Lit Pro-Empire

Surprised Catalyst hasn't been mentioned yet. It's not a sympathetic portrayal of the Empire, but it shows good people falling under its sway, and getting into the mindset of Imperials who think they can do good via their service.

 

I'm all in favour of stories that add moral complexity/ambiguity. A clear cut line of demarcation between the good guys, who only ever do objectively benevolent things, and the bad guys, who do cartoonishly evil things seemingly just for the sake of it, has always bored me. I'd much rather have someone I like as an individual, but fundamentally disagree with, or someone who I dislike but can grudgingly empathise with.

On a side note, I've always wanted a TIE Fighter series of novels to serve as a counterpoint to the Stackpole/Allston X-Wing series. Having a whole squadron of pilots as the main cast would allow for the exploration of a number of takes on an Imperial: your traditional "good Imperial" who disagrees with the Empire's excesses but still feels compelled to serve out of a sense of law, order, duty, and/or honour; the stereotypical ruthless Imperial who never balks at orders; the good Imperial who has doubts which ultimately compel them to defect; an undercover loyalty officer who has to grapple with their duty to report traitors and their increasingly close bonds with their wingmates forged through battle; and any other variation that could be thought of. That would have been amazing.

 

I'd love to see Jason Fry revisit the TIE pilots from "Last Call at the Zero Angle". There were some interesting and diverse opinions on the Empire and the Rebellion presented by them.

 

I'd love to see more stories from the Empire's point of view, but I don't think telling stories from that point of view necessarily muddies the waters or adds "moral complexity" in the grand scheme. The Empire is evil, and has to be evil for the stories to work, and given what we know about them any arguments that they're really good and that blowing up Alderaan was justified or whatever are just tiresome. What Rogue One achieves in graying up the Rebellion is, on the other hand, really very interesting, and I'd love to see the Rebellion from the Empire's point of view.

 

I would love to see more Empire material, the Sith based titles from Legends were some of my favourites, Vader has become more interesting to me with time and I've always wanted a TIE Fighter book ever since first playing the game a frightening amount of time ago now.

So far in the new canon we've seen a few stories focused on Sith/Imperial characters but even books not focused on them have shown several strands of storytelling within the Empire. The Sith, the Imperial command level, troopers and pilots and lastly citizens. Through books like New Dawn, Aftermath, Lost Stars, Catalyst, Battlefront and Lords of the Sith (plus the Vader comic and Rebels) we've seen these covered through characters such as Vader, Tarkin, Krennic, Rae Sloane, Ciena Ree, Thara Nyede, Agent Kallus and the Erso family.

What I think we've seen so far in the new canon shows that the Empire contains the pure evil you would expect, mostly concentrated at the top but still present at all levels, yet it also has various groups of people supporting it who aren't cackling cartoon villains and these can be good or bad people as well. Krennic for example basically just wants power, the Empire just seems like a vehicle for him to get it and he doesn't care how. Rae Sloane is still towards the evil/bad end of the spectrum but you get the sense her service is from a belief that the Empire is a good thing, that it brings order to the galaxy and that this is the way to ultimately bring peace. Her actions in dealing with Rebels are wrong but at the same time she isn't the kind of Imperial who wants to be commanding an ISD just to conduct orbital bombardments for giggles. Then you have Ciena Ree and Thara Nyede from Lost Stars and Battlefront. Both are essentially good people who serve the Empire loyally to bring order to the galaxy and keep people safe. When they see bad things happen try to rationalise these events along the lines of 'the Empire may not be perfect but it is a good thing and if it falls we may go back to the horrors of the Clone Wars'. We see a similar thread to this with Krennic's manipulation of the Ersos, a war weary galaxy relieved that a horrifying conflict is over and not wanting to repeat it, and most of them would still be alive in the original trilogy era so would probably be very receptive to Imperial propaganda painting the Rebels as Seperatists 2.0

I think in light of where we've come in the real world with the Internet since the original trilogy was made, control of information and perceptions is something that should be explored a lot more, how do the Rebels get their message out and how does the Empire convince people that it is the best option, yes it uses force to get what it wants sometimes but you can't do that everywhere all of the time. These characters have also added diversity to the Imperial cast both in gender and skin colour which kind of makes me think the whole white supremacist thing before Rogue One was more politically motivated in light of the 'interesting' times we're living in than part of some overarching story plan for the saga.

Going forward I think it's a safe bet we'll see more Vader material which is fine, I hope we'll see some exploration of the Sith beyond Sidious and him though as those areas of Legends always fascinated me. I imagine we may see something in this form once Episode VIII is out and we have a clearer idea on Snoke & Kylo, are they Sith, Darth titles and all? or will they be something slightly different? But hopefully at some point they'll feel safe to go back prior to Episode I again. Palpatine manipulating things will always be in the background but I do wonder to what degree he has effectively his chess board with all the pieces and a touch of mind control here, a suggestion there sends them off to do his bidding, he plays the very long game but is his view of the Sith that he should ever be replaced? I could also see a sequel to Lost Stars in which Ciena has to struggle with her loyalty to an Empire that has basically gone at that point and perhaps serving the New Republic to try and bring that same sense of order to the galaxy, or they might go the route of putting them all on trial and executing them I suppose which would be a shame, she isn't exactly a Moff. Most of all I'd love books on a Star Destroyer Captain/Imperial Navy Officer, a TIE Fighter pilot or a squad of Stormtroopers as these are the core people in the Empire we see on screen in all the scenes doing their jobs in the background, getting shot at or trying to stop Han/Luke/Leia, who are they? Hopefully we'll get to see some of this and of course we have the Thrawn novel to look forward to, but I guess how much we get there depends upon the approach Zahn takes.

 

I'm Pro-First Order, Anti-Empire, Pro-Sith, Anti-Sith Empire

 

Yes please. I always wanted a Soontir Fel TIE Fighter counterpart series. We can still have that in the new canon - Rogue Squadron (when it eventually forms) vs. the 181st during the Original Trilogy. *grabby hands*


As far as Disney not liking moral complexity and depth--haha okay. People have already mentioned Lost Stars and Servants of the Empire. I'd add the Aftermath books for their use of Sloane and Sinjir (a morally complex person trying to do good by using skills he learned in the Empire).

 

I recommend Tarkin. It may not be exactly what you look for but it does delve in the inner politics of the Empire.

 

I don't agree with the people who are saying Servants of the Empire is pro-Empire. It's about a kid who's pro-Empire for the first few chapters until he realizes they're evil and then spends the rest of the series basically being an undercover Rebel faking his way through the system.


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His teacher Chiron qualifies as a sympathetic Imperial loyalist though.

 

I'd be interested in seeing this too. Considering how Star Wars drew from real life history we could get some interesting stories if someone went deep into their history. We tend to over simplify history to where certain people were the good guys and other people were the enemy (The two World Wars are the easiet to compare too). WWI has been described as a more morally ambiguous war where we didn't have a clear idea of the enemy even though it was Germany where as WWII makes it more clear Germany and anyone who allied with them such as Japan and Italy were the enemy. Even those who were technically the enemy and remained so after the war couldn't be classified as such until the war ended because they allied with the Allied forces like Russia.

But what we tend to forget is that not everyone was just insane or evil like their leader was. There were people who served as part of the German army who didn't do so because they were insane people who just wanted to massacre entire races they did so because they were loyal to their country and held a great deal of patriotism which in war time is considered a big priority because otherwise you were just seen as a coward or traitor to your country. These people's methods weren't always right but they just wanted to get their job done in the name of what they believed was right. But the thing is these exact same people were on the side of the Allies too you just have too look or even there are notable examples of people who were deemed a bit extreme but they were great in mind like Patton. The controversial figures of history tend to be the most fascinating it seems. There are people who were on the side of the enemy who were brilliant in strategy and while they killed many they weren't entirely savage.

Many have debated whether Erwin Rommel is someone who could have been a great hero if he was on the winning side but he is still deemed a hero of Germany and a patriot who while he served the Nazis its debated whether he was in full agreement with their lifestyle and Hitler and his enemies also knew well enough that he was a worthy opponent that was worth respecting. People are willing to admit when the enemy is worthy of respect if they gain it. While a person's method might be surprising you can't help but admire their ambition and ingenuity whether you want to admit it or not because you might feel like you're tempted to join them in that regard if you become too respectful of one side.

You might do a 180 and join the opposing side after you've seen a different point of view. We've seen this from the Imperial perspective with Kallus. But I would actually like to see this with a Rebel. Something happens to where a Rebel completely changes their tune and sides with the Empire and not someone pretending like Brent Spiner was in Rebels I mean someone who seemingly in the eyes of the Rebellion lost their way and joined the enemy so to speak but it's not as simple as that.

What I'm getting at is if they wanted to portray the Empire and the Rebels more closer to real life then they would also have to show the sides of the Empire who weren't just evil people who wanted to kill. Some people genuinely believed in the cause of the Empire and bought into the fact that they believed they were doing the right thing and that the unification under the Empire's rule was the only way to achieve peace. Rogue One also was willing to show that the Rebels aren't the perfect heroes. They did extreme things to in order to get the job done and survive. These methods don't sit well with everyone as we know Mon Mothma and Bail Organa disagree with Saw Gerrera's methods of being an extremist Rebel and seem to want to cover up his methods as being something they don't tolerate but as Bloodlines later revealed Saw and people like him weren't forgotten by people in the Empire even years later and were used as an example to show that the Rebels weren't perfect. But what people sometimes have to do is "compromise" as long as the end resulted in people being safe but there's a limit to that too.

I'm reminded of this exchange from Captain America The Winter Soldier (Speaking of anyone who says Disney won't allow a full on political intrigue story I don't think that's true when the Captain America sequels exist. Get the Russos involved and Marcus and McFreely the writers of those films and we could get a good political Star Wars story)

"You know, I read those SSR files. Greatest generation? You guys did some nasty stuff."

"Yeah, we compromised. Sometimes in ways that made us not sleep so well. But we did it so the people could be free. This isn't freedom, this is fear."

"S.H.I.E.L.D. takes the world as it is, not as we'd like to be. And it's getting damn near past time for you get with that program, Cap."

"Don't hold your breath."

So I would like to see more novels focused on Imperial Moffs be it one of them (maybe Yularen or something or while he's not a Moff but a novel about Kallus and how he was inspired to join the the Empire and his early days under Yularen and show that confrontation with Saw and the destruction of the Lasan homeworld) or a group of them. Similar to Tarkin or how I hope Thrawn is going to be. Where we see the everday activities of these people and how they operate and talk with one another and respond to situations. How many of them are extremist in their methods? How many of them are doing this because it just felt like the natural order of things because all they knew was following orders even if it might seem extreme? How many of them truly serve the Emperor or do they do so out of fear or are there ones who are becoming too ambituous for their own good?

Maybe a book detailing a history of other Moff characters like Yularen or maybe a book about a group of Moffs conspiring to defect from the Empire to the Rebels or plan a take over which was done in the Legends stories. Then maybe one focusing on their remenants coming together after Return of the Jedi. How many signed the treaty of surrender and who didn't?

I'd also like to see this either as a film spin off or a novel but a story I had where Saw captures a group of Storm Troopers and they need to fight for survival while trying to survive his brutal tactics and torture. Their initial mission was about taking someone out but what they find is that their target wasn't the exact one they were looking for. Show the Rebels from the Empire point of view but not to where it feels one sided. Show how they too can be brutal in their methods and Saw and his extremist group could be the way to show that. Saw could get his own novel or comic series really.

Of course there's the idea of what kinds of characters we could use? Like I said you could use some known examples like Yularen or Kallus. Maybe even show hints of Ozzel, Piett, Motti and others. But my guess is they'd have to be original characters. If Thrawn continues to play a big role in the future I think Pellaeon could be recanonised maybe even Daala but they'd have to alter things in her history like her ties to Tarkin (or if they could keep some ties to Tarkin but only use that she was discovered and encouraged by him while taking out the romantic attraction) and possibly Ysanne Isard could be recanonised with things changed. Really Pellaeon is the only one you wouldn't need to anything drastic too in terms of changing him.

But yeah that's what I think. I know I kind of went on by detailing more about history rather than talk about what I'd like to see but context is needed plus it doesn't help to learn things once in awhile.

 

The point of Servants of the Empire is determining what you're willing to accept from government and what it takes for someone to rebel. Not everyone in the Empire is evil, not everyone running the Empire is a bad person.

Even though it's not the Empire, Ransolm Casterfo would be a good example of this viewpoint.

 

I don't even want Disney to try to make the Empire "sympathetic". It's far too late for them to show the Empire from a good prospective. So far their portrayal of the Empire has been completely "Evil". Don't even get me started on the First Order. I would never read a book where "the Empire is EVIL but just happens to have good people in it". That is just too annoying. I would prefer a book that's A LOT more grey, and you can make up your mind, instead of having morals shoved down your face. The EU does a much better job of showing the Empire; Legacy is really the best, which portrays the Empire as quasi-good guys. Even the Thrawn Trilogy does a good job at this. While reading it I want nothing more than the Empire to prevail. The Empire is most certainly, a force for good. It happens to have an evil Sith as a leader, which resulted in some Evil acts commuted by the Empire. I won't deny that. But we all know how good the Empire is without Plapatine. A civilization on a Galactic scale wouldn't last long if everyone hated it. In the true canon the Empire lasted 150 years and is still going. In the EU we had good people like Thrawn, Pellaeon, Jax and the Fels. I don't think well ever get a good portrayal of the Empire under the tyranny of a much bigger Empire.

 

It would be an awesome book: Baron Fel, Thrawn, Piett, Vader fighting evil pirates, while Ozzel making their life more difficult, and Tarkin just joins the show to do something evil...

Just add some Organas who actually are not exactly against the Imp Navy this time (why would they help criminals?!)... it would be fireworks.

There are awesome and very popular fanfiction about similar storyline. It takes a good author with a definite interest in military matters to make this story work. It wouldn't be such a great risk: there are so many Vader and Thrawn fans out there, the book would be a bestseller in no time.

 

I take it you haven't read Lost Stars or anything with Rae Sloane in it, then?

 

Lost Stars does exactly that and does so probably better than anything in the EU

Also I have a hard time labeling Thrawn or Pelleaon as good people. Thrawn killed subordinates and bbed civilians during his campaign for example. Pellaein had his gardening discussion with Leia that was disturbing. And it wasn't just the emperor that made it bad. After him we had Pestage and Isard. The EU Empire was hardly nuanced. For the vast majority of the EU Imperial leaders were evil. They weren't sympathetic.

Also, it's not a matter of what Disney will do because they aren't guiding star wars. For the most part, the same people who were in charge before the reboot are currently in charge. Disney hasn't controlled a single decision.

 

Wasn't he the guy who collected Empire stuff? If so i thought he was the best character in that novel. Reminded me of me. As in i only buy empire stuff for my collection. I really need to read Bloodline again though.

 

Post-truth.

All your examples of good people in the Empire were consistently frustrated by all the power-mongering until decades after the Empire was defeated. The Empire in Legacy was severely reformed, and even then the good Emperor wound up just keeping the throne warm for the Sith.

Morally complex stories or not, we have the benefit of the entire rest of the narrative. If your mind's not made up about the Empire...

 

Not to mention how many of the Imperials/warlords in the old EU were pretty one-dimensional villains. Krennel (I accidentally wrote Krennic here at first ), Zsinj until Allston fleshed him out, all the guys who got offed at Tsoss Beacon....

 

Exactly, and they drowned out and stomped down all the more complex Imperials for about 100 years. The culture of the Empire Palpatine established routinely punished men like Soontir Fel and rewards men like friggin' Trioculus all the way up to the Vong war, and even then Jacen - and Daala after him - were able to sink the galaxy into chaos by taking advantage of that particular strain. I would be fascinated to find out how they planned to put Jag on the throne, but alas...

 

In the old days, I toyed with the idea of writing a fanfic series that would've spanned the twenty years between ROTS and ANH, from the POV of Imperial characters, and that would've gone into the evolution of the Empire, not necessarily from "good" to "bad" so much as from "perceived as good and welcomed" to "perceived as bad and rejected." The Empire itself doesn't necessarily change much over the 20 year period. But in its original context, in the chaos of the Clone Wars and the corruption of the Republic, it's welcomed as a force for order and renewal, and in its later context, two years later, more and more people recognize the price they're paying for all that and want something better.

(To clarify, I haven't written fanfic since high school, which was over ten years ago, and I'm unlikely ever to again. But I still get ideas from time to time).

 

Lol, I guess I quit defending the Empire. New Empire for life, from now on. Long live Empress Fel.

 

It all depends on what you mean by "Pro-Empire". If "Pro Empire" means "a story that portrays the Empire as the heroes and the Rebels as villains", I feel that such a story would be antithetical to the spirit of Star Wars. However, I definitely think Star Wars can and has done stories to give the Empire more depth. I definitely think you can explore the Imperial perspective, as long as the writer never starts portraying them as out and out good guys.

There have been Star Wars stories with out and out Villain Protagonists, like Darth Vader Comics (Legends and New Canon), and the Darth Bane books. Such works may go into the minds of theses interesting characters, but never pretends they aren't evil. The Darth Bane books for example remind us that at the end of the day, no matter how interesting he is to follow, Bane will snap the necks of children to acheive his goals.

There have also been Star Wars stories that follow Imperials who aren't really Villain Protagonists, but sympathetic Imperials. Characters like Janek Sunber or Ciena Ree. Such characters have internal doubts, try to justify evil actions as being for The Greater Good, or blame it on their evil leaders. Such characters may have been heroes of the Rebel Alliance in another life, but for one reason or another they are loyal to the Empire. Still, it's made clear that even if they're good people they are serving a great evil. One of the Sunber arcs is called "The Wrong Side Of The War" for a reason, and Lost Stars makes it clear at the end of the day the Empire had to be stopped.

Then there are works that don't really have an Imperial protagonist, but occasionally go inside the head of an Imperial character. Stuff like Twilight Company has the occaisonal interlude from a Stormtrooper who totally buys into the propaganda, and an old man who has been forcibly dragged out of retirement to help the Empire and just wants to go back to his academy job. Both Imperials, both very different characters. But neither of these characters really question the rightness of the Empire, or even mention Alderaan. They're not evil like Vader or Sheev, but they are still helping an evil organization. Relevant quote from Legacy:

All in all, flesh out the Empire and the Imperials all you want, even make some of the Imps sympathetic and some of the Rebs crooked. But the writers should never lose sight of who the bad guy is supposed to be.

 

Cannot resist, too good an opportunity - "Are you blind?"