PT Are the Jedi corrupt?

Moving back to the idea of corruption - you gotta define it carefully and accurately in the context first.

Corruption is quite a frustrating term. You must assume, by definition, that a set of morals or principles have been violated, and hence 'corrupted' by the agent. Corruption is not merely a lack of moral goodness. Otherwise, we may as well use the term, "The Jedi are bad" which most people would call nonsense in this context.

So what were the principles that the Jedi might have 'corrupted'? Violation of their own doctrine? Many of their actions justly uphold their key aim to promote peace and justice in the galaxy. For example, while they wage war as generals against the Separatists, they do so because it is the only option available to them to prevent the implosion of the republic and an end to the values it represents. The same can be said of their choice to spy on Palpatine - it is a means to a good end. So the corruption would seem routed, therefore, not in their motives but in their methodology. In other words, can a Jedi stay true to the path while engaging in such violent and/or deceptive practices and methods? It depends, of course, on one's interpretation of the Jedi Code.

A particularly persuasive case for Jedi corruption might be their increasing willingness to succumb to a belief in consequentialism - that 'the ends justify the means'. This is a key tenet of the Sith philosophy, it has no place in Jedi teachings, beyond that of utilitarianism - i.e. helping the greatest number for the greatest benefit of the galaxy. Jedi work on the basis of deontological ethics, meaning they are governed by a moral rule book - the opposite is the Dark Siders who tear up the rule book in a seductive free-for-all.

I wouldn't argue that the Jedi are complacent, either. It has been suggested that the Jedi has a sort of smug idleness, which isn't really the case. While the Jedi were certainly arrogant and dogmatic, they were certainly no self-satisfied and idle - they were decisive to the point of being combative - fighting in the Clone Wars made it unavoidable. When Mace confronts Palpatine in ROTS with a cadre of the best Jedi masters, this is not complacency, but a bold, corrective effort. The Jedi code teaches constant reflection and union with the Force - the idea of being complacent and self-satisfied is rather less a Jedi belief and rather more a Sith idea - Palpatine, for example, demonstrates immense complacency in ROTJ which ultimately inspires his downfall.

It is also wise, I think, to be reserved in labeling the Jedi as 'corrupt' because, like it or not, it serves as one of the important excuses which Palpatine uses to justify wiping them all out. It is much like asserting that the Jedi were responsible for their own downfall and destruction. That can be argued well, but it does fly in the face of the characterisation of Jedi as essentially 'good' people - it also compromises some of the Tragedy.

 

Gee, idunno, the same way the Sith found Padme on Tatooine. The same way they found out he was married. The same way they found out he was having nightmares about his wife's impending death. Maybe that way.

 

Good post, but I think you can argue that the Jedi in some ways invited their own downfall without also labeling them as Bad People who were deserving of it. It's a tragedy. It's like a guy who fails to look both ways before crossing the street and gets nailed by a bus that couldn't stop in time. The guy didn't deserve it, and he's not a bad person--but shouldn't he have looked both ways? Sometimes you forget to look both ways, because you're human. But the bus doesn't care; it's going to slam into you anyway.

Explain. They found the Queen on Tatooine because they established a connection trace when someone responded to their fake message. We don't know exactly how they found out Anakin was married, but it was probably a combination of deduction and intuition; it wasn't exactly a secret that Anakin and Padme had feelings for one another, it was just something the Jedi closest to Anakin willfully ignored. I'm also sure Palpatine could sense Anakin's feelings and emotions, but that's something you can only do when you already have a relationship with someone.

So the Sith would have found a no-name slave working in a junk shop on Tatooine by....establishing a connection trace? Orrrrr they would have found him by...observing him and putting two and two together, even though they'd have no idea where he was or possibly that he even existed?

 

Well, you just put it pretty well there yourself; the Sith had pretty extensive abilities when it came to tracking, investigating, intuition and exploiting relationships. By the time of his discovery both Dooku and Palpatine were well aware of his existence. Regardless if the Jedi sent him back to live as a slave with his mother, or tried to relocate them to another system, the Sith would likely have found him.

 

Not through the Force.

That's from sensing thoughts which only really works in close.

No, if an connection trace was established, he would have landed right on top of them instead of on the other side of Mos Espa. And he wouldn't need a trio of probes to find them. A trace can be done to a planet, but a connection trace zeros in on the precise location.

"Your thoughts betray you. Your feelings for them are quite clear."

Being a Sith would be fairly easy as it is for a Jedi.

Right. Palpatine knows about Anakin because of his feats at Naboo. Before then, he wouldn't know.

Only if he was sent back after the Battle of Naboo, when his actions are known. If it was before then, he'd still be unknown to Palpatine and Dooku.

 

The Sith could've found him, if they'd known there was someone there to find. That's one reason why it was decided it was safe to leave Luke with Uncle Owenb & Aunt Beru on Tatooine. Why would the Sith look for someone who had died before he was ever born? So, if Ani had never left Tatooine and had never made contact with the Jedi, the Sith wouldn't have ever known he even existed. About all they'd have to go on was, maybe, somebody in some bar somewhere saying, "You know, on Tatooine, I saw some kid drive in a podrace. Darn, he was good. Anyway..."

 

It's worth clearing up this issue of how Anakin could possibly have been found by the Sith on Tatooine.

Remember, Palpatine doesn't realise the significance of Anakin until he is explicitly told by Dooku -

"But something else has occurred."Dooku chose his next words carefully. “Qui-Gon returned from Tatooine with a former slave boy. According to the boy’s mother, the boy had no father.”​

​

"A clone?" Palpatine asked uncertainly.​

​

“Not a clone,” Dooku said. “Perhaps conceived by the Force. As Qui-Gon believes.”​

​

“Does this have something to do with the prophecy you spoke of?”​

​

“Everything. Qui-Gon believes that the boy—Anakin is his name—stands at the center of a vergence in the Force, and believes further that his finding him was the will of the Force. Blood tests were apparently performed, and the boy’s concentration of midi-chlorians is unprecedented.”​

​

“Do you believe that he is the prophesied one?”​

​

“The Chosen One,” Dooku amended. “No. But Qui-Gon accepts it as fact, and the Council is willing to have him tested.”​

​

“What is known about this Anakin?”​

​

“Very little, except for the fact that he was born into slavery nine years ago and was, until recently, along with his mother, the property of Gardulla the Hutt, then a Toydarian junk dealer.” Dooku smirked. “Also that he won the Boonta Eve Classic Podrace.”​

​

Palpatine had stopped listening. Nine years old … Conceived by the Force … Is it possible … His thoughts rewound at frantic speed: to the landing platform on which he and Valorum had welcomed Amidala and her group. Actually not Amidala, but one of her look-alikes. But the sandy-haired boy, this Anakin, swathed in filthy clothing, had been there, along with a Gungan and the two Jedi. Anakin had spent the night in a tiny room in his apartment suite.​

​

And I sensed nothing about him.​

​

“Qui-Gon is rash,” Dooku was saying. “Despite his fixation with the living Force, he demonstrates his own contradictions by being a true believer in the prophecy—a foretelling more in line with the unifying Force.”​

​

“Nine years old,” Palpatine said when he could. “Surely too old to be trained.”​

​

“If the Council shows any sense.”​

​

“And what will become of the boy then?”​

​

Dooku’s shoulders heaved. “Though no longer a slave, he will probably be sent to rejoin his mother on Tatooine.” (Darth Plagueis)​

-

Later, Palpatine tells Plagueis of this discovery, and he is shocked, because he believes his experiment to create life through manipulating the midichlorians might have been successful after all. So he resigns to kill Qui-Gon to ensure he is not trained by the Jedi. Palpatine ends up having other plans of course:

​

“It’s not for you to decide your destiny, Anakin,” Obi-Wan said. “The Force will guide you.”​

​

Palpatine smiled inwardly. Guide you to me, young Skywalker.​

​

Dooku had talent, and could be a powerful placeholder. But this seemingly guiltless pleasant-faced boy, this Forceful boy, was the one he would take as his apprentice, and use to execute the final stage of the Grand Plan. Let Obi-Wan instruct him in the ways of the Force, and let Skywalker grow embittered over the next decade as his mother aged in slavery, the galaxy deteriorated around him, and his fellow Jedi fell to inextricable conflicts. He was too young to be trained in the ways of the Sith, in any case, but he was the perfect age to bond with a father figure who would listen to all his troubles and coax him inexorably over to the dark side.​

 

That's not exactly how it goes - he's more panicky that the Force has "struck back"


Ignoring the reactions of apprehensive residents and wary security personnel, Plagueis hastened along a plush corridor in 500 Republica toward Palpatine's suite of crimson rooms. He had planned to be at the Senate Building to hear Amidala's call for a vote of no-confidence in Valorum, which would strike the first death knell for the Republic. At the last moment, however, Palpatine had contacted him to recount a conversation he had had with Dooku. The fact that Qui-Gon Jinn had identified Maul as a Sith was to be expected; but Dooku's news about a human boy at the center of a vergence in the Force had come as a shock. More, Qui-Gon saw the boy as the Jedi's Chosen One!
He had to see this Anakin Skywalker for himself; had to sense him for himself. He had to know if the Force had struck back again, nine years earlier, by conceiving a human being to restore balance to the galaxy.
Plagueis came to a halt at the entry to Palpatine's apartment. Eventually, one of Queen Amidala's near-identical handmaidens came to the door, a vision in a dark cowled robe. Her eyes fixed on the breath mask.
"I'm sorry, sir," she said. "Senator Palpatine is not here.
"I know," Plagueis said. "I'm here to speak with the guest of the Senator. A young human boy."
Her eyes remained glued on the mask. "I'm not permitted—"
Damask motioned swiftly with his left hand, compelling her to answer. "You have my permission to speak."
"I have your permission," she said in a distracted voice.
"Now where is the boy?"
"Anakin, you mean."
"Anakin, yes," he said in a rush. "He's the one. Fetch him—now!"
"You just missed him, sir," the handmaiden said.
Plagueis peered past her into Palpatine's suite. "Missed him?" He straightened in anger. "Where is he?"
"Jedi Master Qui-Gon Jinn came to collect him, sir. I suspect that you can find him at the Jedi Temple."
Plagueis fell back a step, his thoughts reeling.
There was still a chance that the Council would decide that Anakin was too old to be trained as a Jedi. That way, assuming he was returned to Tatooine ...
But if not ... if Qui-Gon managed to sway the Council Masters, and they reneged on their own dictates ...
Plagueis ran a hand over his forehead. Are we undone? he thought. Have you undone us?

 

I did paraphrase a little - but the result is the same.

The point I'm trying to highlight is that the Sith came across Anakin by chance - they were not actively searching for him, nor knew of his existence.
In fact, had Damask not been alive at this point, Palpatine would have shown indifference on a far higher scale.

 

That's not the situation though. Anakin had been used to risk everything in support of the Jedi; pulled from his mother, and stood before the Council only to be deemed unfit for training. At this point rumor of Qui-Gon's Chosen One is already rampant throughout the temple. To send him anywhere without the continued protection of the Jedi is virtually handing him over to the Sith.

 

In Legends, Anakin thinks that even if he had remained on Tatooine, he'd eventually come to public notice:

Labyrinth of Evil

Maybe Qui-Gon should have left you at Watto's junk shop.
Obi-Wan's little joke. But the words had stung, for some reason. Probably because of Anakin's own musings about what might have become of him had the Jedi not been forced to land on Tatooine to find a replacement part for Padme's starship. It wasn't hard to imagine himself stuck in Mos Espa. With his mom; with C-3PO, without the bright shell he now wore -
No.
At nine years of age he had been an expert Podracer; by twenty-one he would have been a galactic champion. With or without Qui-Gon's or Watto's help, he would eventually have won the Boonta Eve race, and his reputation would have been made. He would have bought freedom for himself, his mother, all the slaves in Mos Espa, gone on to win the Grand Races on Malastare, been hailed in the gambling casinos on Ord Mantell and Coruscant. He wouldn't have become a Jedi - he would have been too old to train - would never have learned to wield a lightsaber. But he would have been able to fly rings around the finest of Jedi pilots, including Saesee Tiin.
And he still would have been stronger in the Force than any of them.
He might never have met Padme ...
He had thought her an Angel, arrived on Tatooine from the Moons of Iego. A playful remark on his part, but not as entirely innocent as it had sounded. Even so, to her he was just a funny little boy. Padme didn't know then that his precocity wasn't limited to a skill for building and fixing things. He had an uncanny sense for knowing what was going to happen; a certainty that he would become celebrated. He was different - chosen long before the Jedi Order had bestowed the title. Mythical beings came to him - Angels and Jedi - and he excelled in contests in which humans weren't even meant to participate. And yet, even with an Angel and Jedi for guests in his home, he hadn't divined the sudden departure from Tatooine, the Jedi training, his marriage.
He was no longer the funny little boy. But Padme remained his Angel -
A vision of her broke his reverie.

 

In a way, they did snatch babies.

 

Wait, "are you an angel?" was a pick up line? lmao wow Atton Rand from KOTOR2 was right! This makes that line 10x worse!

 

I think its meaning is using your powers, status and abilities to hurt or take advantage of people and I guess also to unjustly benefit yourself (unjust mostly if it's at the unfair expense of other people).

It would seem an overly fragile system if areas leaving would doom the whole government. I don't see why they couldn't just be regarded the way places that had never joined it are.

It is kind of weird that in RotS the public and politicians seems to like Palpatine because he won the war (I assume a lot of the applause was genuine rather than just out of fear) but distrust and dislike the Jedi despite the role they played in it.

 

TCW goes into this a bit, and I think at least one Legends novel did too. Palpatine has been waging a subtle psychological campaign the entire time. For example, I think it's Lightsaber Lost, there's an easily missed Palpatine speech on a background screen where he's basically saying "gee golly gosh, these rumors about the Jedi prolonging the war as a power grab are Definitely Not True, everybody!"

The kind of "denial" that serves only to keep it in the public consciousness and sound suspiciously specific about the bad stuff X person or group is definitely NOT doing, nothing to see here. It's catnip for conspiracy theorists and a public ripe for being given someone to blame. Especially since there IS someone manipulating the course of the war for their own benefit - Palpatine only has to quietly plant ideas about that being someone other than himself.

Then in the end of course Palpatine has all the Jedi executed, fully takes over everything, ends the war immediately, and his public narrative of those mean, suspicious, finally treacherous old Jedi using the war for their own purposes (aren't you glad you gave Palpatine all the power ever so he can't be bogged down by others any longer), is complete.

EDIT: Forgot to add, whichever book I was thinking of also has parts about how Palpatine maneuvering the Jedi into the public eye and individual Jedi being known far and wide as heroes "for morale purposes, you understand, and that's why we need you need to accept it even if it's making you all uncomfortable" made them ripe for becoming a scapegoat when public opinion of the war started to sour. The association had been formed in people's minds: he'd made them the public face of it all.

One can only imagine the kind of equally vicious psychological warfare vs. the public Palpatine had written up and ready to go if the Jedi had instead refused to do their duty in the first place.

 

Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader, has a lot of something similar to this - Palpatine scapegoating the Jedi:

He tells Senators that the Jedi were behind the whole thing:​

​

"Your Majesty, if I may," the human Senator from Commenor said in a suitably deferential tone. "Perhaps you could shed some light on the matter of why the Jedi betrayed us. As you are undoubtedly aware, the HoloNet seems reluctant to provide details."​

Well beyond the need to employ diplomacy or deception to achieve his ends, the Emperor made a derisive sound.​

"The Order deserved all that it received for deluding us into believing that they served me in serving you. The complexity of their nefarious plan continues to astound me. Why they didn't attempt to kill me three years ago is something I will never understand. As if I could have stood against them. If it were not for the recent actions of my guards and our troopers, I would be dead."​

Palpatine's off-color eyes clouded with hatred.​

"In fact, the Jedi believed that they could oversee the galaxy better than we could, and they were willing to perpetuate a war simply to leave us defenseless and susceptible to their treason. Their vaunted Temple was a fort, their base of operations. They came to me with tales of having killed General Grievous - a cyborg, no less - and sought to arrest me because I refused to take them at their word that the fighting was suddenly over, the Separatists defeated.​

"When I dispatched a legion of troopers to reason with them, they drew their lightsabers and the battle was met. We have the Grand Army to thank for our victory. Our noble commanders recognized the truth of the Jedi's treachery, and they executed my commands with vigor. The very fact that they did so, without question, without hesitation, suggests to me that our troopers had some inkling all along that the Jedi were manipulating events."​

​

An ex-Vigo of the Black Sun explains to some Jedi fugitives how Palpatine was blaming the Jedi for the whole thing:​

​

"I have to say," Garrulan went on, "I never would have guessed the Jedi would be held accountable."​

"For attempting to arrest Palpatine, you mean," Shryne said.​

"No - for the war." Garrulan stared at Shryne for a long moment. "Maybe you two should have a drink."​

Garullan was halfway to his feet when Shryne said: "No drinks. Just tell us."​

The Twi'lek looked genuinely dismayed. "I hate to be the bearer of bad news, Roan - especially to you, of all people - but the war has been laid at the feet of the Jedi. You manipulated the whole charade: vat-grown troopers on one side, Master Dooku on the other, all in an attempt to overthrow the Republic and place yourselves in charge. That's why Palpatine ordered your execution, and why the Jedi Temple was sacked."​

​

Bail muses:

Only with the war's sudden and shocking end had Bail come to understand that what had seemed political maneuvering on Palpatine's part had been nothing less than inspired machination - the unfolding of a diabolical scheme to prolong the war, and so frustrate the Jedi that when they finally sought to hold him accountable for refusing to proclaim the war concluded with the deaths of Count dock and General Grievous, Palpatine could not only declare them traitors to the Republic,but also pronounce them guilty of having fomented the war to serve their own end, and therefore deserving of execution.



However, Book of Sith had a description by Palpatine of what he was doing to the Jedi's public image during the Clone Wars themselves - which may be what you're thinking of:

The Jedi did not want war, but they had little choice. They had to join the fight lest they face public scorn. There on the front lines, my war struck down many enemies and shredded their morals until they were on the brink of the dark side. The Jedi were never the true heroes. I saw to that by manipulating the HoloNet. The people were led to fear the Jedi's arrogance and strange power. By crafting the news, the clone troopers and their noble chancellor became the fearless heroes of the Republic.
When the time came for the Jedi to be eliminated, the public did not mourn them. When the Senate learned that the Jedi had attempted a coup and needed to be exterminated, they responded with absolute certainty. And when the people saw smoke rising from the Jedi Temple, they felt relief.

 

I flipped briefly through my Kindle, I don't have time to do a lot of text searching but I think I was thinking of Wild Space. I thought a lot of that book was silly fanfic trope nonsense but I definitely remember it having some good Palpatine content. So that's +1 for the list of similar explanations for why people reacted as they did.

 

I thought there were enough good moments, that the occasional "fanfic-y" moment didn't bother me. It put Bail in the spotlight as well, and there were a few scenes throughout that and the next two books by that author, showcasing the dynamic between Sidious and Dooku, too.

The scene you may be thinking of:

“No. I’m sorry,” said Organa, shaking his head. “This isn’t coming out right. I really am on your side, you know. I admire the Jedi enormously. I am in awe of what you do. But in case you hadn’t noticed it, this war has thrust you onto center stage. You’re in the news every day. Everything you do is being examined. Magnified. And when the novelty’s worn off, it’s going to be second-guessed, and maybe even held up for censure. Especially if the war drags on, or doesn’t go our way. Because you have been placed on a pedestal as tall as any Coruscant skyscraper.”​

“That was never our intention, Senator, I assure you.”​

“I know,” said Organa. “But you’re up there regardless. You’re the Jedi, Master Kenobi. Larger than life and twice as hard to kill. Still, the more systems the Separatists entice or strong-arm to their side, the more suffering and fear the Republic experiences, the closer the Separatists creep to the Core, and the longer it takes the Jedi to end this conflict—the harder your pedestal is going to rock. Especially if it’s perceived that you’re not suffering like everyone else.”​

“Not suffering, Senator?” he said, incredulous. “After Geonosis? After the engagements we’ve fought already? And losing the Falleen battle group? Must the Jedi Temple itself fall before it can be agreed that the Jedi are also paying a price for this war we did not start?”​

“Of course not,” said Organa. “I’m talking about perception, not reality. The bedrock of politics. I think you’ll grant it’s one of my areas of expertise.”​

The least honorable of them all. Obi-Wan nodded. “I concede your point.”​

“And I wish you didn’t have to,” Organa replied. “Master Kenobi, the Jedi have been the Republic’s peacekeepers for generations. Citizens are used to you solving their local problems. Their community disputes. But we both know that what we’re facing is far more complicated. And I promise you, I promise—when things get really bad you will be blamed.”​

Curd-and-vegetable stew forgotten, Obi-Wan stared in silence at the Senator from Alderaan.​

“I’m sorry,” said Organa, turning away. “You don’t have to say it. I’m just a politician. It’s none of my business.”​

Just a politician? No. Far from it. Now it was clear why Padmé liked and trusted this princeling from Alderaan. He was … unexpected.​

“The Jedi aren’t blind, Senator,” he said, at last. “We’re perfectly aware that our elevation in the public eye is problematic. We opposed it vigorously. We continue to oppose it. We are, as you say, peacekeepers. Not celebrities. The Supreme Chancellor should reconsider his tactics. We feel very strongly there is a chance they could end up doing us more harm than good.” ​

 

When and where did this happen?

 

Since they weren't allowed to have kids they had to get new Jedi somehow. (Please tell me if I'm getting my facts wrong.)

 

In the Legendsverse, there was both compulsory midi-chlorian testing at birth, and a "Jedi are legal custodians of Force-sensitive Republic citizens" policy.

However, generally speaking, they didn't force parents to choose between handing over their children and emigrating from the Republic.

In the newcanon - the exact nature of Jedi recruitment policy - what they can legally do vs what they do usually do - is a bit more unclear - but it's still safe to say that, regardless of having acquired a bad reputation with some factions, their normal procedure is not outright "legalized kidnapping".

 

It does lead to interesting questions.
Does both parents have to agree to this?
What happens if the parents change their minds?
Since it seems that a high midi count is always passed on. So if one couple has one child with a high count, if they have a second, that would likely have a high count as well.
So of both are taken in, are they told that they are siblings?

Bye for now.
Blackboard Monitor

 

It looks to me like Tiplee and Tiplar know they are siblings. They might have been assigned to separate "clans" to minimise attachment growth though.

In Legends, I think there were hints that only one parent if there is a couple, have to agree, for the Jedi to take the kid. A point was made in Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader, that the mother of the main non-Vader protagonist, did not agree - the father handed the kid over anyway - and this is implied to have ultimately led to the breakup of their marriage.

And once handover's done, there are no "take backs".

Regarding Force-sensitivity in families - in Legends - it usually ran in families, but not always - there were exceptions - Force-sensitive parents who produced non-sensitive children (or, for that matter, varying sensitivity within a family - some children being much more sensitive than others).

 

There have been a number of spin-off tales regarding family conflict from the Jedi "taking of younglings". If I recall correctly, there was a side-plot about it in Zahn's Outbound Flight.

That aside, if we are quoting from Legends, it is interesting to point out how Dooku, in Darth Plagueis, still a Jedi master, openly concedes that the Jedi might send Anakin back to Tatooine, if they didn't run with Qui-Gon's offer to train him. I'm uncertain whether that's contravention of any of their doctrines, however. It does show blindness and ignorance, but not as much open corruption of the sort we're discussing.

The Jedi were distrusted, as with so many things, because they were an unknown, somewhat isolated from the normal activities of the Republic at large. A politician's very job is to be popular - the Jedi never sort to 'win over' the support of the people, they were selfless in that regard. That is why the Sith flourish in times of hardship, because they can prey on the hearts and minds of the masses. The Jedi are rather too stoic for that. For as much as I dislike the fact that the notions of Jedi and Sith have constantly been changed over the whole franchise, at least writers and directors have been mostly consistent with that message.

I suppose you can draw the real-life comparison, of course, to religious institution (Jedi) versus the people (Republic Citizens) and see it as an allegory - but it's rather icky to discuss and not really relevant to corruption.