PT Implication of Mace's decision in Palpatine's office

I've heard it said that Mace made the right decision to kill Sidious in front of a conflicted Anakin, but looking at what info we have I don't see how anyone can reasonably claim this.


Lucas knew what he was doing, the scene doesn't exist in a vacuum - most notably inverting Luke's compassionate decision not to kill Vader in ROTJ - and Lucas didn't have Mace's action attempted by an influential and leading member of the Jedi (spiritually and politically) by coincidence.

Lucas states on the commentary "Mace was going to arrest him but after Palpatine did the lightning he changed his mind." and "Mace should have arrested Palpatine."
Note "should have" implies he is not referencing Mace's earlier arrest attempt, but reinforcing even after the lightning attempt Mace still would be making the correct decision in arresting Sidious.

To me it implies despite Sidious resisting violently at first, if Mace attempted another arrest when Palpatine feigned weakness Palpatine would have gone quietly for now, if only to fool Anakin. He was counting on Mace doing what he did, he was provoking Mace to achieve that exact response.
I feel Mace is making a partially emotional decision here, going against the Jedi teachings. Logically the only thing that has changed about Palpatine's position since the fight is that Palpatine has attacked him repeatedly and pissed him off, but Mace does a 180 on his initial decision to arrest. "He has control of the Senate and the Courts" was already true before, and is arguably just rationalisation to do something Mace deep down knows goes against his own philosophy.

I can't see Mace's actions as purely logical. He is right that Palpatine would likely ultimately turn an arrest to his advantage, but it would buy them time to get any support from the Senate - the way it plays out they didn't acquire any approval whatsoever. Mace even states to himself in the novelisation his one attachment is the Republic. He fears the loss of democracy and the Jedi Order and it colours his actions. His fears are pretty founded, yes, but I think it is pretty contradictory to respect and believe in the Jedi way yet gloss over Mace making a clearly emotion based decision, something the Jedi are of course majorly trained not to do.



There is a lot to link the scene to ROTJ's climactic confrontation.

Emperor (ROTJ): "Young fool. Only now, at the end do you understand."
Mace (ROTS script): "You old fool. The oppression of the Sith will never return. You have lost."


Emperor (ROTJ): "So be it... Jedi." (Jedi is said with contempt reflecting a personal grudge in the Emperor).
Mace (ROTS script): "You Sith disease. I am going to end this once and for all!" (Again, Sith mentioned as a sign of personal hatred from Mace).


More directly; Mace's lack of clarity regarding Anakin's conflict... and trying to kill Palpatine, despite the chosen one's presence and Anakin's compassion for Palpatine, is a symbolic echo of Palpatine's blindness to Vader's conflict in ROTJ. Punctuated by The Emperor trying to kill Anakin's only link to his past in his son right in front of a conflicted Vader. At both climaxes the ones closest to Anakin/Vader by association (Jedi Master/Sith Master) were spiritually the furthest away.
In the novelisation, Mace senses when Anakin arrives that Palpatine's shatterpoint is that Palpatine trusts Anakin, but doesn't realise what it means. He thinks he senses Palpatine's fear and that it means Palpatine is about to be defeated, but indicated by Palpatine's retort; the fear Mace is blind to the source of is Anakin's.

From the novel...

"Save your twisted words, my Lord. There are no politicians here. The Sith will never gain control of the Republic. It's over. You've lost." Mace leveled his blade. "You lost for the same reason the Sith always lose: defeated by your own fear."
Palpatine lifted his head.
His eyes smoked with hate.
"Fool." he said.
He lifted his arms, his robes of office spreading wide into raptor's wings, his hands hooking into talons.
"Fool!" His voice was a shout of thunder. "Do you think the fear you feel is mine?"



The climax of the scene in the novelisation:

"I . . . can't. I give up. I ... I am too weak, in the end. Too old and too weak. Don't kill me, Master Jedi. Please. I surrender."
Victory flooded through Mace's aching body. He lifted his blade. "You Sith disease --"
"Wait--" Skywalker seized his lightsaber arm with desperate strength. "Don't kill him--you can't just kill him, Master--"
"Yes, I can." Mace said, grim and certain. "I have to."
"You came to arrest him. He has to stand trial--"
"A trial would be a joke. He controls the courts. He controls the Senate--"
"So are you going to kill all them, too? Like he said you would?"
Mace yanked his arm free. "He's too dangerous to be left alive. If you could have taken Dooku alive, would you have?"
Skywalker's face swept itself clean of emotion. "That was different--"
Mace turned toward the cringing, beaten Sith Lord. "You can explain the difference after he's dead."
He raised his lightsaber.
"I need him alive!" Skywalker shouted. "I need him to save Padme!"
Mace thought blankly, Why? And moved his lightsaber toward the fallen Chancellor.
Before he could follow through on his stroke, a sudden arc of blue plasma sheared through his wrist and his hand tumbled away with his lightsaber still in it and Palpatine roared back to his feet and lighting speared from the Sith Lord's hands and without his blade to catch it, the power of Palpatine's hate struck him full-on.
He had been so intent on Palpatine's shatterpoint that he'd never thought to look for Anakin's.
Dark lightning blasted away his universe.
He fell forever.




Both Anakin's Jedi Master (ROTS) and Vader's Sith Master (ROTJ) are overconfident in their victory at the crucial moment. And both trust Anakin - Mace; finally, because Anakin's mission to spy on Palpatine appears successful, and The Emperor; because he believes once turned a Sith will never stray from the dark.

 

That came across a little more negative than I had envisioned
Ah well. For effect I am emphasising what I think Mace's major failure is during the "turn" scene. Anakin's own greed and Palpatine's motive have been discussed pretty extensively in the past.



Trivially, thought I would add a point about two of those quotes.

When I mentioned Mace derisively name-drops "Sith", and Palpatine hatefully name-drops "Jedi", a major similarity is that these moments are where the mentioned "Sith" and "Jedi" have seemingly given up, and the accuser has then decided they must die.

Sidious: "I'm too weak... I can't hold on any longer."
Mace: "You Sith disease. I am going to end this once and for all!"

Luke: "I am a Jedi, like my father before me."
Sidious: "So be it... Jedi."

Just thought that was trippy.

 

I dunno, maybe when the lightning starts flying out of Palpatine's fingers, Mace senses how powerful he is and then changes his mind?

 

Maybe, but he already knew Palpatine was powerful by reputation, plus Palpatine leaping over the desk and killing 3 of his companions.

He is going to arrest him twice with this in mind. I think logically the only thing that has changed after the lightning is Palpatine's cockiness and display of aggression has angered Mace.

 

Woderful analysis by HevyDevy again!

 

the failure of Mace Windu was singlehandedly deciding to arrest the Chancellor of the Republic and having ZERO proof about Palpatine's connection to the Sith; most of the Senate was probably outraged, like "those damn Jedi, who do they think they are??"
Yoda knew it was a dark path; even Anakin, already willing to join the DS to save Padmé, saw this action as a bullying move by Windu

 

The quote function doesn't seem to be working, so this will have to do:

I don't think anyone who defends Mace's decision argues that the scene is not meant to mirror ROTJ. It is. But while the scenes mirror, they do not present the same conundrum.
For one, Mace wasn't going to strike Sidious out of hatred. Notice how "you Sith decease" was not in the final movie (and that's the material we should be using as a basis for discussion). The line was cut for a reason. Sidious striked Luke out of hatred.
Second, Luke was truly helpless in ROTJ. Sidious was feigning helplessness in ROTS.
Third, Anakin killed Sidious to save Luke. Mace was going to kill Sidious to save the Republic.

P.S: Anakin had no compassion for Sidious in ROTS. He simply needed him.

 

While Mace was in the right and Sidious was a real threat-remember Yoda, Mundi, and Windu discussed overthrowing the government earlier in the movie-installing a transitional government but I do recall either in the novelization or some other source this would have involved the arrest of many senators and the probably seizure of power by the Jedi on Coruscant. Which is legally and by definition a coup.

Which Sidious then used to state rightly-the Jedi were plotting to overthrow the republic.

 

They don't present a perfectly identical conundrum, no. There are several angles to come at it from, also.

Firstly; in both scenes Mace and Luke have a chance to strike down and kill an unarmed Sith.
- Luke realises before doing it where he is heading if he kills Vader, makes the compassionate decision to throw aside his saber, and leaves himself vulnerable to Sidious's lightning attack.
- Mace tries to finish off the Sith Lord, arguably in anger, and is betrayed by Anakin and similarly takes Sidious's lightning anyway.

Luke's decision is based on the fact that all beings deserve compassion, and regardless of whether Vader really deserves forgiveness, he sees past this and doesn't want to be the one to end his father's life.
Mace's decision is forgetting a Jedi's unconditional compassion for all things, and deciding that for the greater good, he has the moral authority to end Sidious's life.


Secondly; there is the inverted mirror between Palpatine and Luke.
- Palpatine, who has been sensing Anakin's conflict far more clearly than Anakin's Jedi Masters have, was previously under Jedi arrest and is about to be killed by Mace. This provokes a shift in Anakin, who saves his father-figure's life out of selfish greed and betrays the higher ranking Jedi Master Mace. This returns the Sith to power and makes Anakin Vader.
- Luke, who has been sensing Vader's conflict far more clearly than Vader's Sith Master has, was previously under Sith arrest and is about to be killed by The Emperor. This provokes a shift in Vader, who saves his son's life out of selfless compassion and betrays the higher ranking Sith Master Sidious. This returns the Jedi to power and makes Vader Anakin.

Anakin/Vader as the chosen one in both scenarios makes the final decision on who survives, yet both times he is heavily influenced by someone close - Palpatine's pull to the dark and Luke's pull to the light.

It's in the available script though, and it is debatable whether it still holds weight for final judgement of the situation. I think it was cut to not dilute Palpatine's evil characterisation.

Mace is clearly angry with Palpatine in the final moments, the macro situation is no more dire than it was when Mace entered the office, rather Palpatine has frustratingly resisted arrest and attacked Mace. I would argue Mace does hate Palpatine, it is in his characterisation in the scene. When Anakin pleads - "You can't! He must stand trial" Mace glares at Anakin, he doesn't want to hear it. We could circularly debate this to no end, but to me the decision to finish Sidious is influenced by Mace's emotion.
Yes, there is some logic in the greater needs of the galaxy outweighing the value of keeping Palpatine alive, but I think the intention is this is not up to Mace to single-handedly decide this.

Mace and Anakin don't know this. When determining the valididity of each Jedi's position, I think Anakin's and Mace's known information comes into account.
Palpatine was letting Mace go for a legitimate kill, arguably knowing Anakin wouldn't allow it. And Lucas's quotes seem to imply if a third arrest attempt was made Sidious would go quietly for now. Otherwise Lucas's suggestion "Mace should have arrested Palpatine" makes little sense.

Anakin's decision is ROTJ seems more compassionate to me though. Mace was saving the Republic and Jedi Order, but there was no "compassion; unconditional love" there.

He had compassion for him before learning his true identity, but you are right, after the turn Anakin and Palpatine are using each other and they know it.
I do think, however, knowing the man for 13 years would make it hard to completely undo the sympathy Anakin once felt for him.

 

Sidious was not unarmed. He had just attacked Mace seconds before.

Luke's decision is based on sensing the good in Vader.

Mace's decision to kill Sidious to save the Republic is no different than Anakin's decision to kill Sidious to save Luke. It's because they are compassionate for others that they are saving them from this (armed and powerful) evil being.

Or to not portray Windu in anger. The point is that it was removed intentionally.

Mace declares Palpatine under arrest. Palpatine resists arrest, kills the other Jedi and tries to kill Mace himself. Mace beats Palpatine and declares him defeated. Palpatine tries to kill Mace again through the dark side. Mace defends himself and decides to finally finish him.

No more dire? I disagree.

Ideally, no. It isn't. But Mace himself addresses that, since those who are meant to decided no longer have the ability to. Sidious is in control of everything.

I do think they know. They also know that Mace can actually kill him, and that's what affects Anakin's decision to strike him.

He also says Qui-Gon was wrong in taking Anakin for training. Lucas is talking about what should have ideally happened. Yes, Mace should have arrested Palpatine and Palpatine should have let himself be arrested.

Yes, there is, for everyone that's part of it. The only difference is that in ROTJ, the situation is more personal, hence why it may seem "more compassionate".

 

His saber went out the window, and as far as Mace and Anakin were aware Sidious was out of juice for the lightning. I would agree he wasn't legitmately helpless but he was unarmed. If Anakin hadn't cut off Mace's hand Mace's strike would be a death-blow. Palpatine was just so megalomaniacal he was willing to take that chance to ensnare Skywalker.

I had considered this when I made my post. You are right, but ultimately Luke's decision also reflects he could see the worth in anyone. His refusal to kill Vader was also a refusal to attempt to fight Palpatine, afterall. I'm not saying he would necessarilly spare Palpatine in that situation, but I don't think Luke's act was just a man feeling the good in his father - it was a portrayal of Luke's compassion for all things.

No different? I don't agree there.
Anakin's action in ROTJ was out of love. He gained nothing from this gesture besides his son's life. It was selfless. There was no power involved... the Empire's end was a result of him seeing the error in his past choices but the decision wasn't political in any way.
Mace's decision is partially based on fear. Fear for the Jedi Order, fear for the people of the Republic, fear for himself. There is a small element of taking away Palpatine's power and reinstating the Jedi Order's own. At least, temporarily.

Perhaps. I think Mace was angry.

But the situation hasn't changed. Mace knew Palpatine was responsible for innocent deaths when he first tried to arrest him.
Palpatine just hadn't directly killed his colleagues and attempted to kill Mace yet. There was some personal bitterness after that.

So that automatically makes Mace the decider?
You have a valid point, but this is just not how things work.

Sidious didn't control everyone, this is apparent in the Jedi's strong will against Sidious and in Padme and many other Senator's remaining loyalty to democracy.
The Jedi were tricked into acting too hastily. They should have more directly involved the Senate.
Even if the Courts and Senates are flawed, this just proves Palpatine's point that the Jedi want autonomoty and aren't submissive to the whims of the Republic.
Granted, maybe they shouldn't be, but that is a different subject. Perhaps they should have been less tied to the failing Republic from earlier on.

We have had this discussion before, and your stance is the novelisation dialogue isn't valid.
But I personally include in my headcanon the description of a moment in the novelisation; where Mace senses victory when Palpatine seemingly gives up, indicating he thought Palpatine was out of power when Mace goes for the kill. Both the final film and the novel seem to indicate Mace and Anakin think Palpatine is about to die at the climax. Just like Anakin suspected that Palpatine would kill Mace if Anakin intervened.
Mace is shocked when Anakin stops him, it totally catches him off-guard.

Fair point.

Mace meant well, and I would agree he was thinking of the galaxy's well-being, but I retain the belief that his decision is flawed.

 

The biggest problem Mace was facing in that moment when he went to strike Palpatine down was himself.

His use of Vapaad as his preferred form of lightsaber combat opened the doors within him that lead to the dark side of the Force. I don't have my copy handy but I think it says somewhere during the fight that Mace was "deep into it" and that Vapaad was almost as much of a danger to the person who used it as it was to their opponent. After discovering the true identity of the Sith Lord, watching his fellow Masters die and engaging in a brutal lightsaber duel (the novel makes it clear just how intense it was and that when he arrived Anakin could only see flashes of red and purple as Mace and Palp were moving so fast. ) Mace was unable to rein in his emotions and toppled into a place of anger and hate.

This also caused him not to sense Anakins betrayal until it was far too late.

So Mace attempted to use a Dark Side view to commit a light side act and this left him vulnerable.

 

When I say he's not unarmed, I'm taking into account the weapon that is his dark side powers.

Except Sidious.

Luke's refusal to fight Sidious is a mere recognition of the futility of it. He's not capable of facing him. He's too powerful. He'd rather die as a Jedi than entertain Sidious with a fight or risk losing himself (as he almost did against Vader) while he was at it.

We'll have to agree to disagree here.

I don't see any bitterness. After Palpatine killed the Masters, Mace defeated Sidious and declared he had lost. It was only after the lightning that he decided to kill him.

Of course it's not how things work. The scene was made so that there's no clean exit.

By "everyone", I meant the different bodies and branches of power in the government, not each and every individual in it.

I don't argue that Mace was capable of killing Sidious. I believe all three of them know these facts:
- Sidious is not weak or unable to attack.
- Mace can kill Sidious.
- Anakin's judgment is clouded.

Well, it's a flawed situation.

 

Some good discussion in terms of mirroring Anakin-Mace-Palpatine and Vader-Palpatine-Luke. Would expect nothing less from Hevy.

But I'm going to bring up something related, but slightly askew because reading the OP brought it to my mind.

First, was Palpatine just lucky that it was Mace *arresting* him and not one of the other three that rode shotgun (and got shotgunned). Or do you think Palpatine made a conscious effort to take out the other three first not because he necessarily viewed Mace as more of the physical threat, but because he needed Mace to be the last standing as the prime candidate for jailer turned executioner?

Second, was it even more planned than that. Was Palpatine actually arranging specific Separatist planet attacks according to his calculation of which Jedi would be sent to help. He talked to these Jedi Masters frequently about war efforts. He could have known intimately of Yoda's superior relationship with the Wookies of Kashykk, so Kashykk became the target at that precise time. Palpatine ordered it through his back channels (Grievous) knowing full well if Yoda was part of the arrest team, he couldn't pull off the final Anakin seduction.

 

"Mace was going to do the right thing by arresting him, but after Palpatine does the lightning, he changes his mind."

--George Lucas, The Making Of ROTS; Page 204.

Lucas makes it clear here that Mace's decision may have seemed to be the right thing to have done, but it was definitely wrong since it is what prompts Anakin to act. And it is, in itself, a very dangerous thing to have allowed to have happened. Mace was in control until Palpatine goaded him into changing his mind. A Jedi Master of Mace's stature and caliber should be past such an emotional decision. He should have not be manipulated in such a simple, almost novice, sort of way. As to battling the Posse, Palpatine knew all about who Mace was and how powerful he was. That's why he didn't fear him. He went with Agen and Sasee because they were capable, but not in his league. He wasn't really toying with Mace as it was that Mace was capable of holding his own against him, just as Yoda did.

I don't think he knew about Yoda's relations with the Wookiees, but he wasn't going to look a gift horse in the mouth. That was one of life's little bonuses. But in the matter of Obi-wan, he was well aware that the Council would send him over Anakin to Utapau, which is why he planted the notion of Anakin being the one to go, thus knowing full well what would happen.

 

What prompted Anakin to act were his own selfish desires. Mace was about to take away something that he needed: Sidious' knowledge. It's Anakin who's in the wrong. Mace is not responsible for Anakin's own decisions and actions.

It wasn't Palpatine that changed Mace's mind on purpose. When Mace defeated him, he tought he was able to arrest and contain him. Since Palpatine attacked with lightning, Mace realize that he couldn't and was 'forced' to decide to kill him.

 

Fair enough. Because Palpatine wasn't accepting that he is faulty. What can you do with him? Mace said he is under arrest but Palpatine keeps shooting Force lightning, Mace had no other choice.

 

Mace is responsible since his decision to go from arresting to killing Palpatine is what makes Anakin act, which Lucas himself also pointed out.

"Okay, well this sequence always started out with Mace, uh, overpowering Palpatine and then Palpatine using his powers to try to destroy Mace and Mace deflecting his rays with his Lightsaber. It always was that Anakin cut the Lightsaber out of his hand. But this part where he pretends to lose his power and be weak was something that I added later cause it moved the point where Anakin turns down to this moment right here and you can see that he’s now...that it's very clear that he’s...he wants him to go on trial so he can pump him for information about how to get these powers."

--George Lucas, ROTS DVD Commentary.

So, yes, Mace is responsible. If he had kept to his earlier decision to arrest Palpatine, then Anakin wouldn't have attacked Mace in order to keep him alive. That's why Anakin is silent until Mace says that he's going to finish him off now.

Yes, he did do it on purpose. That's why he changed tactics as soon as Anakin arrived.

The Jedi Master is winning when Anakin arrives but Palpatine, as the scene has been rethought, now seizes the occasion to exaggerate his weakness.

--The Making Of Revenge Of The Sith; Page 204.

Mace could still contain him when he failed to overpower Mace, by simply slicing off his limbs as Anakin did to Dooku and Obi-wan does to Anakin later on. Palpatine simply triggered Mace's anger into doing something wrong.

Threat neutralized.

 

Mace may be motivated by emotions, but that's irrelevant to Anakin's decision and reaction to him. Sidious did still pose as a threat, though he was pretending not to, and there could have been ways for Mace to disable him permanently without killing him, however, Sidious fooled all the Jedi Masters for more than thirteen years, and for all Mace knew, may have had another trick up his sleeve.

I personally think there was no use for Mace and the Jedi in keeping Sidious alive at that point, since he could easily have manipulated the Senate (except Bail, Padme, and their committee) especially if he was so powerful and dangerous still. Even if he was unable to fight, he could have gotten Anakin to help him and fight the Jedi and/or the courts.

I doubt Anakin really cared whether Mace was right in his attempt or whether it violated the Jedi way, he was thinking of his own wants and desires. Even if Mace was acting on dark emotions, the ends most likely justified the means.

 

But that in turn is the problem. That is what blurs the lines between good and evil and pushes the Force further out of balance. Mace thinking that the ends justified the means was the only solution is what got them all in this mess in the first place. Mace needed to set a good example for Anakin here, just as Luke does later on.

 

Yes, his attempt to strike Sidious is what prompts Anakin to act, but he's not responsible for Anakin's actions. Anakin is. Mace is only responsible for his own actions.

Anakin didn't need to attack Mace. Anakin's decision is his own, and so were his actions.

He's silent because he's confused and Sidious is holding his own by blasting lightning towards Mace.

He blasted Windu with lightning with Anakin standing by. That's not faking anything. The faking comes later when he pretends to be "too weak".

Anakin sliced Dooku's hands out of hatred and anger, and Obi-Wan sliced him off to leave him to die. Not for him to live.

 

I didn't say it wasn't his decision. I'm saying not everything exists in a vacuum.

Prompted by Mace's actions. Cause and effect.

He's silent because so far, it's bad, but not that bad yet. It only goes that way when Mace declares his intention to kill him.

You're splitting hairs.

Both times they did that to stop the fight. The fight is over when they have no hands or legs. Anakin had Dooku at his mercy and only killed him because he was told to do so by Palpatine. Anakin even says that he was a prisoner after the deed is done. Obi-wan could have decapitated Anakin instead of dismembering him, but he didn't. He even starts to help him before stopping himself. So, yes, Palpatine can be contained by cutting off his hands. Hell, the Jedi even have a prison for their own who go rogue, with at least two in there.

 

No, he can control minds, shoot lightning out of his hands and has engineered a false war costing billions of lives to grant himself the power to be dictator of the galaxy; oh, and he has executive control over a galactic military. He is guilty and the penalty is death. People take playing devil's advocate (and this man is almost literally the devil) too seriously here.

This is like asking if it's right to jump onto some train tracks to save a child or should you rush to City Hall first to apply for a train engineering license so you are legally allowed to go on the tracks.

The ultimate point of this emphatic "decision" is to seed doubt in Anakin's mind, so that a corrupt, selfish, mentally unstable man can pretend to himself that the Jedi are just as bad as the Sith; (even though he is using the Jedi Code to argue that someone should be saved so HE can become a Sith? Hypocrite much?) I do not believe the scene is supposed to be grey or ambiguous or controversial to any rational adult watching it.

 

He's not pretending to himself that the Jedi are bad. He's coming to this conclusion based on actions the Jedi have taken, that he has felt uncomfortable with from the start. The Jedi were held to a high standard and they expected him to adhere to those principles. So when the Jedi start acting un-Jedi like, he has reason to feel confused and conflicted by the situation. It is only made worse because of his attachment to Padme. That's why when things go down in Palpatine's office, the actions of Mace Windu prompt him to act. Not just because of his own selfish desires, but because the Jedi were going too far. Even Yoda says that this idea of taking over was leading them to a dark place. And then add in Obi-wan's own act of betrayal on Mustafar and you have someone who has literally been burned. When Luke takes the higher road and refuses to compromise himself to save his loved ones, he sends a powerful message to Anakin. One that saves them both.

 

Anakin had already lost respect for the effectiveness of the Jedi. But he still held them in high regard. He's better than this. He's a Jedi.

When a Jedi Master Council member was ready to do what he felt ashamed about doing just about a day earlier, the Jedi immediately lost their "high ground" in his eyes. If they aren't effective and they are virtuous, then what are they? Just another clan afraid of losing power. The lines were blurred.