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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

Lit Do you like the new canon?

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Lord Sith Harloxzz, Sep 8, 2017.

  1. SpecForce Trooper

    SpecForce Trooper Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 19, 2016
    It is a cool concept, but the First Order destroys the stakes. The heroes have already beat the Empire. We know they can do it again. Even worse, the First Order seems less competent than the previous empire. It removes the tension. With the Yuuzhan Vong they were new and we didn't know what they were capable of. What we don't know is what's scary. And we definitely know the First Order. All that it changes from it's predecessor is that it is functionally worse. It's plenty interesting, but it isn't intimidating.

    I don't care about the logic of Rey's victory. From a plot standpoint it makes a joke out of the trilogy's villain. Imagine if Luke beat Vader in a saber fight in ANH. Why should we fear for Luke in ESB if he's already overcome the odds?
     
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  2. comradepitrovsky

    comradepitrovsky Jedi Master star 4

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    Jan 5, 2017
    But Kylo is clearly not the main villain?
     
  3. redxavier

    redxavier Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Jan 23, 2003
    Rey defeating Kylo hardly makes a joke out of the latter; that's viewing it from a very negative and cynical perspective. Do you think less of Vader when Han Solo shows up and he goes 'what?!' before being shot at and sent spinning? When you're watching ROTJ are you really fearing for the heroes when at this point they've already escaped from Vader three times?
     
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  4. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    The stormtroopers getting defeated by Ewoks was kind of a joke, but it was a good one.

    Rey defeating Kylo only makes a joke out of Kylo in that maybe if he wasn't so damn emotional all the time, he could fight better.
     
  5. Coherent Axe

    Coherent Axe Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Dec 20, 2016
    The difference is, Kylo's right at the start of his villain's journey. His big, decisive act was killing Han (which left him discombobulated enough for Rey to knock him about) but if he sticks with the dark side he'll grow stronger from there. Snoke even says it's time to complete his training, compared with Vader considering himself a Master in ANH (and even, really, in ROTS).

    Sure he got beat, but so did Vader in ANH. Vader came back obsessed with correcting that mistake and plunging into a head-hunt for the Rebels; Kylo is more unpredictable, which makes him scary, I feel. Any time he's in a room with a hero character (especially, say, Leia) there's every chance he might suddenly snap and pull out his lightsaber in a fit of rage.
     
  6. La Calavera

    La Calavera Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2015
    A villain being side hit by wingman that got shot from a rear attack that nobody saw it coming and was played as “protagonist’ luck”, is not the same as a villain being consistently owned by the protagonist in all their one-on-once confrontations. Rey beat Kylo because she was stronger in the Force than him – that was highlighted in the interrogation scene, in the lightsaber pull that almost decapitated Kylo, and in the final fight that only turned the tables when Rey decided to close her eyes and use the Force.

    And if we all can agree that Kylo was consciously portrayed as "not like Vader", or being a “work in progress”, then don’t be too surprised that audiences viewed him as a joke in result, since, you know, it was in the narrative. Like the when Poe made fun of his talking behind the mask, or when the stormtroopers comically turned around when they heard Kylo having another of his temper tantrums. Had Vader’s Force-choking habits been portrayed as something to laugh about, or had he been shown to be defeated every time he went against a Force user, people probably wouldn’t have constructed this powerhouse image of him in their heads. The inherent comedy in Kylo Ren and his constant inability to not get defeated by a character who just learned the Force that day, does make for an entirely different interpretation.

    Because heroes escape villains all the time – it’s the why and how the villain-hero narrative is written that makes some villains still look like tough opponents and other villains look pathetic.

    Which is not to say that the latter makes for a crappy villain automatically. It ultimately depends on the writing. Joffrey Baratheon was also portrayed as a weak, manchild, spoiled and pathetic boy who couldn’t fight or lead an army to war, but he still managed to be terrifying and (imo) the best GOT villain ever.

    To me, the main reason why TFA villains come across as… well, inefficient (?) or anticlimactic (?) or just meh, it’s because their defeats were not earned. Starkiller base is never mentioned until it pops out of the blue and get unceremoniously defeated by a band of characters that were not taking that seriously either. Rey spends the entire movie owning everyone’s asses and hardly struggles for anything, so when she defeats the villain for the second or third time in the same movie, it feels more like an empty victory. And while I do think there was a satisfaction in seeing Kylo Ren defeated, that satisfaction came solely from the fact that he was a spoiled punk who killed Han Solo, not from Rey’s (barely existent) character progression. But it wasn’t the same as watching Luke blowing up the Death Star after an entire movie telling me he was a loser farmboy and an entire sequence of people dying in his place one by one so that he could get that one shot. Or seeing Luke defeating Vader after Vader wrecked him in the previous movie. Or seeing the rebels going through hell before they manage to delievered the DS plans to Leia, in a movie that for a moment made me wonder if they were ever able to pull that off.

    And it’s one of the reasons why I left TFA feeling like it ended in a rather “meh” way. The narrative of a loser villain (this time) could’ve still earned a very exciting ending, but it didn’t. None of what happened in the end felt truly earned.
     
  7. The Positive Fan

    The Positive Fan Force Ghost star 4

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    Jan 19, 2015
    I'll leave it to others to decide whether or not Point_Of_View is trolling, but I will say that his drive-by criticisms are prompting some fascinating defenses of TFA. Particularly from Coherent Axe and Charlemagne19, the idea that TFA itself is well-aware of its own echoes and acknowledges them as themes of the film - Rey growing up literally and figuratively in the "shadow of giants" and so forth. Great stuff, ideas that will add even more texture to the film the next time I watch it.
     
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  8. Charlemagne19

    Charlemagne19 Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Jul 30, 2000
    Kylo Ren isn't meant to be scary. He's a FAILURE at being Vader but not because he's not powerful or dangerous. It's because being Vader is, itself, a stupid goal.

    This is something which fans keep running into because he's NOT just the substitute of Vader. Snoke is meant to be the ultimate villain of the trilogy and we never knew Palpatine was going to be the Main Bad in ANH. Kylo Ren is meant to be the main villain's henchman and nothing more. While he lost in the first battle with Rey, I suspect we're going to see him tear up the good guys in episode 2...or maybe he won't.

    Maybe he'll already start his turn after he realizes he murdered his father.

    But NO ONE in the Resistance will want his help.

    They could go a number of ways with it.
     
  9. Pacified_llama

    Pacified_llama Jedi Master star 3

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    Sep 15, 2017
    The potential to develop the Tragic theme is exciting. I have always gotten the impression of pseudo-Sithness from the antagonists in TFA - almost as if, as Charlemagne19 implies, we are examining a weak or failed attempt to restore the philosophy of the Sith, to restore what Vader, abstractly and physically, brought about in his command of the Dark Side.

    I'd call you out on the ANH reference, if for no other reason than to allude to some more nuanced similarities. ANH Vader was, with minor exceptions, henchman - or at least distinct from the "Imperial" establishment, for which Tarkin served as principal antagonist. It was not until TESB that his greater role and philosophies were laid out. If anything, he is somewhat aloof in ANH. An unknown much like Ren in his ideology and underpinning motivation. However, these are not weaknesses, as I see it - they highlight if anything the cyclical nature of the character struggles among those of the Sith and Jedi.

    To call Ren scary is perhaps to focus too much on the emotion of the visual element, as opposed to the insight which his behavior offers the viewer. The unpredictability of the Sith doctrine, or of any Dark-sided doctrine, is one that was never truly elaborated in the original six films, and I for one am grateful to see the ST develop more capricious themes - the idea that emotion/passion shall become uncontrollable, that it will dominate you and cause destruction without and within. This is an intriguing counterpoint to what we have seen before, that which we are well familiar with. Namely knowing the Dark Side as a focused avenue for greed, vengeance and hatred, which is what Vader, at his core, was all about.

    On a related but slightly different matter - I am extremely prejudiced when it comes to evaluating the worth of the good guys' victory in TFA, I can't help but judge things on a more surface/visual level - sometimes I don't want to dwell on the ontology behind the villains, or any of the deep rooted themes at work. SW is after all, as much a matter of entertainment. And that's where TFA is a little clumsy I think - the villains, Snoke and the First Order, visually come across as a caricature to me, almost dense - the dialogue just doesn't seem very deft and doesn't make us believe they were even capable of constructing such a potent weapon as Starkiller Base. I didn't really get this in the OT or even the PT, because the historical development (i.e. telling us backstory, giving us clues as to why they might behave that way) was supporting the cliché - the writing was also somewhat different in style.

    So on the one hand, amazing thematic development under the surface if we're willing to explore it - but on the other hand, some narrative and visual presentation that make finding those themes more difficult, and make it a little harder for us to suspend disbelief.
     
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  10. Charlemagne19

    Charlemagne19 Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Jul 30, 2000
    I think the visual storytelling of Starkiller Base, Kylo Ren, and General Hux are magnificent for how much they tell us without exposition. JJ Abrams and Kasdan may both have flaws but we actually get a bunch of information about the First Order from the way they operate.

    1. Starkiller Base is a poor man's Death Star in the literal sense that they built it into the side of a planet. It's physically much larger than the Death Star but 99.99 of the thing is constructed by nature rather than the First Order. The First Order can't afford to build an actual Death Star so they built one on the cheap ala the Hutts by just putting a big weapon in the middle of a habital planet.

    2. Kylo Ren is deliberately trying to be Darth Vader but he's actually just play acting as he's a handsome man underneath and he doesn't have any of the REASONS why Darth Vader wore his armor. He's costume playing and prone to epic tantrems rather than actually killing subordinates or relishing in his hatred.

    3. General Hux is a child wearing his father's uniform (literally as find out later) in that he is a man who talks a good game in front of speeches but he's never seen any actual battle and he's all rhetoric rather than actual military strategy.

    They're dangerous idealogues and murderous terrorists but they're NOT a professional military.

    It's why I think they make a better analogue for modern day villains than 1970s. They're a bunch of child soldiers serving Snoke who is the Osama Bin Ladin/ISIS chief figure of the organization that reassures them zeal will win the day.
     
  11. Point_Of_View

    Point_Of_View Jedi Knight star 2

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    May 23, 2017
    But the question you have to ask is that if the movie is self aware, does that make it a better movie if the content is the same either way?
    Does it exuse not really having its own plot/leaning exremely shamelessly on many many elements of ANH?
     
  12. Coherent Axe

    Coherent Axe Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Dec 20, 2016
    You could probably level the same at... well, any of the other entries in the series. Star Wars is pretty shameless in what it pays homage to, including direct references to The Searchers and Hidden Fortress, and structures specifically borrowed from Seven Samurai and The Hero's Journey. The sail barge assault in Jedi is a clear reference to the John Carter stories, and look at the Blade Runner-esque Coruscant in Clones... Star Wars is generally always pretty self-aware about what it's paying tribute to/stealing.

    But TFA especially had a great weight of expectation on its shoulders, not only as a follow-up to a great set of classic films (and essentially an apology for a less-great set as well) but also as a new era without George Lucas at the helm. It was kinda necessarily reactionary to what came before, if only to lay out its stall as if to say "this is what we're going to be doing." Doesn't mean playing it all earnestly would have made it better or worse, but I find the self-awareness adds a nice layer of meaning beneath a lot of the film -- which sadly is missing a lot of depth otherwise, so at least it's about something beneath the surface.
     
  13. Point_Of_View

    Point_Of_View Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    May 23, 2017
    No, you couldn't.
    Take TPM vs TFA.
    One has a fight against a droid control ship. One has a literal superlaser planetoid trench run.
    Both are parrallels to ANH.
    But only one is a straight up COPY.

    ****
     
  14. Charlemagne19

    Charlemagne19 Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Jul 30, 2000
    Yes and The Force Awakens and yet undoubtedly the superior film in all respects.

    Better characters
    Better acting
    Better action
    More meaningful moments

    Basically, you put down a movie a lot of us like and are surprised when we talk it back up.

    Sorry dude.
     
  15. SpecForce Trooper

    SpecForce Trooper Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 19, 2016
    Starkiller Base was not only unoriginal, but also crammed into the movie. From the start of the film it is about finding Luke. Then out of nowhere SKB is introduced and now that is suddenly the center of the film. By the time they finally beat it they have to rush to wrap up the Luke plot. It's really just a mess. They could've made it into two movies easily. It's like RotJ but if the Jabba plot was crammed into the middle and Jabba got no mentions until the start of the second act.
     
  16. Charlemagne19

    Charlemagne19 Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Jul 30, 2000
    Mind you, it did nicely remove the New Republic off the board. Honestly, my big problem wasn't that Starkiller Base existed but that it was destroyed.
     
  17. Pacified_llama

    Pacified_llama Jedi Master star 3

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    Sep 15, 2017
    Have faith that TLJ will put things in their proper place.

    TFA got people interested again, it kick started some renewed, widespread enthusiasm in SW that was much needed. Now they've got it - we're all eyes and ears for something truly creative in TLJ.

    And let's not neglect the rest of the new canon - because there really is, already, a considerable body of it.
    I am mixed about The Force Awakens - yet I have found some of the arguments above to be engaging and well-argued that I am revaluing my opinion of it, for the better. And that's great.
     
  18. SpecForce Trooper

    SpecForce Trooper Jedi Master star 4

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    Jun 19, 2016
    Charlemagne19
    But wouldn't it be so much better if the NR was destroyed in the second movie? Then we would care. By the time Coruscant Hosnian Prime goes boom why should we care? We only get vague mentions of it prior. A hypothetical TFA where it's just the FO and Resistance racing to find Luke would still work with the NR around. Then comes the second movie where their superweapon is unveiled and they destroy the NR. That would be truly shocking.
     
  19. Point_Of_View

    Point_Of_View Jedi Knight star 2

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    May 23, 2017
    Are you? Are you truly sorry?
     
  20. The Positive Fan

    The Positive Fan Force Ghost star 4

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    Jan 19, 2015
    That's pretty much exactly what I meant by "more texture." Yes, having more of that thematic material to consider does in fact make it an even better movie.
     
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  21. Pacified_llama

    Pacified_llama Jedi Master star 3

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    Sep 15, 2017
    Apologies that I cut in on this one - I know you've addressed it straight to Charlemagne19

    I'd note that you are criticizing the cinematic presentation - i.e. the film on its own merits. Which I think we've been lacking in this thread, so I agree with you entirely.
    But if this is an argument against the canon as a whole, then it probably ought to consider the development of the New Republic etc. as enshrined in any novels material etc.

    'Shock value' is somewhat less important to character development and theme, wouldn't you say? And I would argue those elements were present in TFA - in fact, basic destructive events lost screen time in favor of greater moments of character, whether with Rey, with Ren etc. Again, perhaps it's coming back to my earlier remark about not wanting to complicate the film with nuance of theme, at the expense of being able to enjoy it as a piece of fictitious entertainment.
     
  22. Point_Of_View

    Point_Of_View Jedi Knight star 2

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    May 23, 2017
    In what way? If the film is the same either way, what is the improvement?
     
  23. The Positive Fan

    The Positive Fan Force Ghost star 4

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    Jan 19, 2015
    Come on, now. You're a Star Wars fan, and at least as intelligent as anyone else posting here. You're well aware of how additional layers of thematic meaning make any film richer, more rewarding, and simply better. That doesn't require explanation.
     
  24. Pacified_llama

    Pacified_llama Jedi Master star 3

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    Sep 15, 2017
    He is perhaps referring to reward through simpler entertainment, in other words, TFA failed basically, so it inherently fails complexly - but the argument being made is rather frustratingly unclear.
     
  25. Jedi Ben

    Jedi Ben Chosen One star 9

    Registered:
    Jul 19, 1999
    I once thought as you did, but my optimism was misplaced in this particular case.
     
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