Lit A/V Clone Wars Continuity Discussion (Spoilers Allowed)

It is not their job to be bound by governments. The Force is not bound by states.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

And Palpatine and the Senate are still responsible for their own decisions.

Responsibility does not end with the possibility of getting caught.

When I teach my children that they are responsible for their own choices, I never even bring in the idea of being caught making bad choices, because being caught isn't the point.

Shira A'dola : The Jedi were responsible for choices that they made, but I don't view intervening in Senate matters as their responsibility.

The citizens voted those Senators into office and could vote them out in the next election.

And does anyone have an EU source indicating when the Jedi started working for the Senate? I'm not familiar with Old Republic era stuff.

 

DigitalMessiah : Right. The Jedi were responsible for the workings of their own organization and how it behaved.

They were not responsible for the corruption in the Senate. The Senate was responsible for that.

I'm not seeing why this is such a problem.

Gamiel : Thanks for that.

If they were already working for the Republic then, and the Republic did not become the way it was in TPM overnight, it seems both silly and impractical for the Jedi to suddenly say "We're not going to be part of the Republic anymore."

And even sillier to say that they are responsible for Senate behavior that they had no part of, simply because they still worked for the Senate.

 

The criminals are responsible for the crime in the city and are to be given total blame for it, regardless of what the police do, as the criminals are the ones committing the crimes.

If the police are not enforcing the law, they are held responsible for not enforcing the law, but not for the behavior of the criminals.

Regardless, the Jedi were not Palpatine's and the Senate's police force.

 

They were keepers of the peace for the Republic.

They worked for Palpatine and the Senate. I may have worded that badly; what I meant was that they were not hired to keep Palpatine and the Senate in check.

They were hired to do peacekeeping missions for the Republic; Palpatine and the Senate were their bosses.

I find it silly that the Jedi are to blame for the fall of the Republic because they did not decide that Palpatine and the Senate were not their bosses anymore, but Palpatine, who schemed to take over the Republic and murder the Jedi, bears less blame because he didn't get caught.

 

Thank you for that. So 15,000 BBY is the timeline then?

Based on that and Plagueis, it seems that the Sith in the TPM era understood that the Jedi had taken these specific precautions in order to prevent a Sith resurgence. Therefore, Palpatine and Plagueis worked around these precautions in order to take over the galaxy in a way that the Jedi would never expect.

And it worked. But while the Jedi may have had a bit too much confidence in their own precautions--both understandable given that they had worked for so long, and maybe shortsighted in that they didn't consider the idea that someone might work around them--that does not mean that the precautions themselves are to blame for the rise of the Sith.

 

The point is that the Jedi should not have been government stooges. They needed to detach themselves and solve the problem, not be tied up in minutiae.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

If they had been working for the government for 15,000 years, how would they suddenly change that?

Who would they work for? Who would fund them?

What exactly would "detaching themselves from the government" look like in practical terms?

And what would "solving the problem" look like in practical terms?

Regardless of the answer, my mind is not changed regarding the Jedi not being responsible for Palpatine and the Senate's behavior. I am mainly curious because there seem to be a lot of ideals thrown about with little to no concrete idea of how those ideals could be made to work in GFFA reality.

 

The Jedi only became part of the judiciary in 1000 BBY. Not 15000 BBY.

The Jedi had charitable donations even in 32 BBY. Luke's order was bankrolled by Lando when the GA wouldn't. They would cope.

Practically it involves the Jedi detaching themselves from the government and taking down evil when it occurs. Not turning a blind eye to social injustice when it's inconvenient. Like Luke's Order taking down slavers.

And so forth.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

A thousand years is still a long time.

And your solution is not practical. It does not explain how the Jedi would adjust so quickly to a rapid change from the way they had operated for a millennium.

You repeated your ideal instead of explaining specifically how the Jedi would make money and who they would work for. You mentioned charitable donations; were they actually getting enough to support themselves?

Also, what would a scene in which "We're not going to work for the Senate anymore" look like? How exactly would it go any better than that scene in Palpatine's office?

And how were the Jedi supposed to understand the depths of government corruption when no one else could? The Force was not nearly enough for that.

 

By watching. Everything the Jedi did was reaction, which is why it was a disaster. Galidraan, Yinchorr, Qotile, Bogden, Naboo. One disaster after another.

The Jedi coped just fine having a loose relationship with the Republic for 24000 years. They were it's guardians. Not it's footsoldiers.

They stepped in when the Tionese went on a nuclear offensive; and then meditated when the Republic went too far. They recused when the Republic turned to Pius Dea; and then took down Constipex when asked by the species of the galaxy. They stepped in when the Sith arose as it was their threat; they prepared for it when the Republic did not in 5000 BBY; sought to stay aloof from the Mandalorian Wars as a Republic issue, and so on.

They should not be beholden. They can be asked to help, sure. But not expected. Or bound to. That caused what happened.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

Sinrebirth and Starkeiller : What you all are suggesting is that the Jedi should go back to the structure that they used prior to the births of any of the Masters currently on the Council, including Yoda.

That could be considered as a possibility, I'm not sure who would have the knowledge to implement that as a solution or how the solution would be implemented. I'm not opposed to the structural reorganization in and of itself, but I think it's another topic.

If the Jedi should not be beholden to any government, go back a thousand years to see who made that decision, as opposed to blaming the current Council for it.

Regardless--blaming the Jedi for Palpatine's behavior because the Jedi did not try to revert back to the way things had been done a thousand years earlier is, again, deflecting blame off Palpatine and scapegoating the Jedi for the Republic's problems.

And holding the Jedi even somewhat responsible for Order 66 is still blaming genocide victims for their own demise. If one tried to do that with genocide victims in our world, it would not go over very well.

 

You say they can't go back, but that s exactly what they tried to in Episode III.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk