A/V Episode VIII - THE LAST JEDI - Official Movie Discussion Thread

I'm hoping Snoke is an ancient Jedi or unrelated to Palpatine. The new generation should deal with new threats.

As for Kylo Ren, he's not a Sith so why would he care about Vader turning to the Light?

He should have a philosophy different than the Sith.

Perhaps "Order at all costs."

 

Jacen was never meant to be a serviceable villain. He was just the tool of Lumiya's revenge against Luke Skywalker. Once Lumiya was dead, it was only a question of how much damage Darth Puppet could do with his strings cut before someone smashed him to pieces.

Seriously, everything went wrong for the so-called Darth Caedus once Lumiya was gone. He lost at Kashyyyk and kept losing right up until Shedu Maad where he got too injured to retreat successfully.

 

If this is a totally new threat, then they shouldn't have called it Episode VII, Episode VIII, Episode IX, or the Sequel Trilogy.

The new generation either has to overcome Snoke as the last remnant of Sidious/Vader, or the root cause of Sidious/Vader

He should since they say he isn't Sith, but doesn't so far.

 

Yeah, this is what I was getting at before about "Episode I of the Second Saga". I actually would not object to these films just being presented to us as a separate, new story taking place decades after the end of the existing I-VI Saga. But if they're selling it as a continuation, then there needs to be some continuity - and while the First Order may be a descendant of the Empire, if its Supreme Leader himself just materialized out of thin air sometime after ROTJ with no connection to anything we've seen previously (like, not even just a former Imperial officer or Inquisitor), that's pretty damn discontinuous.

 

Come on now. Kids are reading this thread.

 

That's not fair. They aren't regressed, they took different character paths.

 

I am sorry, but Luke going into hiding after his first attempt to rebuild the Jedi fails, Leia being the only who took the threat of the remnants of the Empire, especially the First Order, seriously, and Han basically being ANH Han again is the definition of regression.

 

I feel like people saying Han "regressed" in TFA are taking a pretty superficial view... But as far as the original context goes, it's actually kind of a moot point, because you can point to lots of characterization that I genuinely don't like (such as the somewhat caricatured Big 3 in Marvel's main series) and it's still a heck of a lot closer to recognizable than, say, Luke as Mr. "compassion is for those who deserve it" - and, just as egregiously, the narrative vindicating him.

 

Zeta he didn't go into hiding. Why? Because we KNOW they didn't have a reason for it. We won't know until Episode VIII. Luke could have begun a Quinzos.

 

"Compassion is for those who deserve it. The Emperor's chief minion deserves it. My corrupted and misguided nephew doesn't."

What a crappy book.

 

OT ends with:
OB1 - dead
Yoda - dead
Darth Skywalker - dead
Emperor Sidious - dead

So why is the ST ending with Luke, Leia and Han dead anti-SW legacy?

What if Luke left the "skirmish" because Snoke hinted he'd kill Ben if Luke didn't leave? Luke felt there was still good in Ben.

OB1 and Yoda's stewardship of the Republic left it in rubble after 1,000 years of peace and prosperity. They were part of the problem, but not the source. Han and Leia may have been part of the problem with Ben, but perhaps not the source. Also, Skywalker DNA.

I have quite a few hangups with the ST, but I have to also admit this to myself: Pre-TFA, I wasn't sure how they were going to keep it connected while at the same time not undo a major theme of 1 to 6. With the EU, the outside threat always seemed the best angle. And as with anything in fiction, the actual execution almost always outweighs the larger theme. So even ideas I'd think would be *lame* could end up being the greatest reward with great execution.

The biggest problem is of course the revelations that JJ Abrams did, in fact, go to the mystery box well once again. Fortunately, he's not finishing it. Unfortunately, he has tied the hands of the writers/directors of 8 and 9 with things they might have set up better for "their" ending. There were quite a few lost opportunities in TFA.

Loved the Rogue One presentation of good and evil not being so straightforward, so hopefully that creeps into 8 and 9.

 

BTW, I do want to take a moment to apologize for helping start up another round of LOTF-bashing here. I don't need to make it clear that I mean it, but it's certainly a whole lot less on-topic than discussing Snoke was.

 

TFA (as much as I love it) gave us bum Han, renegade Leia, their screwed-up heartless son, and angsty hopeless Luke and his dead school. We don't want them responsible. And most likely, I'd bet George Lucas himself wouldn't either.

Presumably Snoke is to blame. Ok. How? How is he so powerful he brought the Big 3 (and their next gen) to their knees? Cuz it's either his fault or theirs -- Leia says it's him, bet then, out how did he outplay them?

If anything, I want them to make us hate Snoke (even if I can't take that name seriously). I don't want a villain I can respect, like Palps. I want a villain to really despise. I don't really hate Kylo -- he's too dumb to hate. I want to hate Snoke because he destroyed the OT's happy ending. I already sort of hate him for that, but I want him on screen so I can have my Two Minutes Hate -- no wait. More than 2. Give the guy his 15. I want him to go out like one of those baddies who make the audience cheer wildly. Like Mrs. Weasley vs Bellatrix. BAM!

 

Barriss_Coffee: Yeah, that's another reason why Snoke being a villain-shaped hole is unsatisfying and doesn't really match the ESB Palpatine comparison.

Well, it's not just simply Saw's rebels=bad other rebels=good - there was also everything with Draven and Cassian's orders and their whole cold-blooded attitude towards intelligence operations. (Not that I disagree with you overall; it's just that I rather liked the element of them not just shunting all of the moral compromises in a war story off onto one designated 'antihero' group.)

 

And that is what makes it even worse.

 

One thing I was hoping and which was alluded to in the novelization was treating Snoke as Sauron rather than Morgoth. The idea Snoke came to Luke, Han, and Leia as a friend as well as a Jedi Master or perhaps a redeemed Dark Sider before settling down with them to build the First Order from within the Republic. It might even have been the case Snoke was actually redeemed by Luke but fell back into Old Habits.

 

Snoke: Did you ever hear the tragedy of Darth Vader?

 

So Snoke came to Luke as Annatar the Fair and turned out to be Sauron the Abhorred in a pleasant disguise? Well we know that Luke was desperately seeking Jedi Lore. So Snoke would indeed have something to offer to get him in the door.

 

If they actually wanted to show our heroes having believable weaknesses rather than make up them, I think you could play with the fact Luke's belief in redemption is both his greatest strength and something which Snoke could have used against him. Even if he was an old Dark Side Wizard reeking of evil, were Snoke to present himself to the Last Jedi as someone seeking redemption, he'd probably be accepted as an old friend and brother.

It's also my theory Kylo Ren's Vader worship was in part due to the fact Luke probably didn't condemn Vader as much as he might have given his Prodigal Son-like view of the Force.

Which isnt' WRONG mind you but something someone like Snoke could use or misinterpret for his own ends.

 

This is the kind of stuff I can get behind. I hope at least​ that The Last Jedi helps to fill some of the gaps we have in the story to help get us more used to the aesthetics of this new expanded GFFA.

Sent from Hell--depending on whether or not it exists.

 

What if Snoke presented himself as a Republic era Jedi that went into hiding like Yoda and Ben? Snoke offered to help Luke make the connection to that era. Sometimes Luke even defers to Snoke on some of the teachings. Meanwhile, Snoke was just using the Jedi Temple to build his Knights of Ren waiting for the moment to flip the switch. First task: Kill any Jedi that couldn't accept the "larger view" of the force.

Maybe Snoke even would privately steer Luke away from talking too much about Vader and the Sith, so he could then tell the likes of Ben Solo one on one with the framing that Luke was keeping it from him. Maybe even hint that he had secret talks with Vader about overthrowing the Emperor and put things right, until Luke came along and ruined those plans. Now we just have endless chaos, thanks to Luke.

Then Ben sits at the table and hears Han and Leia laughing about that time they saved Luke over the Death Star, Hoth and Bespin. They are doing it in a "we can laugh about it now" way, but Ben is just hearing how incompetent Luke was.