A/V THE FORCE AWAKENS - The Official Movie Discussion Thread

Short of, "Guys, Snoke was messing with my mind, it was like when Exar Kun had Kyp in thrall!" I don't see Kylo having any kind of redemption arc that doesn't end with his death.

She already had her Dagobah cave experience.

I mean, she can always have another one . . . but it's not like it's still on the the tick list.

 

No, he'll have a Ulic redemption and have to spend the rest of his days writing emo poetry.

 

Urgh. Fine.

"Guys, Snoke poisoned me with evil juice, like the Krath did with Ulic!"
Same difference.

 

Just as long as he's sad afterward.

 

Very much so. I'm not sure Kylo's going to get redemption period (I hope not, since I think it would be more interesting if he doesn't).

She already had her Dagobah cave experience.

I mean, she can always have another one . . . but it's not like it's still on the the tick list.[/quote]

Which was her cave experience?

Now, I don't want Rey to go bad, but I wouldn't mind if the sequels put her through the wringer a bit and have her struggling a bit with her ethics and morals. Just no turning evil and no limbs getting chopped off (also, let all the heroes live, please).

 

Rey's descent into the depths of Maz's castle and subsequent vision is TFA's recreation of Luke's descent into the cave.

There's also the interesting reversal with the Skywalker saber. Luke's experience begins with his diminutive Force mentor telling him to leave it behind. He refuses. Rey's experience ends with her diminutive Force mentor telling her to take it up. She refuses.

 

I do fancy an ultimately Ulic-esque fate (sans death), just juggled up a bit, where everyone (Rey, Luke, Leia, etc.) thinks Kylo died defeating Snoke, but Kylo secretly survived and fled to live out his life alone in hermitage as penance for his sins. Then in the inevitable Episode X, the new young character can meet "Ben Solo," the mythological hermit who was once a mighty warrior or some such.

 

I don't think we're supposed to like him. He's a wuss. He doesn't have the backbone to do the right thing when his heart is telling him to. He is literally choosing to do bad not because he feels like he has no choice, but because he wants to and he's going against every inclination in him to do it. He's the opposite of Anakin. Anakin, at his base, had a desire to do good but he had to fight the darkness within him. Kylo, on the other hand, wants to do bad but he can't because he's actually a good kid at heart, but he doesn't want to be so he's choosing to do bad because "being bad is cool." He's a little punk who's intentionally not living up to his potential. How are we supposed to like someone like that? That said, I like him as a villain. He just works well in that role. But I do kind of want to see him redeemed as I described.

 

The writers really backed themselves into a corner when they wrote in Kylo killing Han...

 

I think there'll be something redemption-ish with Kylo but he ain't getting a smiling happy Force Ghost ending.

 

I dunno. I don't think Kylo Ren has trouble doing bad things because he's a good kid at heart. I don't think he has much trouble doing bad things at all, really.

We saw him agonize over doing one specific bad thing, sure, but that was it.

I guess he might have had a little cry after shooting up his school, too, but that was a while ago. I don't think his struggle in TFA is meant to be indicative of what he's like most of the time. It's his "greatest test", and whatnot.

 

I don't think we're supposed to like him either, but I think you're misjudging Kylo a bit.

He's not choosing "bad," he's choosing the "dark side," which he thinks is the right thing to do. He's trying to let go of his attachments (to Han, his mother, the Republic, etc.) so he can fulfill his mission and greater purpose... (while Anakin was supposed to let go of Shmi/Padme to put the galaxy first, but his instinct was saying to put them above the Jedi/Republic)
...it just turns out that in this case it's the mission that's totally screwed up.
But in his mind, he's trying to show courage, to fight his weakness and fulfill his potential, and have the backbone to do the "right" thing and kill his "evil" father that's threatening to prevent a better galaxy from emerging. Points of view.

They just never explained why Kylo turned... why he thinks the dark side is the right thing to do.

I think one of the reasons why they did that was precisely so no one would expect him to be redeemed afterwards. Think of Anakin killing the children and choking Padme. It's supposed to make us think "he's past the point of no return." But as Vader's story showed us, you are NEVER past the point of no return.

 

I think Kylo's redemption has 95 per cent chance of happening, it's painfully obvious where they're going with this character it's not even amusing. I think that's precisely why they killed Han beside HF wanting the character to die for years.
But then I read he wants to succeed where his grandfather failed but he knows it's bad but does it anyway. Is that supposed to make him sympathetic because from where I'm standing, it makes him look extremely dumb.

 

Yeah one thing I think they got "right" about Kylo was making him pretty much universally despised by all fans.

*browses Deviantart*

Ok almost universally despised. Screw you bunch of Deviants.

Kylo seems to be getting a free pass on the Starkiller thing all the time. Like I remember arguing with some folks last year when they said that wasn't really his doing and him killing Han was much worse, but... I dunno. Kylo was pivotal to the Starkiller's success. Then he sat there with front-row seating and didn't raise a hand to stop it. As you say, we only saw him agonize over Han. I don't really think he cared about all the innocents Starkiller wiped out. Heck his mom could easily have been on one of those planets at the time.

 

The more I think about it, the more I believe Kylo will turn to the light in episode VIII...

Why exhibit his weakness so early in the trilogy? Why make it so evident that he is drawn back to the light?... unless...Writers plan to turn him early.

Otherwise it would make more sense to deepen the dread and villainy surrounding his character...

 

I imagine it was done primarily to bait the audience into thinking there was a chance he'd turn back in this movie. I mean, TFA is already retreading "bigger Death Star" immediately after RotJ, it's not totally out there to think it'd redo "father-son redemption" immediately afterwards, too.

 

This, but Kyle Katarn instead. Old Man Kyle.

Ben Solo? Never heard of him. I remember a Jacen Solo, and a Ben Skywalker, but not Ben Solo. You've got your names mixed up, kid.

"interesting"

 

I remember a Jacen Skywalker, too.

*looks pointedly at WotC*

 

I don't know, the filmmakers have said that Kylo's story is the evolution of a villain. We've seen him cross a line that Vader refused to. He doesn't have any desire to repent (remember, his biggest fear is that he can't be the biggest, baddest dark side user ever).

While I hope they keep him three-dimensional in the sequels, I'm not seeing redemption in his future. If so, I don't think they've set up that story very well.

 

What if the trilogy ends more ambiguously than the OT... what if it ends more similar to a reverse PT?

Meaning... what if it's a clear victory for Resistance/Republic/Rey (RRR), but the First Order survives and signs a peace treaty (because RRR don't have the strength to completely wipe the FO out) and the FO simply retreats to their occupied space in the Unknown Regions led by Supreme Leader Kylo Ren who promises to build-up their military and dark-side apprentices for decades so they can win the next war? Kind of a darker take on the Hand of Thrawn duology's ending, but with Kylo as the new Bane and already in charge of a mini-empire that the heroes just couldn't completely destroy?

 

I don't know if I like this idea or not, but it is a very interesting one.

 

I don't know if I like it either, but I feel like it's very possible. They can't rip off the ROTJ ending (and even if they do we know it won't last as long as implied, see: everything post-ROTJ, in both continuities). This shows that whenever they do decide to make 10-12 (which is inevitable, even if it's not for 20 years) there is already somewhat of a direction. While also being a unique trilogy ending, different from both ROTS and ROTJ. And sadly somewhat realistic, there will always be a new threat until the fundamentals are changed. Just like ROTS acknowledged the heroes survive and will rise again, 9 could do the same thing for the villains. It would also make sense of the comments like (paraphrasing) "the ST shows how Kylo becomes a villain, his villain's journey." Then 10-12 (after a cold war) could show both sides, completely rebuilt, Jedi and dark-siders, democracy and dictatorship, completely ready and expecting a fight.

 

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