ST Lucas: Force Awakens not about Skywalker grandchildren

Umm almost all the "classics" have very high RT scores though. All 3 LOTR films are in the 90s, as well as The Dark Knight. Are those just rated highly because they're ~safe~.

 

First 60% is not that good a score as 59% or lower means gets the film a "Rotten" rating. Over 75% gives the film a "Certified Fresh" rating.
Second, the score is calculated by compiling reviews from critics on newspapers and other media and online critics. They transform the grade the critic gave to give the film a "fresh" or "rotten" score. And then they calculate the average. The people that post on the message boards and what not are not responsible for the critic score, they can give the audience score. The audience score for TPM is 60% liked it. So a majority of those that go there liked the film.

Thier method is blunt and quite crude, as was said above, Metacritic has a better system.
And I would be a bit careful by giving this undue importance.
What I think it shows is that the PT wasn't hated, far from it. The reviews weren't great either, mixed to pretty good on average with RotS a big higher up.

But back on topic.

Granted I haven't read any of the spoilers and only watched the trailers but given that it sure seemed to me that some relative of Luke is in the film. Why else have all the "The Force runs strong in my family.." bit? If he is talking to some person he isn't related to then why bring it up?

If this person is Leia's child and not Luke's, that doesn't make him/her any less of a Skywalker to me.
To argue that a familiy line can't continue by a female is a bit narrow minded.

Bye for now.
Old Soneface

 

You are correct. My apologies. I think our side conversation started that Lucas fingerprints isn't on the saga and why we think that's a good or bad thing. But we took it too far obviously.

 

We'll have to disagree.

I am looking at the audience score BTW.

Which is TPM 60%, AOTC 59%, ROTS 65%

Now compare that to the OT score ANH 96%,TESB 97% ROTJ 95%

In comparison to the deep seated hatred that was part and parcel of that forum years ago when I frequented there which flooded the core audience in the early days.

Look at TPM. You are getting people who despise them like crazy and are giving half stars or 2 or less then those who are giving it 4.

Review numbers: TPM almost 1.2M, AOTC 840,000 ROTS only less than 34,000 (so even those who despised the first two movies with glee couldn't get themselves to run it down)

 

Disagree about what? That the people that post on the message boards are not responsible for the critical Reviews?

Yes?

These scores would seem to indicate that the OT is better liked than the PT but the PT isn't hated by a majority of the people that voted on those polls.
Again of those that voted, a majority liked the films.

Some forums are overrun by trolls, I can give the Imdb boards as another example.
But the posters on the boards don't always give a good sample of all the people that vote on the site.
Again take Imdb and the third Hobbit film. The audience score is 7,5/10. About 80% of those that voted gave the film a seven out of ten or higher. And to me, 7/10 is not a bad score.
That tells me that a majority of those that voted liked the film. However if you look at the posters on the board then there are a number of very negative posters there and some trolls as well.
So based on those people alone, one would think that the film was the most hated film of all time.

[/QUOTE]

Are you referring to this number?

Then how can that mean less than 34 000? How can you have 0,448 user ratings?
Look at the number of pages with user reviews, it is over 38 000 PAGES. And there are about 20 reviews per page.

The number for AotC is;

And the number of pages with audience reviews is about 1500.
So a lot MORE people wrote reviews for RotS than for AotC. And the overall score is higher, 65%.

A small sample of quotes;

Not really seeing this endless flood of hate.

Bye for now.
Old Stoneface

 

Ok I guess I'll get sucked into another useless debate.

These days it's almost universally agreed that the intention of episode VII is to recapture the feeling of the OT. The clear implication being the PT was not as good and the hope is that we can repeat that mind blowing experience that lasted from 1977-1983. Even most fans who love the PT agree that nothing compares to that feeling of hope and innocence, etc.

The ironic part is that if and when TFA achieves this, and it definitely might based on all we've heard and seen, then it's very likely that the audience's desire for nostalgia will be satisfied, and then what?

Will everyone continue to pine for more episodes that recapture the OT? I predict no.

At that point, people will start to crave something new and different.

Forget about whether the OT is better than the PT. I think nearly everyone, both PT haters and lovers, agrees with that. Some don't, which is their right, but they are the minority. I loved all three prequels but I would rank them all behind the originals. That said, I appreciated that Lucas gave us something different, expanding and deepening the world he created.

Like everyone else I want to go back to the feeling I had as a kid. But then what? I think Lucas' mistake was never satisfying that initial craving for nostalgia. Once that happens, hopefully all you complainers will finally stop.

 

I loved the droid factory scenes, is that something else prequel haters don't like? I didn't realize that. That was one of my favorite parts of the film! As for Jar Jar, I don't hate Jar Jar, I don't like Jar Jar, he is for better or worse the comic relief (largely) in TPM. I'm actually not a Chewbacca fan, frankly, I think Chewbacca is pretty much useless and not any more of a great character than Jar Jar is. I know, that's blasphemy, but to me he's just sort of there. Same with Jar Jar. I have very little opinion about either except they are characters in the films.

The love story in AOTC gets criticism for, I think, completely incorrect reasons. If someone wants to say, "Well, I didn't buy their love story because I didn't buy that they would be into each other, and here's why: X, Y, and Z" then I would appreciate their line of criticism, at least, even if I disagree. I think it's clear Anakin was smitten with her since the first time he saw her. As for her liking him, I buy it, he's a strong-willed, fun Jedi at that point, girls like the taboo kind of thing often times (hey, I was that guy to my girlfriend, why shouldn't Anakin be to her?! LOL). Now let's go to where the criticism usually comes: the dialogue. And that's where I start to lose it and just get annoyed at rehashing this over and over again because I really feel that some people are just too dense to get it. I keep hearing, "Well Lucas just sucks at dialogue, his love story dialogue was terrible, did you really like those lines? Did you really think they were great lines from Anakin?" Umm, no, nobody thinks those are "great lines" by Anakin, not even Lucas, did you miss the point? Did you not get it? Is understanding filmmaking this difficult for people? Anakin has ZERO experience with relationships or girls. ZERO. Why WOULDN'T he be awkward, cheesy, and less than poetic in his conversations with her?! We have all been there, I was extremely awkward with my first girlfriend or any early girls, frankly. That's how it SHOULD be written! That's called good writing! BAD writing would be making the dialogue sound like Shakespeare -- that would be totally unrealistic and out of the blue. Lucas is a realistic filmmaker and his dialogue is, as such, realistic as well. It isn't an idealized world, it's an actualized world. It is what would happen if there really was a Star Wars galaxy. So, no, I had no problems with the love story, it makes perfect sense and it's well done.

Anakin's fall was amazing, I think it was handled brilliantly. I think that's the most masterful stroke in the prequel trilogy is what happens in ROTS. At each point it seems like Anakin can still turn back, and we want him to turn back (even if we know he won't). He does the right thing in reporting Palpatine, he does the right thing in not killing Palpatine right away, he is "by the book." He tells Mace he can't kill him right there, they have to bring him to trial, but Mace won't hear it and leaves Anakin little choice. Anakin, thinking about the attachments he shouldn't have (to Padme and the unborn child, since he doesn't know there are two), makes a rash decision and he can't really come back from that. The inner conflict has clearly been strong throughout. I love how that was handled.

I think Anakin and Obi-Wan's friendship is well handled but given that there is so little time, just a few movies, that's not necessarily easy to do. It's clearly expanded upon in the Clone Wars TV series, which I am fine with and I love the series. It never bothered me in the films, but it's just much richer when considering TCW.

Hmm, satisfied about not seeing much of the Clone Wars in the films. I wouldn't say I was dissatisfied only because I never had the opportunity -- I was too busy loving what was shown. It makes sense that you have to maintain a clear focus and The Clone Wars as a whole are best shown in something where you have lots and lots of time, like the TV series, and it's so much fun to watch it unfold in that 40+ hour time span. It's amazing. I'm sure part of me wanted to see more Clone Wars when I first thought about the prequels, but would that have made the films better? I don't think so. I don't know what you would have sacrificed instead of that, unless you were to expand the films from 3 to 4 or 5 or something like that. *shrug*

 

Again, I don't get why this is assumed. I don't assume that. Many people I know prefer the prequels to the OT. I have no preference but I think the PT is a more sophisticated storyline than the OT and more complicated, adult films. The OT is easier to understand for kids - very black and white, good versus evil, which is awesome, and I love it, but I like the complexity present in the prequels where more is going on behind the scenes.

 

The PT didn't change the way movies were made? How do you figure? The PT changed the way movies were made just as much as the OT! The Phantom Menace had the most visual effects shots ever put into a movie. As John Knoll went over in his panel at Star Wars Celebration, it was unprecedented at the time and now 5-6 movies per year have that many effects shots. The PT paved the way for that level of technical sophistication. AOTC was the first major film ever shot entirely digitally and now almost every movie is shot that way. The prequel trilogy pushed the boundaries of filmmaking at least as much as the OT. I would argue A New Hope pushed the bounds the most of every Star Wars movie, but ESB and ROTJ were not light years ahead and didn't advance filmmaking technology as much as AOTC and ROTS did, so as a trilogy versus trilogy comparison, it's about even.

That's your right to say the PT didn't do it for you, but to say it didn't present anything new is wrong. It was invigorating for very many of us, millions and millions of fans who loved the films and went back time and time again to see them. There isn't a sea of disappointment and dislike whatsoever. Maybe that's what the media would love to have you believe, but the vast majority of people really enjoyed the prequels and that was obvious in every movie theater across the country. I saw The Phantom Menace 50 times in theaters and I can count on one hand the number of times it didn't get applause. Even 8 weeks later, audiences were STILL applauding as the end credits ran. I couldn't believe it. Even I thought that was unusual and I'm a big fan. It always put a smile on my face. The same was true of the other prequels. And yet the media spins this yarn that nobody liked "the prequels," despite the fact that almost every fan considered ROTS the perfect Star Wars movie when it came out. I feel like some of the fans have actually forgotten that they walked out of the theater raving about how great the movie was, and then suddenly they're like, "Oh yeah the prequels weren't very good," as they haven't even seen them in years. There wasn't anyone I knew who complained about ROTS. I knew about 30 people in my class in high school who had seen TPM and we discussed it and 2 of them didn't like it, one thought it sucked, the other she just thought it was disappointing. The other 28 all really liked it or loved it. Then suddenly I hear years later, "EVERYONE hated The Phantom Menace. It was the worst movie ever made. It was horribly disappointing." Where are all of these people?! It makes no sense. Suddenly they crawl out of the woodwork asserting they are the majority, but they are not. It's really not hard to see the facts and statistics on this, either. In every poll conducted that year, TPM got As, great ratings, best movie of the year rankings, etc.

You can say "That's a fact" all you want, but it's not a fact, it's actually a FACT that the prequel trilogy performed amazingly well and did capture the public attention, imagination, and admiration just like the OT did.

 

It's these conversations that lead me to believe I'm inhabiting a different planet to many of you. I will reiterate that I enjoyed the PT (though I find AOTC increasingly hard to watch) but not once have I met a PT fan in the wild. Nor did I ever witness the same heady SW fervor in the last 15 years that I did during the OT. I know people in the generation targeted by the PT, and none of them seem touched by it.

Seriously, I feel like I fell into a parallel universe. My experiences and thoughts very closely match those of DarthLightlyBruise.

 

Definitely what I'd consider safe movies. They don't hold up that well on repeated viewings.

 

Same with Blue Velvet--a safe crowdpleaser with a predictably high score of 93%.

 

Old movies are tainted by their consequent classic reputations. On release there was definitely not a 93% score.

 

Isn't that relevant when discussing the OT and PT as well?

 

Preconceived notions taint all reviews. Old films considered classics will always get the benefit of the doubt. Even "bad" classics where the viewer doesn't necessarily love the film, but feel the need to approve since everybody else does. That's a completely normal reaction.

It just depends on what those preconceived notions are.

 

Movie critics are so self important. I am astonished time and time again at their awful, awful taste, lack of culture and overrating of bland and even offensively idiotic movies. I will be skipping all the Episode VII reviews and just watching the movie.

I suppose I should say something about the topic. Having read some scene synopses, it seems like Han doesn't know Rey, which means.... No grandchildren? And if they somehow "lost" their kids, then... really? Han and Leia lost their kids? Seems unlikely. They would be very protective, attentive parents who would kill anyone who got near their kids, not total failures. And if Luke is the dad, why is he such a jackass to just go guard a tomb for years? These are the mystery box questions I'll see the movie for. Hopefully there will be answers.

 

Yeah.. cause there was no internet lol.

Also 90s scores: There Will Be Blood, Amour, Zero Dark Thirty. They're just SO safe.

 

But here's the point: the PT (well, TPM and AOTC at least) never gained the cultural acceptance that would have bumped their scores upwards in the way you're talking about. In other words, they are not perceived as "classics" in the way the OT is.

 

It depends on the generation who grew up with it to see its cultural impact and acceptance. Let's not forget that the original SW movies have a fair amount of critics who treated them like inferior kiddy movies as well back in the 70s and 80s.

 

This really is a myth. There was what, Pauline Kael, John Simon and...? OTOH, the negative response to the PT had a very different tone, one that was more dismayed than anything, mainly by the acting, dialogue and lack of fun--it wasn't criticised for what it was so much as how it was failing at its own goals.

 

That's a little early to say. From where I'm looking the love for the PT is trending upwards. Not only because of kids loving it growing up, but also older fans coming around. I myself was influenced by the hate brigade for some time. I enjoyed the movies but of course noticed the flaws. It is only now I have come to a point where I enjoy all the movies equally, because I do and always did. The OT has flaws too, doesn't mean all that much as long as the overall package is good. But you are supposed to hate the PT, and even if you enjoy it many people will still give it thumbs down.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that scores and reviews need context. Some movies are more likely to reach high scores while others low, regardless of the quality. Because of things like expectations, hype, complexity etc. The disappointment for the PT among many fans is a reason I think the ST will at first get inflated scores.

 

I do agree. I also think that AOTC's score is actually inflated for the same reason--it had a wave of "Well, at least it's not TPM" in initial reviews. I personally think time has been kinder to TPM than AOTC. ROTS has remained pretty stable, however.

That said, I'm hoping that TFA will merit a score at least in the high 80s, and the PT backlash will simply push its reception into the stratosphere.

Regarding reassessment of the PT, I suspect that the "PT generation" (i.e. kids who were impacted primarily by the PT) just isn't as sizable as the OT generation, so it'll never reach those same heights, just because of the numbers. Harry Potter is that generation's Star Wars.

 

Difference is I don't think HP will remain as popular when the fans grow up. It's too child oriented. SW fans on the other hand are much more likely to take it with them into adulthood. It won't be as sizable, but it doesn't need to be. As the old timers "die off" the only people left to determine a score will be people with far less bias against either of the trilogies. Of course this is just my personal opinion, but I think the level of quality is too high to be suppressed by a hate psychosis forever. Most of the haters haven't even watched the movies more than once. It's only the cultural phenomenon keeping it going. Once the necessary distance is achieved we should start to see a shift. Possibly already with the ST if they bungle it.

 

Any trend in opinion can change obviously. But after 10-15 years now, I honestly have not seen any change in how the PT is generally viewed. For SW fans, they're still polarizing as ever. For regular audiences, they really haven't gotten into the cultural psyche to the same degree as other films of the same era as the PT. It really got overshadowed by HP, LOTR and Pirates of the Caribbean even.

Harry Potter has not diminished at all for my gen, btw. The film/book series is over, but it's so ingrained in our pop culture consciousness. Almost anyone you talk to in their 20s now knows who Hagrid, Snape, Dobby, etc are.

 

This topic is not about the skywalker grandchildren.....this is a rehash of old old old arguments.
as for critics, think for yourself and enjoy the moment and ignore their psychobabble.

I expect the skywalker\solo family in this film. its obvious, expected, and normal.