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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

A/V THE FORCE AWAKENS - The Official Movie Discussion Thread

Discussion in 'Literature' started by AdmiralNick22 , Dec 15, 2015.

  1. Qel

    Qel Jedi Master star 2

    Registered:
    Jan 8, 2007
    Really find it curious when people in general say we don't need Sith Lords all the time yet more Jedi are fine it seems. They're two of the constants in the story, do you really want one without the other? Personally I hope Snoke isn't someone entirely new as I feel the idea of someone else entirely unconnected yet as or more powerful than Palpatine would devalue Palpatine as a character more than Snoke just turning out to be Plagueis. I say that because he was clearly powerful (his former master) and Palpatine clearly thought he'd killed him, but if he hadn't either due to screwing up or some use of the force by Plagueis, then it wouldn't be the first time Palpatine's overconfidence had come back to bite him. But the idea of something else just hovering in the background the entire time just doesn't work for me.
     
  2. Ulicus

    Ulicus Lapsed Moderator star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jul 24, 2005
    I'm saying that if you do, don't do it in a superficial manner just to pay lip service to the idea that things are new, and fresh and different even though they're essentially identical.
     
  3. Charlemagne19

    Charlemagne19 Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Jul 30, 2000
    *ahem* Inquisition *ahem* Nightsisters. It's not like non-Sith dark siders aren't a thing now.

    The Sith were constants in the Old Star Wars universe. In the new Star Wars universe, they might not be. I also felt the concept of the Sith was undervalued by making it just another name for Dark Jedi. The new universe has the opportunity to explore different varieties of evil and concepts related to control, the Dark Side, chaos, and order.

    In short, the Banite Sith can be Satanic evil of a level terrifying as Darth Nihilus and Darth Bane.

    While the Knights of Ren could be "bread and circuses" conquerors.

    Have some fun with it.

    I also would love to see some variants on the Jedi. We've already got force-sensitive bar tender Yoda.
     
  4. darklordoftech

    darklordoftech Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Sep 30, 2012
    I'd prefer Bane or Ruin over Plagueis.
     
  5. Qel

    Qel Jedi Master star 2

    Registered:
    Jan 8, 2007
    I said they're two OF the constants, not the only two, but Jedi and Sith have been tied into this fight together for so long to have it end with one side 'winning' only to be swiftly wiped out by Han's son so everyone loses seems a bit disappointing.... As for the Knights of Ren, your idea might work were it not for Kylo's obsession with his grandfather as with that if he isn't Sith already then he's clearly wanting to be one in all but name.
     
  6. Ulicus

    Ulicus Lapsed Moderator star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jul 24, 2005
    I could see the value in keeping the Sith dead if the ST were invested in the Force being in balance following RotJ, but the first exchange of the film seemed to put that to bed. And, if we're gonna have an old disfigured dude in dark robes calling the shots and lording it over a Skywalker, again, I'd rather he were the guy whose existence was disclosed in the earlier episodes of the saga and may have been involved in the creation of the line. Because it helps keep the saga feeling like one saga, with an overarching metaplot.

    If TFA had been "STAR WARS - CHRONICLE II - EPISODE IV - THE FORCE AWAKENS" then maybe I'd have felt differently.

    My next preference is the wizard of Oz thing.
     
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  7. Dawud786

    Dawud786 Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Dec 28, 2006
    The Sith were born from the Jedi in Canon, and not some ancient species from which a faction of Dark Jedi took their name. The idea being that with the deaths of Sidious and Vader that was the end of them.

    I would be more interested in Snoke being more akin to Cronal. A whole different take on the dark side than the Sith. I think he clearly has an ideological bent that he's passed on to the First Orser, Kylo and the Knights of Ren.

    For instance, I am not at all convinced that Kylo chose to be EVIL. I think he actually believes the dark side is good. Not just that it gives him greater power and is good for him, but that it is goodness. Good for the galaxy and good for rule. That the order that comes through the rule of the dark side is better, and does better for the galaxy than democracy, the light side and the Jedi. He finds the light tempting because of a personal moral failing, and that going to the light would be evil.

    This might be why we don't see Palpatine looming over the First Order, because Snoke has gone further in creating his dark side cult than Palpatine ever did. Palpatine was willing to promote disbelief in the Force amongst his infrastructure, keeping the dark side cult for the Sith, the Inquisitors and a select group of purple robed cultists.

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  8. LelalMekha

    LelalMekha Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Oct 29, 2012
    Yes, but fromp a strictly iconic POV, the absence of a cult of personality seems weird. The FO claims to be the descendant of the "Old Empire" anw wants to recreate it. Why don't they ever refer to the man they should see as the "Father of the Fatherland?"
     
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  9. Dawud786

    Dawud786 Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Dec 28, 2006
    The same reason so few Imperial Warlords didn't seem to refer back to Palpatine much? The same reason the Fel Empire didn't refer back to him, despite using the trappings of his Empire?

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  10. Tzizvvt78

    Tzizvvt78 Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jun 12, 2009
    There are other ways to see a leader. Like a spiritual guru, for instance. They can't use the Emperor as an ideal anymore, it seems. The First Order is probably viewed more as a spiritual successor to an idealized Jedi Order, i.e. warrior monks, but ones that will bring about "true" order and not the chaos of the Republic that the Jedi supported. Snoke is their spiritual leader, not an Emperor who runs things practically.

    I have a feeling if the FO succeeds, Snoke will "reluctantly" take up position as Emperor or something similar, if offered. It would be a good parallel to the Prequels and a good parallel to the political manoeuvring of the Roman Empire.
     
  11. blackmyron

    blackmyron Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Oct 29, 2005
    They are just Sith rehashes. With a Rule of Seven, or something.
     
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  12. Ulicus

    Ulicus Lapsed Moderator star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jul 24, 2005
    I'd enjoy that, too . . . but I don't understand why you can't have your cake and I can't eat it, too. Finding out that Snoke used to go by "Darth Plagueis" wouldn't detract from any of the above, at all, and then I get my metaplot. :p
     
  13. LelalMekha

    LelalMekha Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Oct 29, 2012
    I never said it made more sense with the EU remnants. :p ;) With the difference, however, that EU warlords never hid their ambitions to take the power for themselves. The FO, on the contrary, seems to emphasize ideology more than a quest to personal power.
     
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  14. Dawud786

    Dawud786 Chosen One star 5

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    Dec 28, 2006
    What better way to attain personal power than brainwash people with ideology?

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  15. DarthPhilosopher

    DarthPhilosopher Chosen One star 6

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    Jan 23, 2011
    No it doesn't.
     
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  16. Ulicus

    Ulicus Lapsed Moderator star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jul 24, 2005
    "Without the Jedi there can be no balance in the Force" seems to imply the Force is out of balance, does it not? Am I misremembering? It's more than possible.
     
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  17. Dawud786

    Dawud786 Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Dec 28, 2006
    What would an apparent muggle who worships the Force know about its balance, though? We have no reason to believe Lor San Tekka is Force-sensitive. All we know is he follows the Church of the Force religion.

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  18. DarthPhilosopher

    DarthPhilosopher Chosen One star 6

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    Jan 23, 2011
    I read it as, if Luke isn't found the Jedi will inevitably disappear with his death and balance will be destroyed. I could be misinterpreting it on my part however.
     
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  19. Ulicus

    Ulicus Lapsed Moderator star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jul 24, 2005
    I guess it could be a deliberate red herring that they'll dismiss early into Episode VIII, but I'm more inclined to believe that it's a normal example of exposition. Considering Tekka's close ties to Skywalker, it's not exactly implausible that he was taken to one side and told "Dude, Force is totally out of wack, again, I need to go find the First Jedi Temple and see what's what"


    EDIT:
    That's a fair enough reading, I suppose. I guess we'll see.

    Though it feels like a weird thing for them to have brought up at all unless their intention was to telegraph that the Force was out of balance. (Either again, or having never been properly restored)
     
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  20. darklordoftech

    darklordoftech Force Ghost star 6

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    Sep 30, 2012
    You mean Darth Ruin?
     
  21. Lugija

    Lugija Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 3, 2009
    I read "without the Jedi the Force can't be in balance" as "thanks to Luke and Anakin it has started to heal but if Luke can't get a new Order started the wound in the Force or whatever won't go away as the dark side can't be completely kept in check just by muggles".

    I liked it because it connected the stakes more with the overall saga.
     
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  22. CooperTFN

    CooperTFN TFN EU Staff Emeritus star 7 VIP

    Registered:
    Jul 8, 1999
    You're guessing. We don't even know if any of them beyond Kylo are sensitive.

    ...as opposed to Kylo himself, who's overly sensitive. :p
     
  23. DelRiego

    DelRiego Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 12, 2002
    I watched it again and it occurred to me that, Rey could be...

    Related to Ezra or Kanan?

    Yeah, it's the slimmest possibility ever, she's probably a Skywalker or Kenobi but:

    - She mentions her 'family'; not her mom or dad. The only family we are acquainted with is the Ghost crew
    - Maz mentions they'll never come back. Since we've been reassured Luke is the last Jedi, Kanan or Ezra are most likely... unable to return.
    - We've seen Poe's folks, Zare and Merei could be Finn's; why not reveal Rebels is s TFA prequel.

    That or she is space Matilda and her mediocre parents just gave her away to mr. blobfish.
     
  24. Charlemagne19

    Charlemagne19 Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Jul 30, 2000
    Given they killed a hundred or so Jedi, I'm pretty sure they're Force Sensitive.
     
  25. GrandAdmiralJello

    GrandAdmiralJello Comms Admin ❉ Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque star 10 Staff Member Administrator

    Registered:
    Nov 28, 2000
    lol Ghost, you post the EW picture without quoting the part in the article where they emphatically say NO HE'S NOT PLAGUEIS JUST STOP ALREADY ? :p