ST The Reception of The Last Jedi vs The Empire Strikes Back

What has motivated you to start this thread? What do you hope to show? What are your thoughts on the subject? What is your bias?

Let me state that my previous post was from the perspective of 10 year old, with no supporting facts or sources. Although I don’t believe there was near the vitriol witnessed today. The amplification of individual voice is demonstrable. Also, TLJ is dealing with 35 years of legacy content, unlike TESB.


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My motivation was discussion, and the chance to read accounts. I found the topic interesting, I wanted to hear first hand accounts of how people viewed Empire, in comparison to the middle chapter of the ST. That's about it.

 

Do you think TLJ is comparable? Will it stand in the years ahead or will be seen as average in the pantheon of SW films?


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Oh I think TLJ is an extraordinary film that will hold up extremely well with the passing of time. Great films tend to rise to the top. There's nothing average about TLJ, which I consider easily one of the best SW films ever crafted.

But I can't speak on the topic I posed, since I missed the release and reception of TESB.

 

If you think about it the perceived divisive reception of TLJ has much to do with TESB. Luke’s journey and the heroes were undeniably challenged. Similarities of narrative elements. Comparing their respective receptions is hard for the simple fact that elements of TLJ are directly, heavily borrowed from TESB. It’s obvious, the reverence of RJ for that film. It’s like listening to Bruno Mars doing a version of a Prince riff; it’s good, but you know it’s been lifted. It becomes pastiche and homage. I will say that for SW that’s not necessarily a negative. It is what it is.


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It'll be a while, but I think TLJ compares very favorably to ESP. Its not as good, sure, but it stacks up.

 

It's always been like that. When I was a kid, it was "Yay Star Wars!" a couple years later, it was "Yay Transformers!" a year later it was "Yay GI Joe!", "Yay M.A.S.K.", "Yay Indiana Jones!", "Yay Ghostbusters!", "Yay Batman!"

A couple of years after those things, the toys gathered dust, including Star Wars for a while. Everything is cyclical in entertainment, but the things that make the biggest impression on you always bubble back to the forefront.

There is certainly more to choose from in media today, but while there is more to choose from, Star Wars itself will be more pervasive than ever before to keep up. Instead of 3 movies and then 2 Saturday morning cartoons in 10 years, it'll be yearly movies, cartoons, books, comics, live action series, etc.

These things have a way of sticking if they find a niche, even with kids today.

 

Amazing. Every word of what you just said was wrong.

I care. That definitively makes your post incorrect. Making absolute statements such as this is unproductive, at best. It certainly doesn't further the conversation in any sort of a meaningful way.

Remember, only a Sith deals in absolutes.

 

The main flaw with these new ST movies is the character of Rey. She’s just not compelling enough, especially when compared to Luke Skywalker and even Anakin. Both of those guys went through the absolute ringer in their trilogies while Rey is more perfect and powerful than Wonder Woman.

 

See, I disagree again. Luke probably was "Luke Sue" to an extent, if you think about it. He gets one "lesson" from Obi-Wan on the Falcon and he's suddenly taking out the Death Star. In Empire, he gets a few lessons from Yoda and is suddenly holding his own in a lightsaber fight with the Chosen One who studied for decades under both the Jedi and Sith. Now, this isn't ESB's fault, but based on what we saw in the prequels in terms of a Jedi's proficiency with a blade and how much training and discipline was supposed to be required, Luke should have been immobilized by Vader in on parry and been on his way to the Emperor.

Look at Anakin. Yes, he's the Chosen One, but with zero training and never piloting a starship, he takes out the droid control ship almost by accident in Episode I. It happened because it served the story Lucas wanted to tell, not because it was truly a realistic measurement of the powers of a force sensitive.

The way I look at it, this is pretty much precedent in Star Wars for Rey to be strong with limited training. She actually did get owned by Ren on their first meeting on Tako-Dana. And, all of this hand wringing about her being so strong with no training while coming from no lineage actually assumes that there isn't more to the story than meets the eye. There is still 1/3 of the sequel trilogy left to tell. I'd be upset if there weren't a few more twists and turns along the way.

Also, I will say that while I initially used the term "Mary Sue" for Rey after first seeing TFA, I now no longer agree with my original assessment (based on what we've seen in the saga in the past from Anakin and Luke) and actually consider it sexist and offensive.

 

Anakin was certainly a Gary Stue in episode one but Lucas quickly corrected that problem in the next movie. Luke got his ass kicked all the time in the original trilogy.

 

I guess I just don't understand the "Rey is perfect" argument. It doesn't hold true under scrutiny. She's come out victorious in both movies, yes. But, in between...

1. She was owned by Kylo Ren on Tako-Dana
2. She was thrown around like a rag doll and beaten initially by Kylo Ren in their 2nd meeting on Starkiller base until she had her force moment.
3. She was portrayed as naïve and lacking understanding in even basic ideas of the Force when she first met Luke on Acho-To.
4. She would have been crushed like an ant by Snoke had Kylo Ren not intervened. She was thoroughly beaten and humbled by him.
5. Her fight with Kylo over the saber after Snoke's death was essentially a draw. We only saw the flash of the lightsaber being torn apart knocking them both down. She was gone when Kylo came to, but I can't award her a "victory" in that fight just because she came to and fled first. It's a draw.

I see her as about even with Kylo Ren, honestly, and I think what's actually seen on screen bears that out so far. Beyond that, Rey is portrayed as a supremely skilled pilot...just like Anakin and Luke were in their respective trilogies and their piloting skills pushed the envelope in terms of believability as well.

I just think that when we step back and truly look at what's presented in TFA and TLJ, it certainly fits within what Star Wars has given us in the past in terms of suspension of disbelief.

 

No one? Horse****. Stop making up stuff. Plenty of people here love this movie. You didn't. That's okay, but many people do not agree with you.

 

I think TESB is a more even episode, but TLJ's highs rival anything from Empire, and it's a much deeper, more layered experience.

But mind you as much as I admire Empire, and can see the argument that it's the best SW film, I do think it's wildly overrated among SW fans.

 

IMHO, it'll be well-reagarded in them future.... one of a handful of "important" Star Wars films. Time will tell.

 

Well, ESB is my favorite. But ANH is technically a better movie, since it doesn't rely on anything else. Unlike every other Star Wars movie ever made.

 

Yep. From a story POV I'd say this is the most important, challenging episode since 1980. I think TLJ will be considered right alongside ANH and Empire as game changers, while the rest are seen as good, fun romps or mixed bag disappointments.

I use to think ANH was the best SW film. Then I rewatched Empire a few years ago and I finally had to concede that it may be a better overall film.

What ANH has, and always will have, over the other films is it's stand alone power. It's the only SW film that doesn't need any other film. That's huge. Meanwhile Empire might be a near perfect sequel, but it's worthless without ANH and ROTJ.

 

Have to admit I was hoping they would go for a real shock and have Kylo Ren kill her in Episode 8 with this forcing Luke to come out of his exile - probably the only believable way he would do this. Obviously for marketing reasons was going to be unlikely but would have worked for a lot of reasons.

I don't really agree with most of the complaints about LTJ but do feel they could have handled Rey differently but this is mainly the fault of TFA - was difficult to go back from there which put TLJ in an awkward position.

 

Honestly, I would have hated this idea and it would have reflected even more poorly on Luke Skywalker. If one wants to consider TLJ a character assassination of Luke Skywalker, which I don't, it would certainly be tougher to think that he allowed this girl, who he was barely willing to train and who came to him for help, to head to her death. Only her death making him realize he needed to finally join the fight.

I can only imagine the outrage. "Luke was so heartless, he let her go to die! She asked for his help! This was cowardly on Luke's part! This is not how a Jedi would operate! Now, we're supposed to believe he's suddenly going to have a change of heart? Terrible! I hate this movie! It's broken to me!"

Also, all that would effectively have done is return the ST back to being an OT focused character arc. Still, I think that's what some secretly fantasized was going to happen. That was never a realistic notion and I think that's why some are so upset about this trilogy. They thought it was going to be about Han, Luke, and Leia while introducing new characters in the background. It's been exactly the opposite. It's been all about the new characters while the legacy characters get one final curtain call. That's just not acceptable to some.

 

C'mon. In just TFA, she's instantly using force powers that Luke doesn't use till Jedi, which is set how long after ANH? Not to mention she already can fly AND repair the Falcon BETTER than Han and Chewie, who have been flying and repairing the Falcon their entire damn lives. Though they do kinda suck at hyperdrive repair honestly.

By Jedi, Luke had already lost a limb, been blasted out of the sky by an AT-AT, and beaten half to death by a Wampa. What exactly "bad" on that scale has happened to Rey, really? Oh, she had some draws with people that have had years more training than her? That is the "bad" stuff?

I think my journey through college was more difficult than Rey's path has been portrayed.

 

I think we’ll have to take a look at Episode IX to get a better sense of the place if TLJ.

The OT is classic SW. They represent a model of sorts. For all the criticism leveled at the PT I thought its scope and breadth admirable.

The ST seems to be borrowing many of the story elements from the classic period. Specifically, TFA borrows and shifts elements from ANH and TESB, while TLJ does so with TESB and ROTJ. Considering this, what might we see from IX?

The only challenging piece I can think of in TLJ is the acceptance of our heroes fates. Once the older generation passes on this aspect will be less pronounced.


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And Snoke treated Rey's "raw power" like she had the strength of an amusing gnat.

She was powerless against him. She struggled in the fight against the guards. She, like Anakin and Luke before her, faced the limitation of her gifts in the second film.

Now let's move on. This thread is not about Mary Sue Rey vs Anakin and his son.

 

I care. [/lukevoice]

 

I was on the younger side when Empire Strikes Back. I saw it in theaters. It was not even close to as divided as the reactions to Last Jedi. All the kids and adults I knew liked it. Everybody figured that we'd get Han back in next film.

 

Your comparisons to Luke are laughable at best.

During the Death Star attack briefing Luke said that it wasn't impossible as he used to bullseye wamp rats (which were the same size) in his T-16 so he was hardly doing something that he'd never done before.

There was 3 years between Star Wars and ESB for Luke to practice with the training remote, plus you would assume that Ben Kenobi would have also communicating with him during that period and helped him continue to train. There was also the difference in ages which needs to be factored in with Darth Vader being around 45 in EBS while Luke was around 22. For me Luke practicing for three years and being 23 years younger makes it completely believable.

I actually like Rey, but her sudden gaining of force abilities (that have taken others years to learn) has been poorly handed story wise.