PT PT Discussion of future SW Content (Locked) - Discussion Moved to Saga Board

I see this thread has just decided to drink its own bath water now. Sorry you folks aren't enjoying yourself. Us "arrogant" fans will be over here having some Swarzy fun.

 

Really? I only defended the bowcaster plot element. However, I also stated: Both films have their lapses of internal logic, and convenient plot developments, but I'm certainly not convinced, that TFA is the worst offender in the saga. This clearly has two implications:

1) I don't deny TFA's shortcomings in this respect, something you're still not able to do with respect to TPM
2) I write, I'm certainly not convinced, which clearly means I favour TFA, but I'm not going to state it's unequivocal, unlike your continued lambasting of TFA, contrasted by the poetic cover up of TPM´s shortcomings

Secondly, I've pointed to the three issues in TPM, but I also pointed to four issues in the OT:

1) Luke is hidden on his father's home planet, with his father's family, keeping his father's name
2) Luke crash landing conveniently next to Yoda's dwelling in TESB
3) Yoda conveniently dying at the exact moment Luke revisits him in ROTJ
4) The ewok victory over the Empire's troops (which I specifically named the the worst case of abandoned logic and plot convenience in the saga next to Anakin's victory in TPM)

So, the idea that I singled out TPM is just nonsense. You want me to name a number of other problems with the OT and TFA to make it even more obvious? Watch carefully, here goes:

OT:

1) Leia can't choose between English and American English in ANH
2) Luke is more upset with the death of Obi-Wan, whom he's only known at most a few days, than the death of his aunt and uncle
3) Obi-Wan's Force ghosts can sit down in ROTJ, so apparently being a ghost just means you glow in the dark
4) That Luke and Leia are siblings, screams cop-out (damn we still have to explain "the other", meh, let's make Luke and Leia brother and sister)

TFA:

1) Starkiller base is a terrible idea
2) Why is there a map to a guy, who's in hiding?
3) R2-D2's convenient awakening

I'm sure I can think of some more, but you get the idea.

Yes, but this I would characterize as being an example of wanting to see deeper meaning and poetry, even in Lucas' failings. Incidentally, the motion blur, or single swoosh as you call it, was only added as an effect for the TPM bluray:



In the original version of TPM the two characters were separately distuinguishable, so while it is a nice poetic cover story to the Force speed inconsistency, it certainly wasn't Lucas' original intent.

 

You've proven their point. Quoting a small post from three pages back only to drop by with a one-line smug retort suggests where you're at with the franchise.

There has actually been some fair, detailed discussion the last few pages, all of which you have, of course, breezed right over. Good choice, though. Leave reasoned discussion to the grown-ups.

 

So wait... we are supposed to dislike TFA becasue it's just rehash of ANH, except when it it isn't, and then we hate it because it's different. Gotcha.

 

There has been, but that post really pissed me off. My apologies to the more nuanced discussions that have occurred.

 

I'm not confusing anything! As I said before, you are defending what Luke says in the trailer by twisting what is said into something he isn't saying. Again from the trailer:

"I only know one truth, it's time for the Jedi, to end"

That is not reform, that is not radical changes, that is not adapting! What Luke is saying is that there is only one truth, that the Jedi as an entity, order, organization has to come to an end. That suggests that Luke sees fault.

Using your country, and what you stated about it not making changes post WW1, as an example. If I said to you:

"I only know one truth, it's time for <insert your countries name here>, to end"

I bet you wouldn't be so defending of a statement like that! It doesn't suggest reform or adaptation, it suggests that what makes your country, your country, needs to come to an end because it's policies didn't work.

Again:

"I only know one truth, it's time for the Jedi, to end."

That is what Luke says in the trailer. It clearly implies that Luke knows one thing, and one thing only, that he believes that the Jedi, not parts, not individual pieces, not certain codes, but the Jedi need to end, to be gone, the Jedi as a whole! Not parts of pieces, the Jedi. Clearly he believes that whatever the Jedi are, are at some sort of fault for what has transpired for him to believe the Order needs to end.

No i m not arguing that it's the end of force users. I'm arguing that Luke wants to end the Jedi....

This issue I have, from and out of universe perspective, is that, just as I have said earlier, this concept that the Jedi were at least in some ways to blame for what happened to them, and that "balance to the force" means that the Jedi have to be ended just as the Sith were, was born largely out of the fandom. The concept has little to no evidence in the movies, and if people wanted to really understand and find the answers then there is enough information from Lucas himself to show that the Jedi aren't the bad guys. It seems to me that the people that have issue with the Jedi do so because of their own dogmatic views of what a Jedi should be or their own personal views of religion.

I don't mind one bit that we have a somewhat broken and confused Luke. What I will mind is if Luke's reaction is so far out of what is reasonable for his character in what we have already seen in how he responds to tragedy and the seemingly endless struggle of the Skywalker lineage. What Hamill has said about Luke further concerns me that they are just going to take Luke's breakdown too far. A man that was willing to sacrifice himself and face his own Father and the most evil of evil in the universe, declares he is a Jedi, just to throw the Jedi under the bus?

Now does this mean I am "losing my mind" over this? Nope, not at all. I understand that we have yet to see the movie. However, the important thing here for me is not to demonize fans that are expressing their views or unhappiness with this. The fans didn't make the trailer, we didn't edit it, didn't approve it. So it's clear that those that did make those decisions want us to at least in some small way think about Luke's words in the trailer.

 

What is clear is that he believes it is time for the Jedi to end, not that he sees fault or that he thinks they need to end.
That could mean a number of things. For example, it might be that the Jedi are about to end, that their time has come, whether he likes it or not. He might have studied an (the?) ancient prophecy and seen that it's coming true and it might be that the prophecy says the Jedi will end.
We just don't know at this point. We have no context, so we can't say anything with certainty.

 

Thanks. On another note, I do admit, at least, discussions might be reasoned, but not always reasonable. In that, yes, things do get a bit circular, in a lot of ways, and I can understand irritation with that aspect, too.

It's all subjective, though, isn't it? I think the world of TFA is more basic; and I see the joins. They definitely put the film together in more of a hurry, to fit certain agendas, and it shows, in my opinion.

That said, I did just give TFA some credit. "Credit" might be putting it a bit strongly, but let's go with "benefit of the doubt". Kinda.

Returning to my remark above, what we give a pass to is largely predicated on our own tastes and preferences; our own "condition".

Okay. I guess you truly didn't think you were singling out TPM; but, in my eyes, you kinda were. All those are spread across the OT, but you went after TPM several times alone about stuff in its final act. Which, I'll agree, is perhaps its most extreme part, with even Lucas conceding in "The Beginning" that he "may have gone too far in a few places".

Also, well, this isn't entirely directed at you, but every time prequel fans used exactly your rhetoric in the past (analogies with the OT and what was previously done), they'd be mocked and even angrily set upon for "trying to bring down the OT", or "using what-about-ism", in order to "polish those wretched prequel turds". So it's kinda funny to see you relying on the same tactic now, that got prequel fans dismissed innumerable times in the past, in my opinion.

Right. You still said something about TPM being a particularly bad offender. But now all these other qualifications appear. Yes, Star Wars is full of oddities; but, again, owed to subjective differences, some people find some aspects more distracting or objectionable than others.

The amended Blu-ray version does put it across better. But even in the original, you can see that Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan appear somewhat ghostly and faint; fitting the esoteric nature of their escape and accentuating certain themes suggested by the title (The PHANTOM Menace).

The charge that Obi-Wan should have used a Force-assisted burst of speed to clear the laser gates rests on the assumption that the fact he doesn't is lazy screenwriting or a "mistake". But that's curious given that Luke in the carbon freezing duel, surprising Vader enough for him to deem Luke's manoeuvre "impressive", is the only other time a character "evades" a pressing threat (Vader attempting to freeze him) in this way. Despite their fantastical abilities, we never see Jedi zooming on foot at great speed; only this one time at the start of the PT. So I choose to see it as a cool one-off technique (like Luke jumping out of the pit), which looks neat on its own terms, and maybe expresses a symbolic point or two. The re-emergence of the Sith punctures the Jedi bubble and Mace and Yoda even discuss their waning powers in AOTC. At the beginning of TPM, they're meant to be at their height. But it's really a matter of what narrative conceits you buy into.

 

LOL, you deserved a like for this line alone...Kinda

 

Cryogenic

I would also like to add, that despite my criticisms against TPM, it's actually my favourite prequel, and it's been steadily climbing in esteem over the last few years. I really like it's visual splendor, and together with ANH it's the most like a fairy tale, which I am a fan of.

 

He was?
Because when he fought Finn, he was perfectly fine. In fact, Finn is, I guess, physically stronger than Rey and Kylo managed to squeeze him against the tree and nearly kill him.

No.
I had no expectations about Ep 7 villain, but I didn't like the execution of Kylo's character. He starts as a powerful villain, then he whines and talks to helmets, he gets wounded, but still manages to beat Finn (physically) and loses to Rey. There are ups and downs, but I feel they're not on one straightforward line.

There are some people that do not like TFA. In fact, there's more and more of them. You can't jump on every criticism as benigne as mine.

Trust me, I'm a PT fan... I know.

 

I guess you missed the part where he was bleeding:



Also, Finn managed to get a shot in, which at least to me indicated, that Kylo was distracted, and not in the clearest state of mind. The fact that Finn is stronger shouldn't really matter, since Rey didn't win by punching Kylo's lights out, but by using:

 

She used the force on a Palpatine level force user? That's exactly why some people think TFA is an excruciating affair. Where Lucas may have taken a few shortcuts in the name of expediency, TFA just keeps pounding them on as if the audience would never notice.

Literally our first scene with Kylo show him boasting some unprecedented force powers. The intent is quite clearly that the audience will be awed and fearful of his amazing abilities. But when the plot requires it, he is defeated by two amateurs, one of which is not even force sensitive.

That's not the problem with TFA though. SW is pulpy enough to get away with flukes like that. What hurts TFA and every SW movie being made under the Disney helm, is the complete abandonment of story telling in favor of quick profits. These new entries are soulless productions, like any other entity existing solely to make money.

 

These kind of arguments remind me of the ones used in the 2000s, where the then new entries of the saga were described by some detractors as existing solely to sell toys. A collegue of mine at the time, who admittedly wasn't a big Star Wars fan like me, consistently referred to the almighty creator as George Lu-cash. History is bound to repeat itself...

 

And yours remind me of those used in cults and fundamentalist religions throughout history. You're not even interested in defending your argument, it's straight to diversion and deflection tactics. Whether or not TFA or TPM have inconsistencies is not something you really care about. It's just a tool, as easily used as it is thrown away.

Those arguments btw, that they used in the early 2000s (and well beyond), they came from your camp. You can still see the Lucash card being played, but I guess less so because even the most fervent Lucas hater realize Disney is not in it for charity, so they rightfully fear feeling like a hypocrite.

 

Careful now! Accusing someone of being part of a cult or being fundamentalist is not playing nice, and I believe is actually against the rules, and so is the "your camp" one.

 

Yeah. I wouldn't say there's no artistic imperative behind these movies whatsoever. People are trying to create fun, interesting stuff here. That said, Lucasfilm is no longer an independent outfit, and Lucas isn't the one making these movies, so they're not exactly "rebel ship" movies, either.

 

Well, that is why I made sure to say in that post that:

So of course I realize things can play out different.

However, where I do disagree with you is that we do have some context to Luke's state of mind where we could see that he would believe that the Jedi would need to end.

That context is TFA, TLJ is not the first movie, it is the second. TFA is the movie that turns Luke into someone that turns his back on his friends, family, and the Galaxy that he fought for. Someone that won't accept his lightsaber back, and wants to stare at someone in a sad way. With that context in mind, it is entirely possible that they will take Luke to a point of sever despondence and depression, with a whoa's me mentality and a "the Jedi can't do nothing right" outlook. I don't really care for Luke going that far down the rabbit hole, if that is how it plays out of course. Hamill has said he doesn't like what they did with Luke for a reason, and I don't think it's because he's a cheery fellow that is optimistic about the future.

And again, I don't care for any story line that "ends" the Jedi. There's no reason for it, from a plot, story, theme, moral, point of view, unless the story tellers want to go the route that the Jedi were part of the problem and not part of the solution. I would much rather have a situation where the Jedi are part of the solution. There has to be a reason for them to be ended...

 

I think the pic you posted is a bit of an unfair example to use as a rebuttal to Cryogenic and his point.

As most of us know, anything can happen in a few frames. So check this capture out that takes place just a few frames before the one you posted (as we can see the Droideka's blaster is just starting to turn red) from the DVD:



Obi Wan and Qui Gon completely disappear. Obviously the effect was that in a few frames they are gone, and in others they appear.

This gives the effect that when the movie is played at normal speed of blurring together, but still giving shape for us to see them. The scene is not meant to be stopped and screen capped at one frame. It's a movie, or moving picture for a reason.

I think it's safe to say that between 1999 and 2011, that Lucas made a purposeful effort to go back and clean up the jerky-ness of that effect to make it smoother. Who's to say, or not to say, he may of done it as a means to get his original intent across better because the original effect was clearly unsatisfactory for him and he made a specific effort to have it changed.

 

Thanks for the backup, mikeximus.

Yes, it's curious, now that you spotlight it like that. It's sort of like the way Lucas revised and then further revised Han and Greedo's infamous laser exchange. There seems to be a particular effect he is going for, when showing two characters acting, or reacting, at speed, and seemingly "fooling" or Force evading the other; perhaps the shifting through variant versions is meant to be "part" of the movie, a manifestation of the trick, itself.

Either way, your slightly-earlier-into-the-film screencap certainly illustrates that a "fade" effect, with Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan half-blurred from existence, or invisible to standard droid or camera sight, gives their dodge a layer of abstraction that (in my opinion) supports my earlier reading. They high-tail it out of there; but in a strange, merged-together, ghostly way. Are they merely moving fast or is something else going on?

Half a wave, half a particle: superposed state. That's the Jedi at the start of TPM, and, in a way, throughout the saga, I think. They are mystery characters. Perhaps the Jedi truly are the "phantom menace" of Star Wars. Well, it's an idea, isn't it?

 

Further regarding the laser gate, force run situation, at the bridge blast door, both Jedi were escaping from a threat and their path lacked timed obstacles. On Naboo, Obi was knocked off the catwalk, and lost his timing and symbiosis with Qui, and had to catch up with both his master and their foe. By the time Obi had reached the gate his timing was too far off to get through all the gates as both Maul and Qui passed through ahead of him. It is similar to a windmill in mini golf, its more timing than speed, and Obi was just a little off due to his setback caused by Maul earlier in the fight.

Going back to the Rey vs Kylo duel, there are several problems IMO. Both the OT and PT show that even a with a high potential, good health, and young age a force user can still be soundly defeated by another with less potential, crippled, or greatly older user with more training and experience. It is why a old man could defeat two much younger opponents and why a old cyborg broken in every sense of the word could defeat a much younger and far healthier and spry opponent. Even if Kylo is not well trained, he still has much more skill and experience than Rey who has nothing. Plus early in the fight he still could use the force against Rey. Even in the film, Rey doesn't have any skill and keeps using crude stabbing actions instead of using any slashing. This is besides Rey also somehow being a better mechanic and pilot than Han Solo despite never having flown anything before. At least Anakin had experience driving high speed racers and Luke flying sport aircraft. Basically, the film changed SW to say, males are dumb because it take them years of training to become good while females are automatically good and do not need to train and can easily defeat male opponents double their size and mass, which is a wrong message to send out, despite how PC it may be.

 

Very good, Slicer! Very good. A powerful Jedi you have become. I love your mini-golf analogy; and what you said about Obi losing his timing. Loss -- yes! It is viscerally felt when Obi-Wan falls and slams hard into that lower platform. The fearful symmetry of Obi and his quixotic Jedi Master as a symbiotic circle of epic ruination is broken here. Note how Obi-Wan's lightsaber clinks hard against the ledge as he struggles to hold on; sort of echoing Qui-Gon's saber lying on the floor after Obi-Wan watches Maul cut him down, which Obi-Wan later summons through the Force, after Maul kicks his own saber down the shaft, in order to get out of his predicament and finish off this exotic menace. As I said before, there is an abstract quality to the whole engagement; encouraging one to "mine" it for its symbolism. #VisualStorytelling

Yup. Rey locking arms with Kylo before she whoops him in the face is probably the most egregious aspect of their confrontation. Physically, to me, it looks wrong (a skinny girl beating an athletic guy at his peak -- even including his bowcaster injury to the gut?); and given that Kylo is meant to be adept with the Force, it feels dicey to invoke Rey's burgeoning prowess in that area to explain her victory. "Victory? Victory, you say? Not victory. The shroud of the social justice side has fallen. Begun this culture war has." But seriously, it looks clumsy, to me, and seems to be blatantly serving an agenda. However, don't you dare call Rey a Mary Sue, will you? Daisy Ridley may run at you and beat you with her stick.





"The Mary Sue thing in itself is sexist because it's a name of a woman..."

 

Even then, Vader had conditioned himself to get through the pain, perhaps even using it to his advantage in a dark side sense to fuel his anger. Kylo was slowly bleeding out, which is not exactly the same thing. The film also shows Kylo winning early on, and Rey composes herself, and uses the Force, which really surprises Kylo, like a boxer who's always used to winning, and never been hit square in the jaw. He simply can't believe what's happening, and is mentally unprepared. We're dealing with a guy, who's never been seriously challenged, who's mentally immature, and who's shot in the gut, getting weaker by the minute.

Apart from the fact that I believe a woman can beat a bigger man who's been shot, remember this one:



Wasn't Vader supposed to be this super strong cyborg, who can lift people of the floor with one hand and snap their neck like a twig? Shouldn't Luke be on the other side of the room by now. I mean Luke is obviously not physically stronger than his cyborg father, and yet here we have this scene, where they're arm wrestling with lightsabers for dramatic effect, and Luke wins. Now, if I really disliked ROTJ I might jump on this, and pick the movie apart, which is what's happening with TFA's fight, but since I like both films I give it a pass. Either way, such inconsistencies pop up in all the movies, but we tend to single them out once we decide a movie sucks.

 

In Star Wars, being a cyborg makes you weaker, which is the whole point of having GG cough so much in ROTS, his health is compromised. The whole reason Palps wanted to replace Vader with Luke was that Luke was young, healthy, mostly complete, still had most of his potential, and not a battered broken down old cyborg with diminished force potential, and health. As for Vader manually choking the rebel captain, he was unarmed, had fully surrendered, and was not fighting back. Unlike ROTJ Luke who was armed, trained in the force, has high force potential, and fiercely fighting back in a prolonged duel. Vader still had organic shoulders that can still fatigue, as well as likely having compromised health which would lead to reduced endurance especially at middle age. Notice by the time Luke cuts Vader's robotic hand off, he is out of breath and his life support system is maxxed out as he strains to catch his breath and his life system is barely keeping up. If his life support system has a duty cycle similar to a welder, then his cyborg limbs can too.

Oh, in case this is brought up, GG is mostly machine with just his brain and a few organs still being organic, while Vader still retains much more of his organic self more subject to organic fatigue than GG with a all machine body.