A/V THE FORCE AWAKENS - The Official Movie Discussion Thread

1) he didn't get what he needed... which is basically the plot of the movie... him Hunting down Rey/Finn/Droid for the map

and 2) then after siphoning the information from Poe's mind, why not kill him?

(and before you say leverage/ransom/negotiating with resistance, same could be said of Lor San.. a high figure in the church of the force, I'm sure he would have value in future dealings, especially since Lor alluded to the fact he knew Kylo's family)

 

The suit does help with that, you know.

AotC!Anakin =/= Kylo

I very much doubt that AotC!Anakin could have tanked the bowcaster shot at all. He collapsed in a heap when he was grievously injured by Dooku. Even ANH!Luke could beat a heap.

TFA Rey =/= ANH Luke in terms of combat skillset.

Putting aside the "forgotten training" hypothesises, she's still grown up Lara Crofting across a Mad Max wasteland beating people up with a quarterstaff. She'd kick ANH!Luke's ass even without a lightsaber.

"[Leia's] resistance to the mind probe is considerable, it will be some time before we can extract the information from her" - Darth Vader

But, even putting that aside, less raw power than Rey =/= Weak/Mediocre as far as Force users go

Yes!!!

Of course we do! Holy crap. Were Palpatine, Yoda, Mace, Obi-Wan and Dooku "weak and/or mediocre" because they didn't possess the same raw talent as Anakin?

 

The suit helps his lungs, hand grip and his ability to walk, the suit doesn't help him use the force.

I meant if AOTC Anakin had the injuries Kylo sustained, not the ones from Dooku. And by saying Anakin couldnt have taken that bowcaster shot you're being contradictory. Unless you are now claiming Kylo is stronger than Anakin? (who later on in your past claimed was stronger than Palpatine, Mace, Yoda, Obi-wan, and Dooku)..

She has no combat skillset.. lol this isnt a video game...

Well putting aside the NU novels and the children's books (like "before the awakening" for ages 8)...The film doesn't depict anything like a Mad Max scenario. More like a lonely girl abandoned on a scarcely populated planet, scavenging empty Star destroyer wrecks.. She does get into fights, but with very short statured aliens. Yea if you add novels and such she saw a lot more action, but the same goes for Luke... add the novels/EU and Luke's upbringing was not so easy either.... Speeder gangs, Krayt Dragons, Tuskans, Sandstorms, oversized Womp Rats... etc..

And no, Rey wouldn't Kick ANH Luke's ass...

less power than a young UNTRAINED Rey.. the powers of the force user grow with training... He might not have the raw potential Rey had, (which already signals him to be an inferior in the film) but, having been trained by Snoke, and being in a commanding position with the First Order, interogating many people... he should have the force ability to subdue Rey rather easily when invading her mind... if in fact he was "powerful" that is....

and the whole Mind siphoning thing wasnt a mistake or bad writing.. it was put into the film for a reason.. to show us.. Kylo isn't all that.. and Rey is the "real deal"

An untrained Anakin didn't defeat Yoda, Mace, Obi-wan, Dooku...so no I wouldnt call them mediocre...

but if Anakin straight off tatooine picked a fight with Mace Windu and managed to not only survive, but knock him down for a moment putting him at his mercy.. I would consider Mace Windu to be "mediocre" ...

And I never considered Dooku to be all that powerful compared to other Master Jedi or Sith... just entitled by way of birthright and position.. he was also a master tactician/planner..

 

He killed Lor San Tekka because he feared the pop-cultural power wielded by Max von Sydows, if he did not slay him then, he would not get another chance.

 

LOL

if you watch Exorcist (Made in 1973) Max Von Sydow played a priest in his 80s... (he was actually only around 40 at the time)....

then Watch TFA and Max Von Sydow playing his real age (80s) looks and acts the same way he "acted" an 80 year old to be in Exorcist...

that is friggin amazing acting... many people when first watching exorcist don't even realize Max is playing someone 45 years older than his actual age

 

In a "fair" fight between TFA Rey and ANH Luke, I'd make Rey the favorite.

Rey has at least some experience in melee combat, and can be vicious. See the way she charged Finn, baring her teeth like a psycho? She's got a violent streak in her.

Luke didn't handle the Tuskens well. He didn't handle himself well in the Mos Eisley cantina. He gets bullied. He's out of his element, he's a fresh fish, he's weak, he's soft, and everyone can see it. He's an easy meal without Kenobi.

Rey handles that element with more confidence and strength.

Yes, Rey would kick Luke's ass. She has a ferocity Luke doesn't, because she was all alone and had to fend for herself to survive, while Luke had a much greater support system; an aunt and uncle, friends, a more stable and less vicious form of employment, greater material support, etc. Luke's way of life is "soft" in comparison to Rey's. (though I think such comparisons are in bad taste)

Rey just seems more like a hardened survivor, and Luke comes off as a bit of a nice guy. He's more innocent and naive. Yes, yes, he shoots people on the Death Star, because it's a movie. But his character is that of a nice farmboy. Rey's a scavenger, a survivor.

 

The suit means he doesn't have to focus willpower/energies on keeping himself alive. The point is that Vader's injuries are, essentially, a non-factor unless you're talking about the torso crawling around on the banks of Mustafar. And you were not.

Yes, of course. And I was drawing attention to the fact that a bowcaster shot to the gut is considerably more damaging than a cleanly severed arm at the elbow. Kylo probably should have exploded into ludicrous gibs. That he's capable of putting up any kind of fight is a testament to his strength.

I get that you don't think Kylo's wounds are significant, but you are entirely wrong. It's not debatable. Why did the filmmakers emphasise how potent the bowcaster was on numerous occasions? Why did they choose to have Kylo wounded by a projectile weapon after establishing in the opening scene that he can't be taken by surprise by that kind of attack? Why did they begin the duel with a close up of his blood on the snow?

Everything about the lead in to Kylo's battle with Rey and Finn is meant to establish that he is entirely off his game and he's fighting with a severe handicap.

I would argue that Kylo Ren is likely stronger than Anakin was in Attack of the Clones, for sure. I don't think he necessarily possesses the same raw talent. He might. Too early to say.

People having different skill sets is a part of life, not video games.

Considering what we know of their respective childhoods, and what we see on screen, it stands to reason that Rey is better in a brawl than Luke.

Finn would probably beat ANH!Luke in a lightsaber duel, too.

This is the Literature forum. If you want to argue or dismiss the canon . . . well, you can't. It's against our forum rules.

If you just want to debate the film/s without taking the supplementary material into account, you can do so here.

Power and skill are distinct. A Force user's power is, generally, implied to be pretty much constant throughout their life. What changes is the extent to which it can be actualised.

The scene in question highlights that Rey has a much greater strength of will than Kylo anticipates and that she's an incredibly adept mimic. It's also meant to dispel Kylo's aura of invincibility, certainly, but it's not meant to transform him into a chump weakling any more than Vader's inability to probe Leia's mind transformed him into a chump weakling.

 

from http://blazbaros.deviantart.com/

 

I'm sorry, but I believe it is debatable, and has been debated by many fans...Here is a photo of the shot hitting Kylo...



As you can see, it seems to have hit in him in the inquinal or vasio area of his body...Many soldiers (IRL) have been shot through this area with large caliber bullets and were still mobile enough to make it to medevacs and in extreme cases continue to fight. It could be as serious as a Kidney wound, yes, but this is also a force user, and from the photo it actually looks like it refracted somewhat (or in the least diffracted) on his belt or some device on his belt, or perhaps a composite undergarment (armor)

distance could have played a role (if plasma based (which older blasters are and the bowcaster is an older weapon) loses terminal power as distance increases), angle of impact, what type of armor/covering kylo has under his cloak..lot of variables..

so yes.. I do think the severity of the wound debatable... also... Chewy might (I think he does) know Kylo is Han's Son.. maybe he didnt seek to kill him/hurt him too badly... set the blaster to a lower power maybe?... the blaster bolt itself doesnt seem as large as the others from the bowcaster (could be my imagination, one would have to screen shot and compare).. or purposefully chose not to mortally wound Kylo, only hurting him

I agree hes emotional from his confrontation with Han, and he was in fact injured by Chewy and Finn, but I disagree with "completely off his game"

and regardless .. we can go back to the scene with him and Rey and the mind reading failure of his, and also even the fact that he could not summon the lightsaber from the snow, when Rey does, losing to her in yet another battle of wills...

In fact to uphold the theory of Kylo being powerful, once has to completely dismiss a canon scene of the FILM (films supercede all other canon)...where Rey so easily violates his mind striking at his fears...

I think this is another contradiction in your analysis.. you indirectly allude to your belief that Kylo's training shouldnt be thrown into the equation when judging Kylo's failure in telepathy and in his confrontation with Rey, but then believe, although Anakin has more potential than Kylo, that Kylo can still defeat him because he is better trained?

But I will say this... Kylo does not possess the same raw talent as Anakin, and I don't think he could withstand Dooku's attack any better (or even as good) as Anakin in AOTC... watching the Saber duels in AOTC... nothing from TFA comes even close to that level of skill... Nothing Kylo does even remotely approaches the level of Saber skill of the jedi in AOTC or even Anakin as a padawan in AOTC

I also feel, that to truly understand Kylo's character, you have to understand he is not, and can never be, as powerful as Anakin. Which again is why Rey rattles him so with her sensed observation...

this reality, Kylo's inability to measure up to Vader and Luke, is what prompted the entire "Vader pretender" theme or the Vader pretense surrounding him

Combat skill sets are something you have to go to basic training and then, after a graduation and a family visit, advanced training to acquire.. I meant this isnt a video game in the respect that people arent born with "combat skill sets", like say, and avatar in an MMO is...but this is a silly thing to debate...

I thought when you "dismissed the forgotten training theory" I misread that and thought you were dismissing some NU fiction I had failed to read/hear about...so I also "put aside" literature for that moment..

although I'm still shady on what is "new canon" and not... And am unfamiliar with some of the NU novels..I did make reference to the supplementary material I was aware of...I know previous to TFA and Disney "erasing" everything... I know a lot of stories showing Luke had quite a substantional history.. and his life on tatooine was not easy.. and I am sure in time things will be "recanonized" (if they arent already canon) and new stories written once again detailing Luke's Hardships..

For me to reiterate my points further at this point would be beating a dead horse...so I'm moving on

 

Rey was not simply a great Force User, who can do mind tricks and who out force grabs Kylo for the Lightsaber, but she is also an Ace pilot and Mechanic as well. In other words she was a Mary Sue

 

She's a mechanic because she's grown up around technology since she was five years old and she's a pilot because one particular piece of technology was a working flight simulator. So there are reasons behind her abilities, so it's not that she's a Mary Sue. She'd be a Mary Sue if she had all these talents and there was no reasonable explanation for it, i.e. she'd grown up sheltered and never worked a day in her life, or had lived on a planet devoid of technology. As is, with the background that she had established, it makes sense.

 

That's not actually what a Mary Sue is.

Mary Sue doesn't mean "competent character".

The "great Force user" is debatable too. She is being torture by a Force acolyte who has never tried to probe another Force user who also probably hasn't been trained to be mindful of his own thoughts and the scene implies she sees through the window he opened between them because he's not expecting it.

The lightsaber battle is someone who is picked by the Force and given a boost of what's debatably of the darker side since she's seething with anger when she attacks him. We've seen these sorts of things before in SW lore.

The bolt caster doesn't just carry the blast, it carries tremendous kinetic impact behind it, as shown in several scenes, and the fact that Kylo remains standing and intact is impressive. He then draws on that pain to remain standing and combat ready against someone who has spent their life using melee weapons as an outlaw scavenger on an outlaw planet.

 

Also Luke was whiny and confused all the time whereas Rey was bright-eyed and awed with basically everything she experienced.

(Note: Luke Skywalker is my favorite Star Wars character so don't attack me.)

 

Interesting.

We actually have an answer to this in canon, from the TFA jr novelization. In the book, we see Chewie after he set off the explosives, in a rage and killing every First Order member he comes across, literally clawing one to death:

So, yes Chewie knew that Kylo was Han's son, and no, he tried to kill him with that shot.

Oh, good grief. Do we have to bring this up again?

Every variation of the "Rey is a Mary Sue" argument needs to ignore parts of the movie to work (and in some cases, basic facts about the Star Wars universe), not to mention that everything in the movie is supported and expanded on elsewhere in the canon. This myth was busted before it even left the gate.

 

I know what a Sue is, To use the definition "A Mary Sue is an idealized and seemingly perfect fictional character, a young or low-rank person who saves the day through unrealistic abilities. Often this character is recognized as an author insert or wish-fulfilment."
Certainly the first sentence fits Rey to a T you can't deny that

 

WebLurker -- EDIT: Actually, nevermind. I misread you. False alarm!

 

How are we debating the severity of the bowcaster wound when a large portion of the second and third act's set pieces are dedicated to showing how powerful it is? And... that we get a close up of the blood, and that he keeps punching the wound - this is pretty basic film language.

 

We share a reality with flat Earthers, to be fair. Dismissing the bowcaster wound as a scratch we're not meant to take seriously in the face of obvious film language doesn't really compare.

That's how. It's borderline impressive, actually.

 

Kylo being perceived as weak because he got defeated by Rey was no so much an issue with the information provided by the movie, but a problem with the execution. I also had completely forgotten that he was injured by the time he faced Rey. He wasn’t limping around and he displayed full range of motion and good fighting ability when he manhandled Finn and almost manhandled Rey, and his ability to use the Force did not seem to have been diminished. It’s like the movie itself forgot that he was injured for a moment – until it was convenient for when it came to Rey overpowering him with the Force and with the lightsaber.

It also did not help that Rey’s hero journey was confusing at best. If I understood it correctly, her character journey was supposed to be of a lone girl who at first rejected her destiny until later she accepts it. Rey using the Force in the last arc against Kylo should have been perceived as "finally she is accepting her destiny as a hero and OMG she beat the crap out of that a-hole!", like a hero miraculously succeeding by believing in the impossible. Except that she had used the Force before, and all the other times she used the Force, she had succeeded with no setbacks. She had already defeated Kylo Ren with the Force when she was supposedly still running away from her destiny, at the interrogation room. So when it came the moment when Rey had to use the Force for the third time (and succeed for the third time) the "WOW!" moment was gone, and her victory did not feel earned because there were never stakes involved with her in the first place. Which ended up reflecting negatively on Kylo Ren’s ability with the Force, when it shouldn’t have to be that way.


The same goes for the complaints about Rey being a Mary Sue, or more precisely, being a character seemingly too perfect with no flaws. This guy wrote an extensive article about the some of the issues with Rey’s characterization and I fully agree with him, especially this part:

Her skills and sudden mastery with everything she attempts are another issue with the execution. It's what is omitted from the movie – and should have been there – that is the problem. She is a scavenger who needs to fend for herself to survive. Okay. But so are the jawas, and nobody looks at jawas and thinks they must also be great at martial arts, piloting, mechanics and alien languages. There is no direct correlation between being an isolated, malnourished scavenger and being hypercompetent at other areas. One would think that if you had all those skills, you shouldn't need to resort to scavenge for food. Rey could have had a better job that gave her a better income, it's not like she had a slave chip in her head that prevented her from pursuing a more comfortable life. She could have been a pilot, a mechanic, a body guard, a translator, anything. So why wasn't she? Is it because there were no other jobs available at Jakku? I don't know. How does a poor scavenger excels at so many things? I don't know. It is probably being explained in tie-in material, but that should have been in the movie. We could have had just some lines from Rey saying she helped Unkar Plutt make repairs in the Falcon and she piloted it before, for instance. But the movie kept shying way from telling us anything about Rey other than that she was a lonely scavenger waiting for her family with badass skills and awesome powers, and for many people that is not enough to make a believable character.

We knew Luke was a pilot because his piloting skills were brought up at least three times in the movie before he piloted a ship. And we knew he could do great things with the Force because we saw him being trained by Obi-Wan. Anakin’s hypercompetence in the PT was only jarring because of his extremely young age, but otherwise the movie explained why he was a mechanic, a pilot and why he knew Huttese.
Rey didn’t get any of this – not even with her Force abilities, since she also (as we know so far) didn’t get any training. So whenever she did something - and excelled at it - it often looked like it came out of the blue. I don’t know if this was an unfortunate result of her being mystery boxed or the writers were afraid the audiences would get bored if they did some exposition or showed her having a bit of training. But lack of explanation only did a disservice to a character that had every reason to be great. She is the first female main protagonist in a Star Wars movie, and as a female, I should have been ecstatic about her character. But I’m not. I found her characterization severely lacking, her hero journey confusing and her character difficult to relate to.


That being said, I am still looking forward to what Rian Johnson is going to do. Even though I did not enjoy Rey’s character in TFA, a good writer can still make it work for me and I’m pretty forgiving I also did not like Anakin in the PT but I loved him in TCW, so now I like his character overall. I also expect Kylo’s motivations to be explored in VIII because even though I enjoyed his character in TFA, I agree with the criticism about a good guy wanting to be evil because it’s cool does not make any sense.

Captain Phasma however is probably forever ruined for me. It’s not that she didn’t do anything in the movie, it’s that the only time she did something was to show how much of a pathetic coward she is. It’s gonna be difficult for me to get over it.

 

Well, "it should have been in the movie" is the answer to many of TFA's problems, IMHO.

 

Unless it's Darth Plagueis.

 

True, true. I remember being pretty pleased about that.