PT I think The Phantom Menace is better than Attack Of The Clones

Of course it is: superior acting, characters, cinematography and action

 

Spam. Removed.

 

I think the opposite, but TPM has a lot going for it. There's a ridiculous amount of charm concerning many of the characters. Interesting to see how Anakin was brought to the attention of a Jedi, and Queen Amidala and her magnificent wardrobe is terrific. Darth Maul is a great fighting adversary, but I'd like more. Every character learns something in this and I appreciate picking up on that recently.

So why do I disagree? I utterly love Kenobi in Attack of the Clones and the whole clone army creation mystery he goes on, plus Count Dooku. Plus getting lost on Coruscant and the other worlds. It was nice to see different planets and cultures.

I certainly understand why there is a preference for The Phantom Menace though. It was the SW movie I'd seen the most times (a theatre up the block kept it around for the bulk of that summer so I went many, many times.)

 

I couldn't pick Travis Bickle out of a line-up. Honestly, at first glance, I thought he was Tom Cruise's character from Top Gun.

I think most of this debate about iconic characters hinges on generational differences. I've never seen Taxi Driver, but the prequels have much wider exposure to younger audiences.

So... among Baby Boomers, Bickle might be immediately recognizable, whereas Count Dooku might easily be confused with Dracula, but anecdotally I'm led to believe Dooku is Christopher Lee's most famous roll among people younger than 30 or 35 or so.

 

I will disagree with that flunky comment regarding Dooku: Whenever Christopher Lee portrayed a villain I took notice of him above and beyond any others earlier in the thread. Dooku lived up to his name...poison. He created an almost fatal taint in the systems and clans that became Separatists, and was instrumental creating the distrust and unease necessary to bring about the Clone War (and Sith rule.) Not to mention, telling Obi-Wan the truth and ordering that army. Sidious may have plotted all of this, but it was necessary for him to use a Jedi to get what he wanted. Given Dooku's former station he was able to do all of this with no one suspecting him just as Sidious did the same thing. Hiding in plain sight.

As far as Lee, I thought Saruman was his most famous role to those 35 and under, but it all works for me.

Anyway, an interesting thread.

 

I recently just watched TPM and AOTC and I think I like TPM a bit more

 

Pick anyone off the street and I doubt most of them could identify a picture of Grand Moff Tarkin or Rene Belloq. I fully believe you'd get noticeably better results with Count Dooku.

 

Rewatching the first two prequels back to back I did feel that TPM flowed better than AOTC. Some of it is probably due to TPM being almost a standalone (and most similar to its OT counterpart) and having a more streamlined plot. The other quality I think that help TPM is the use of the villains. Obviously, no one would consider the Trade Federation to be as intimidating as the Empire but they still manage to put credible pressure on the two Jedi in the opening scenes of the movie and then also capture the Queen and her entourage. We also see Darth Sidious, a far more sinister mastermind behind the TF (even if you don't know he's the future Emperor) and then we're also introduced to Darth Maul who sets out to hunt the Queen and face the Jedi and can potentially intercept them on Tatooine. And while Tatooine is relatively safe, the heroes are worried that the Hutts can find out about the Queen so they have to be low key (basically, we have two potential dangers here). So basically Coruscant scenes are the only ones where the characters are not in danger before they go back to Naboo.

By contrast, in AOTC, Padme is the only one who's being targeted in the first act and afterwards it's split between Anakin/Padme and Obi-Wan and no one seems to be in any significant danger until Obi-Wan is captured by Dooku. Padme suspects Dooku but don't even see him until half-way through the movie and Sidious only has one scene in the very end. That could be the main reason why a lot of folks are bored by AOTC or, at least, find the first half meanders a bit too much.

I still prefer AOTC for its sheer ambition and higher stakes. However, TPM is probably the closest we get to a stand-alone adventure in the still peaceful GFFA and a homage to old-school serials Lucas loved to watch in his youth.

 

[I am posting this basing what I post only on the title of this thread without reading any of the other posts within this thread.]
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Of course TPM is much better than AOTC. Removed/bashing

Removed/bashing

TPM wasn't great but it is one of the best films of the prequels save the original Yoda puppetry of the film.

 

You are obviously trolling here. You can write your opinion but then SPEAK FOR YOURSELF! Spare us the "we all know..." nonsense, as well as words like "disgusting", "our (!!!!!) disgust" etc. Personally I think your post should be reported and deleted.

 

My apologies. Will not happen again.

 

What I love about AOTC is the way it starts off as a political thriller, turns into a buddy cop movie, transitions into a Maltese Falcon-style detective movie intercut with a courtly romance by way of The Sound of the Music, becomes a John Ford Western revenge movie, then a John Carter movie set in a Roman gladiatorial arena with Ray Harryhausen monsters, and finally a war movie with Napoleonic armies clashing on a Martian battlefield while attack helicopters shoot missiles at War of the Worlds-esque mechanical monstrosities. It's everything I love about what Star Wars is and can be--this evocative mish-mash of genres that all somehow coalesce into a coherent whole. Like you say, it's one of the most ambitious takes on the core Star Wars concept that George Lucas ever executed.

 

I love both to death. But TPM stands above AOTC for me, because I thought Queen Amidala was the coolest person ever when I first watched it and each time I rewatch it I get nostalgic seeing Amidala in all her glory (After all TPM is essentially HER movie)

Also i really loved the story, I thought Qui Jon was amazing and seeing the Jedi in their arrogance was incredibly frustrating but needed. I thought the gungans were nice and seeing Padme's turmoil as Queen was also very interesting to watch. The ending to TPM is definitely the 2nd best ending in all SW films, ROTJ is 1st imo.

 

A very astute analysis - thanks for posting.

 

I don't really dislike either film, all saga films have their merits. However, the darker tone of AOTC is more appealing to me, and it is quite a bit more serious even if it still contains some of its predecessor's slapstick. I also prefer the action scenes of AOTC (Geonosis, anyone?) although I think the Qui-Gon-Obi-Wan-Maul duel was better than the Anakin-Obi-Wan-Yoda-Dooku duel.

 

Phantom Menace ftw.

Mythical and charming.

 

Less bluntly...

TPM is possibly my fave of the three prequels. I find I can sit through it and feel very satisfied at it's conclusion. It has Qui-Gon, Maul, and better Palpatine/Sidious scenes than AOTC.
An unfairly criticised depiction of Anakin that sets up ROTS - he is literally betraying this past version of himself when he turns. The Shmi scenes are emotional when you know where it is all heading. Personally my preferred depiction of Padme is in Ep1.
And some beautiful settings and world-building. A fair amount of action (of course a highlight with the final duel) while still retaining a mythical core.
I don't know what to say to counter the hate it gets. It's just a very rich experience for me, I can see it's faults, but sometimes I wonder if people are really paying attention.

AOTC has a lot of essential stuff, and symbolically and storywise it is pretty rich, and interwoven into the six movie arc.
Some of the characterisation bugs me, for example fans tend to be polarised on whether they root for Obi-Wan and the Jedi or Anakin, but I think both parties are at a bit of a low point for the six movies.
It is argued that Anakin is an antihero and therefore you aren't supposed to like him as much as Luke, but I think partially it actually unintentionally falls on the writing and acting that he is less likeable. There is humour and warmth that gets kind of lost in translation in the final film.
Obi-Wan - I can understand he is trying his best to mold Anakin into a true Jedi, but it frustrates me that he is so paint-by-numbers compared to his own master Qui-Gon. The wise open-minded Obi-Wan we see in the OT is only there in parts.
The use of colour in the film is pretty impressive, and helps create a kind of dreamscape. I am still convinced Anakin using a green saber on Geonosis which is then sliced in half by Dooku, is a symbolic hint at lost potential of what Anakin could have been.

 

Nicely said. I'd also mention the Coruscant chase (my favorite non-saber action scene in the series). Another way for Lucas to get his love of fast cars into Star Wars, although this time by way of a style that looks like Blade Runner and moves like a cyberpunk anime.

I've said something along these lines before, but AOTC is my favorite because it feels to me like it stemmed from a creative mindset to make a movie, as opposed to just a Star Wars movie. Even though TPM better stands alone in terms of story and overall visual design, AOTC is for me the most singular of them all.

 

I love them both and they both scream Star Wars the most to me.

 

Rewatching AOTC, I actually find the characters to be likeable. Sure, they are frustrating at times, but I don't see the banter during the speeder chase as malevolent. They've been together for 10 years, so they talk like they've been together for 10 years.
Also, I think AOTC Obi-Wan is a MUCH stronger character than Obi-Wan was when in the OT. There's a lot more personality in this film, and I feel this movie plus ROTS really made Ewan the more interesting Kenobi.
Also, even though I think TPM is a better film, I prefer to watch AOTC as it is the first 21st century SW film and those aesthetics appeal to me more.

 

Anakin is not an antihero (especially since he tries to follow the code until his turn), rather, he's a tragic fallen hero, similar to Achilles or Jason who were not necessarily likable in modern terms (fantasy books like Tolkien's have a few of those). Anakin is also not in a very happy place during the movie which means he's moody or stressed more often than not. Of course, to some people unlikable automatically means unheroic or evil, perhaps.

As for Obi-Wan, it makes sense that after having a somewhat wayward Master he wants to be more by the book with the Chosen One. In fact, he admits in ROTS he's failed Anakin and will change his style with Luke.

 

I might have been using the wrong term with antihero. What I meant is he isn't the likeable hero, you're right - tragic hero does fit better.

But the problem I have with it in Ep2 is sometimes it seems they are attempting to portray him as likeable, but it falls flat. Like the "I couldn't find a speeder I really liked" exchange is good on paper, but the delivery damages it where the audience is clearly supposed to be having a moment where you find Anakin and Obi-Wan relatable. The interplay between the two is better in the next film.

I would agree he isn't in an ideal place in AOTC. I particularly buy into the Tattooine section of the movie, that really makes the watch worthwhile for me.
It really gives a sense of tragic inevitability to the 6 film arc, but like I said other sections of the film and character however are portrayed a little less consistently.

I find him more believably tragic in ROTS. That film is done really well, and makes more sense in it's presentation, with the movie flowing with Anakin's character progression.
AOTC is a little all-over the place.
I don't think his unlikeability in AOTC paints him as evil though. More just dilutes the effectiveness of the loss of his innocence in Ep3. I see Anakin as struggling to be a good person until he caves during the confrontation between Mace, Anakin an Palpatine.


About Obi-Wan. I understand out-of-universe he needs to be written this way in order to contribute to Anakin's fall on a macro level. I do get that he grows and learns from his mistake, succeeding with Luke where he didn't with his father. I dunno, I just find both intentionally and perhaps less intentionally the presence of Qui-Gon in AOTC is sorely missed.

 

I think I will add myself into the camp as liking TPM over AOTC. The main reason which I've mentioned in another thread, was the addition of Qui Gon Jinn. I think Liam Neason did an awesome job portraying what I think the ideal Jedi should be. It was to the point that I wish Anakin had been written to be more like him and had more time to show this as well before his transformation into Darth Vader. Lucas should've just removed the episode numbering from the Star Wars saga, but keep the subtitles for each movie so that he could've done more prequel movies. For me, the only real downside to the prequels is that they feel rushed when I think the story would've worked better if they had just been spread out to about six movies or so to themselves. The OT worked for me and was pretty cut and dry, but I think there was just too many story elements in the prequel era for them to be crammed into only three movies.

 

TPM without the unnecessary Jar Jar stuff and the podrace cut down to make more room for Quigonn and Maul to have more scenes could have been excellent, as it is, I have to filter the movie myself mentally, the stuff that I like is up there with the very best of the SW universe but it contains so much stuff that's hard to stomach. Those elements are amazing in TPM, but as a whole movie I think AOTC has a lot more of a complete movie experience without tonnes of stuff that I feel should be cut/replaced, although I get annoyed by the terrible C3PO/R2D2 stuff at the factory and in the arena. I do really like these movies now but I used to dislike them or at best feel apathetic toward them, but yeah, I think they could definitely be improved, and if TPM expanded on its strengths and cut the bad stuff it could be much higher on my list. Hard to say whether I like TPM or AOC better though.

 

Back in the day, I felt that each prequel was better than the one before it. I took a pretty long break from Star Wars before Lucasfilm was acquired by Disney, so it's actually been years since I've seen AOTC or ROTS... (I watched TPM 2 years ago with my then nine year old nephew). I am actually going through the entire saga in a modified Machete order, so I will watch them all again soon. We will see if I somehow think TPM is now better than AOTC, tastes do change over the years.