shortsighted thing, but it shows him to be ethically superior to his teachers - he will not allow his friends to suffer while he stands by and does nothing for them, and he won't even consider using them as chess pieces in some far-ranging game of Jedi against Sith in which the lives of the non-Force-sensitive do not count. The Jedi of the Old Republic discouraged the emotional connections of love and friendship; Luke is defined to his very core by those connections. The efforts of Luke's mentors to mold him in the fashion of their generation of Jedi - more ascetic, more detached - more aloof - fail continually, and while they are cranky about this failure, events prove them wrong in every respect.

    Luke, driven by compassion, holds out hope for the redemption of his father in Return of the Jedi even as a ghostly Obi-Wan grumpily continues to assert that Vader isn't worth redeeming. Kenobi seems to want Luke to atone for his mistakes in the quickest, crudest way possible - by killing Vader so Obi-Wan won't have to think about the problem anymore. Of all Obi-Wan's faults, this one seems the most petty and grievous. Even after the full revelation of every lie Obi-Wan and Yoda previously fed to Luke, Obi-Wan continues to begrudge Luke the feelings that define him: steadfast love, undying loyalty and unquenchable hope. Nowhere is the contrast between the Old Republic Jedi and Luke more apparent; never is Luke's commitment to his own ideals more critical.
    A more arrogant and detached Luke, an Old Republic-model Jedi such as Yoda and Obi-Wan might have forged out of a more complacent young Skywalker, would surely have met with disaster in his confrontation with Vader and Palpatine aboard the second Death Star. Palpatine's superiority over Luke is readily apparent; the young Jedi has no defense against the Sith Lord's dark lightning.
    Killing Vader outright or disdaining him as beyond redemption would have done no good; then Luke would have died or been suborned to the will of the Emperor in Vader's place. Struggling against Palpatine would have been to no avail, with Luke so overmatched. Only Luke's feelings for his father - his decision to spend what might be his last few breaths pleading for Vader's aid - succeed in turning Vader against the Emperor. The Sith Lord dies by his apprentice's hand, but it is Luke's love and loyalty that put that hand in motion.

    At the end of the cinematic Star Wars saga, Luke Skywalker inherits the mantle and powers of the Jedi without the hang-ups that brought the Order down at its nadir - the pompous senses of entitlement, superiority and emotional detachment that his mentors failed to kindle in him. Luke faces his destiny as the first of a new breed of Jedi - compassionate and sociable, a more faithful friend and a more honorable foe than the Knights of old. The practical moral qualities he articulates by example are immediately applicable in the real world, and worth aspiring to.
    With great power must come a certain amount of healthy self-doubt, and a certain amount of trust in the people closest to you. In embracing this, Luke's personal triumph becomes the Saga's ethical vindication.
     
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  24. Alexrd

    Alexrd Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 7, 2009
    Scolded by whom? They all speak to him in a very calm way.

    No, he explained to Anakin how his fear of losing her was related to the test/interview.

    They have trained themselves to not let emotion affect their judgement and obligations. That doesn't mean they have limited emotions of lack of understanding.

    One doesn't need to experience the love of a parent to know that (ideally) there is care and love between parents and their offspring.

    Nothing. What exactly should they do?

    They know that very well.

    No, it wouldn't help him. It would only help increase his attachment for her. Danger exists everywhere, and she could die anywhere. Anakin's problem is that he couldn't accept the fact of eventually losing any of his loved ones. That's what led to his downfall.

    He isn't off on his own, he's protecting a senator (that Obi-Wan knows he loves). It's legitimate to question why he would abandon his "dream job".

    Vader would in all likelyhood step up the torture and maybe even kill one to see if that gets a reaction. Once it becomes clear that Luke isn't coming, I think Leia and Chewie would probably die, and maybe Han as well. Vader isn't one who likes setbacks.[/quote]

    That's one possibility, assuming Lando wouldn't do nothing and they wouldn't try anything.

    We don't know that.

    Obviously. But he could have died, making his friends' sacrifice for nothing.

    At that moment, yes.

    The institution was gone, and his mother was dead. It's only natural that he goes to his immediate family on a remote planet. Remember, Jedi don't take children without the parents consent.

    He was already too old three years ago.

    The children are not theirs for them to take.

    See above.

    I don't see any.

    We don't know any of that.

    You mean the audience or in-universe?

    They are not normal humans nor do they have a normal job or belief system. In-universe, I believe the Jedi were respected for their knowledge and judgement, so much so that they serve the senate and the people it represents. In order to better serve them, they can't allow emotional attachment affect their judgement, specially given the responsibility they have.

    Mourning and grieving are selfish feelings. It's your reaction to something or someone being taken away from you, which is not compatible at all with a life of selfnessness. And there's nothing wrong with it if you're not a Jedi or have extraordinary powers.

    Really? Exceptionally, maybe.

    He's not attached to his father, at least is not in the sense the Jedi avoid. Luke's connection to his father made him feel the good left in him but that's it. He was attached to Leia however, which is why he let himself be affected by Vader's threat. The great thing about Luke is that he realized what was happening before it was too late.

    Not in TESB.

    Doesn't stop him from trying to destroy him.

    No, he realized during the flyby that his presence there has endagered the mission. Vader knows the rebels were on Endor, but he let his troops handle them.

    Except the latter was his mission and destiny. It wasn't a matter of approach, he had to go.
     
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  25. Alexrd

    Alexrd Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 7, 2009
    Sorry for the double post, but it would become too long to merge both:

    From where? And where does the idea that they've stopped seeking knowledge comes from?

    Letting Jedi be raised by families would encourage emotional attachment. The fact that Jedi understand emotional connections is what made them choose the way they follow.

    They did? Where?

    Had a better understanding and connection to what? And how does that understanding and connection is directly related to the way he was raised?

    How? I still don't see how you can make that correlation.

    If there is a direct correlation between the way Luke was raised and his will to save someone like Vader (which I'm yet trying to understand), why didn't he try to save him in TESB? Or even ANH? "There is still good in him", after all.

    Not true, otherwise he wouldn't try to reason with him on Mustafar.

    How does that even work? And what exactly is the benefit there?

    It seems pretty obvious that their friendship is more than politeness.

    That's up to them.

    Do we know that?
     
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