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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

Lit Pellaeon and the Imperial Remnant (split from Thrawn thread)

Discussion in 'Literature' started by comradepitrovsky, Apr 20, 2017.

  1. mnjedi

    mnjedi JCC Arena Game Host star 5 VIP - Game Host

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    Nov 4, 2012

    I wonder if the ruling council have authority to remove the emperor on grounds of insanity?
     
  2. GrandAdmiralJello

    GrandAdmiralJello Comms Admin ❉ Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque star 10 Staff Member Administrator

    Registered:
    Nov 28, 2000
    I should note that Carnor Jax's "Imperial Interim Ruling Council" is not the same entity as the Imperial Ruling Council or the Emperor's Ruling Circle which followed it.

    But yes, the Remnant is utterly distinct from the Empire.
     
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  3. patchworkz7

    patchworkz7 Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 26, 2004
    Agreed.

    And without Daala's zeal and pure force of will, he wouldn't have been handed a more or less intact war machine that he would use to impose his slightly nicer rule on the worlds that pledged to the Empire, were former Imperial worlds, or were occupied by the scattered but pledged to Daala and Pelly's military.

    Although largely ignore by KJA and other authors, there's something to be said for Daala's ability to raise a fleet from nothing (which she does directly after leaving Pelly, as next we see her she's leading a flotilla of, iirc, Imperials on a colony mission), while Pelly wasn't known for being someone that followers flocked to but had a somewhat stable reconstituted military and administration.

    Daala handed a military and the administration arm of said military over and Pelly kept things running, but there's no clear line of succession or legality to his rule.

    The New Republic recognized them (eventually) but that was out of necessity, and when at war it probably would have been confusing to rebrand your enemy.

    I really wish we'd gotten more of insane pirate queen Daala, and from a meta, I do like the idea of Pelly just showing up with the Imperial military having been declared Supreme Commander as a matter of course and just sort of moving in and relying on the Imperial loyal worlds to continue to be loyal as well as relying on Daala's reforms to keep the commanders from splintering again too badly to hold the territory that still identified as being Imperial affiliated.
     
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  4. Charlemagne19

    Charlemagne19 Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Jul 30, 2000
    I'm of the opinion the Ruling Council's assumption of Imperial authority is extremely shaky legally as is.

    The Emperor dissolving the Imperial Senate may or may not have been legal.

    But I believe it was "officially" meant to be only a temporary action for the state of the emergency.

    As such, the authority to name a new Emperor was LEGALLY (if not actually) in the hands of the now-defunct Imperial Senate.

    Which means this guy probably had the most title to being Emperor as he continued to name himself an Imperial Senator far after all the others had defected to the New Republic.

    [​IMG]
     
  5. Jeff_Ferguson

    Jeff_Ferguson Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    May 15, 2006
    Pellaeon's an interesting case in the post-Bantam EU. Most NJO and LOTF authors tended to portray him as heroic, but his brief appearance in Destiny's Way went in very much the opposite direction, taking care to remind Han, Leia, and the reader how very Imperial he was. I think there's a lot more complexity behind the character in this era than people give him credit for, particularly in the Hand of Thrawn duology.

    Specter of the Past is very much Pellaeon's book. It could even be read as his "Hero's Journey," for lack of a better descriptor --- he's driven by the goal of uniting the Remnant behind him so that he can sue for peace, and he travels all over Remnant Space on a quest to do just that, encountering foes and resistance along the way. The interesting question here is whether or not Zahn is attempting to write him heroically. He's definitely a protagonist of the duology rather than an antagonist, but in a duology full of grey morality, that isn't enough to classify him as a hero. Look at Parck and Fel --- are they heroes or villains? Their quest to protect the galaxy from the threats in the Unknown Regions is portrayed as selfless and necessary, but their blind loyalty to Thrawn and their willingness to turn their fleet over to the Remnant and prolong the Galactic Civil War is something that heroes Luke and Mara know they have to fight against. And the New Republic itself isn't a shining example of fortitude; it almost breaks into a civil war.

    While Luke, Han, and Leia may be unequivocally heroes and Disra and Tierce may be unequivocally villains, the rest of the cast isn't so clean-cut. Zahn wasn't really trying so much to write a classic heroes-vs-villains story as he was exploring the idea that people can have different shades of morality, and that the end of one war and the beginning of another won't necessarily happen through your classic "good guys beat the bad guys" narrative. Heroes like Leia will have to be pragmatic and accept strange bedfellows in the service of a higher goal.

    Pellaeon makes no apology for what he and the Empire have done, and he's portrayed as very much still believing in the Empire and its method of rule. If we're meant to cheer for him in his quest, it's not because we're meant to see him as an upstanding moral example, but because we're familiar with him from Zahn's three previous books and we like him for the same reasons we liked Admiral Piett in Empire and wanted to see him return in Jedi. And because we know that the peace Pellaeon is seeking will also be good for our heroes and for the galaxy, even if his reasons for seeking it are practical ones that will serve the Remnant rather than selfless ones that he hopes will be good for galactic citizens everywhere.

    By the time we get to Dark Nest, Pellaeon is a clean-cut good guy serving as the Head of the Galactic Alliance Military. He's retired from the Remnant completely. Is this a place where his character deserved to end up, or was the NJO too apologist regarding him on his journey there? I'll probably have more to say about that later. But whatever happened to Pelly in the NJO, I don't think that Zahn saw him as a hero.
     
  6. Ghost

    Ghost Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Oct 13, 2003
    Does this mean Episode 9 ends with the wedding of Rey and Snoke?

    Will Rae Sloane return from exile to become leader of the Newer Republic?
     
  7. Charlemagne19

    Charlemagne19 Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Jul 30, 2000
    I'm inclined to think it's interesting how the Eight Moffs are the ones holding the bag at the end.

    Especially as the Empire ignored the Moffs for decades after Tarkin.
     
  8. Vialco

    Vialco Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Mar 6, 2007
    No. Poe Dameron for Supreme Chancellor of the Second Republic. Finn can be Grand General of the Republkc Military. And Rey can be the First of the New Jedi after Luke dies fighting Snoke.
     
  9. DarthKuriboh

    DarthKuriboh Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Aug 8, 2007


    You want a garbage man as general of the Republic military? Maybe a postman as head of intelligence, while you're at it?


    This is why the Empire should have won, even with despotic Palpatine and Vader both cast down... an ordered society works better and usually defends itself better (as long as it's not under direct mental control of one person like Palps) than the chaos and nonsense the weak, non-governmental new eu "Republic" does.
     
  10. DarthKuriboh

    DarthKuriboh Jedi Master star 3

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    Aug 8, 2007
    To me, Gilad was the best the Empire could be. Strong, disciplined, very well schooled in tactics and strategy (no, nobody wins every battle. Thrawn was the exception, not the rule.), and very devoted to the core ideals of the Empire.. peace, stability, and order. He's on record as stating he wants to leave the galaxy a more peaceful and orderly place than it was when he entered it, which is a good goal for anyone to have. Sure, some loudmouth troublemakers might have gotten a visit from stormies, but under Gilad and later Jag Fel, that basically stopped. He didn't even kill Quile, who he should have assassinated at the first opportunity. Same with Lacersen.
     
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  11. mnjedi

    mnjedi JCC Arena Game Host star 5 VIP - Game Host

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    Nov 4, 2012
    The problem IMO is that the NR is constantly written as absolutely inept and corrupt so our heroes have to fight the system. Heck even even in NU the opposition to losing the first NR election is a dual assassination attempt/bombing, and the NR government system seems to be set up intentionally by Mothma to be unable to accomplish anything.

    SO Democracy sucks, the alternatives suck more, what exactly are we supposed to do? I'd say trust in the force but the jedi put an imperial war criminal into the highest office in the galaxy and for some reason expected it to work out fine sooooo IDK.

    Just once I would like a SW story where the republic is actually functional and the democratic system works, just once.
     
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  12. Jeff_Ferguson

    Jeff_Ferguson Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    May 15, 2006
    Didn't Greyshade die on The Wheel four years before the New Republic even existed?
     
  13. Darth Invictus

    Darth Invictus Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Aug 8, 2016
    Are we talking about Legends Palleaon? If so then I'd say he was both pragmatic and astute. He knew that fighting the new republic on and on would have led to the inevitable conquest of Bastion. So he browbeated the moffs into accepting the peace treaty. From there he made it clear "if and when the new republic self destructs we'll be positioned to rise again." He was making this statement to moffs by the way.

    So he clearly believed in the empire. He may have not been a military genius like Thrawn or bold like Daala(during her best moments like when she gassed the warlords) but he understood reality and sought to accomadate the empire to that reality not some grandiose dream of reconquest, or the illusion that Palpatine or Thrawn might come back and save everything.

    Some of the other moffs and warlords would have kept on fighting until the liberation of the last Imperial held asteroid and the ideals of the empire would have died with them. Palleon chose to swallow his pride and got the moffs to do the same.

    And it was for the benefit of the empire...
     
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  14. Ackbar's Fishsticks

    Ackbar's Fishsticks Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Aug 25, 2013

    I found it interesting that in both the Hand of Judgment duology from the old EU, and in the nucanon novel that just came out, Zahn has main characters articulate clear and simple defenses of the Rebellion that we're clearly meant to take seriously.

    The author's reputation as an Empire fanboy is somewhat overdone. What he's good at is introducing shades of grey on both sides, which was frankly inevitable and going to happen at some point when expanding the universe. But I don't usually get the sense that he's confused over who the "good" and "bad" sides of the conflict are. He pretty consistently portrays the New Republic as a huge improvement over the Empire. And even at its least admirable moments, I'd say the New Republic was portrayed much better under him than it would be for most of Del Rey.
     
  15. GrandAdmiralJello

    GrandAdmiralJello Comms Admin ❉ Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque star 10 Staff Member Administrator

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    Nov 28, 2000
    I'm sure his gradually increasing power and assumption of the rank of "grand admiral" wasn't at all for his own benefit or pride...
     
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  16. Vialco

    Vialco Force Ghost star 5

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    Mar 6, 2007
    Yeah. Except the Empire lost. The Emperor was killed by his own apprentice. The flagship of the Imperial Fleet did a nosedive into the Death Star. Said Death Star exploded into cosmic dust. The Empire was a corrupt organization from the start. It was founded on treachery and innocent blood.
     
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  17. Ackbar's Fishsticks

    Ackbar's Fishsticks Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Aug 25, 2013
    I always wondered whether he was being sincere - or to what extent he was being sincere, and with who. Does he really believe that the Empire can/will rise again someday, if only it's allowed to survive long enough, and that his proposal is the best strategy to ensure that eventual victory? Or does he not believe a word of it, but say it anyway because he has to cast a (necessary and inevitable, in his eyes) capitulation to the New Republic in terms that the conservative, paranoid, anti-republican doucheocracy that is the Moff Council can accept? In other words, who is he really BSing, the New Republic or the Moff Council?
     
  18. Jeff_Ferguson

    Jeff_Ferguson Force Ghost star 5

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    May 15, 2006
    In 19 ABY he still believed in the idea of a Galactic Empire, and he knew that a peace treaty would allow the Remnant to hold onto their territory, whereas continuing to fight would cause them to lose the eight sectors they still had. I don't think he had a strategy at the time for rising again beyond holding onto their territory, allowing any systems who wanted to rejoin the Remnant to do so, and then watching and waiting for the New Republic to fail. That strategy ultimately paid off, as the Remnant's size had grown from this to this by 41 ABY, and after the end of the Second Galactic Civil War the Remnant's influence grew since "people across the galaxy appreciated its stability following several tumultuous years of Galactic Alliance rule" (something I wrote on the Wook based on info from the Fate of the Jedi Dramatis Personae). Then the Victory Without War program swayed a lot of the galaxy back into the Remnant's fold, and after it became the Felpire, the Empire finally rose again. 19 ABY Pelly would have been thrilled if he could have seen that, but 41 ABY Pelly likely would have felt differently. More on that later.
     
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  19. GrandAdmiralJello

    GrandAdmiralJello Comms Admin ❉ Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque star 10 Staff Member Administrator

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    Nov 28, 2000
    That's a little unfair.
     
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  20. comradepitrovsky

    comradepitrovsky Jedi Master star 4

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    Jan 5, 2017
    I mean, Empire Day is sorta literally marked by a immense act of treachery. We've all seen ROTS.
     
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  21. GrandAdmiralJello

    GrandAdmiralJello Comms Admin ❉ Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque star 10 Staff Member Administrator

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    Nov 28, 2000
    Yes, we all saw the Jedi attempt to overthrow the government.


    Missa ab iPhona mea est.
     
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  22. comradepitrovsky

    comradepitrovsky Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 5, 2017
    Those perfidious rimkin, amirite?

    Back on topic, the other thing with Pelly is sorta the same issue I have with late EU Zahn. Basically, it forgets that the Empire is supposed to be villainous. Morality of the Remnant aside, the Empire is evil -- I don't think that really can be argued against. Star Wars is a very manichean franchise, and misunderstandings in the EU aside, it's clearly designed to have villains and heroes that are very clear-cut. Pellaeon is a character that has led to people forgetting that in the grand scheme of the EU. He's a character that looked at the destruction of Alderaan and the host of other Imperial atrocities and decided that rather then pulling a Rand Ecliptic that that regime was one he wanted to support, and since he's a well-written POV he's led a portion of the fandom into doing the same. And while I do enjoy playing the part of a Imperial patriot, and it's unquestionable that they have snazzier uniforms, that's not something that people should really buy into. Keeping that manicheaism even while they tell darker stories is one of the better parts of the NEU, I find.
     
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  23. Charlemagne19

    Charlemagne19 Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Jul 30, 2000
    I believe the reason the Empire lost in Legends was due to the Civil War that the New Republic won by default. As soon as Coruscant was taken by the New Republic, the majority of people decided the Empire was defeated.

    In canon, it appears the Empire was FAR less popular with far less widespread report. We know what the common Imperial soldier thinks of the Empire with Ciena Ree seemingly thinking it was a lesser evil at best.

    As such, when the Emperor died, the galaxy seemed alright with letting the Empire die. Saddam Hussein and Lenin statues coming down. The fanatics were not 100% of the Empire but a tiny faction that fled to the UR.

    I actually like the canon more because I don't GET the reasoning behind Legends Empire's soldiers. What are they fighting for? The Imperial Japanese didn't have die-hards that fanatically dedicated to another man's excuse for seizing power.

    What did Pellaeon really think he was accomplishing and why?
     
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  24. Jeff_Ferguson

    Jeff_Ferguson Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    May 15, 2006
    He's definitely a character toward whom authors became more sympathetic as time went on. In Hand of Thrawn he's still very Imperial and hoping that the Empire will rise again, and In Starfighters of Adumar his Empire (the Remnant) is ordering Rogriss to attack and conquer Adumar if the planet chooses to join the New Republic. But by the time Legacy of the Force rolls along, he's old and tired and sick of the moffs and much more relaxed about decorum and very likeable, and then Karen Traviss writes that version of him into a book set during the Clone Wars for some reason and suddenly we're meant to believe that he's been like that all his life? Yeah, nah.
     
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  25. Vthuil

    Vthuil Force Ghost star 5

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    Jan 3, 2013
    Which sort of brings us back full circle to the thread this spun off of, since that was Thrawn's whole problem too.
     
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