ST Will fan backlash affect development of IX?

And if a Skywalker-driven redemption arc is a possible end game through Kylo/Ben, then this trilogy is a very realistic story of family--how does one survive the generational trauma and dysfunction that besets so many families? How does one resolve these issues and move forward and not be one more generation consumed by it?

This applies to both Ben Solo and Rey. Each has been shaped by traumatic and toxic experiences involving their biological families.

How do we all resolve those issues so that we can move beyond the hurt of the past? We chose a family network that is not necessarily biological for support so that we can heal and be in a place to either end mired in the past or transcend the past, leaving that trauma behind and perhaps forgiving the past and our families where they hold no further power over you in a negative manner.

So I still see this trilogy very much about family, but seen through a modern lens and not an overly-romanticized one.

 

Yes. A film or trilogy can still be about family and the Skywalker family without Rey being a Skywalker. What it can't be is a film with Rey Skywalker - so if people wanted that, I can see why they would have preferred such a reveal. But that doesn't mean the trilogy and that angle makes no sense now. It just didn't go where you thought it had to.

 

The ST is incredibly family centric.

But "about family" does not mean it's about folks sitting around for three films having an endless family BBQ.

Rey was defined by her missing family, her longing to belong to family.
Kylo was defined by his family legacy, and his feeling of abandonment and betrayal by his family.
Leia is deeply wounded by the fracturing of her family, but held that family will be healed.
Han was defined by his lost family, choosing to escape into the escapades of his youth to avoid dealing with the pain.
Luke is crushed by the weight of shame, and failure, in the fall of his nephew.
Rose is introduced to us in the throws of grief over her slain sister, and we learn later driven by the abuse her family suffered in the past.

And it's not all brokenness and sorrow. There's a strong theme of found family. We see it in Finn/Rey, Han/Rey, Leia/Poe. We see Kylo, despite having just murdered his own family, being unable to pull the trigger on his mother. We got to still enjoy Han/Chewie, the very model of "found family". We had a beautiful reunion between the Skywalker twins. We got a Leia/Han reunion showing two people who still love each other, the hope of reunion in the air. And I don't know about you, but that now classic Yoda/Luke reunion is the definition of family reunion to me.

Family abounds in this trilogy. Perhaps even to a degree we've not seen in the saga before.

 

@Satipo and @Birkendoc I think you're both missing my point.

The common idea about family is that it ends up being positive, at least for fantasy films. This is not about Rey being a Skywalker any more. This is about the entire theme of family, whatever that is, If Rey is random, then forging a "new" family was something that was highly suggested by anyone in the "Rey Random" camp. Right now all she has is Finn, her best friend. They both had no families and now have each other BUT they hardly shared a scene in TLJ so there's that.

Look at Annie. She spent a good part of her movie looking for or wanting to find her family with the help of Daddy Warbucks. DW and Annie created an unbreakable bond which was clearly a father-daughter relationship. I think that while Rey is an adult, many were hoping that if she wasn't related (which is now true) that she's create a clear family-like bond.

But she's sidelined. She's simply a tool for the Skywalkers to somehow mend their family. Guarantee she's going to be the person to get Kylo to "redeem" himself so that he can join his mother, uncle, and grandfather in 'Force Heaven"". Meanwhile, Rey is still left without family reconciliation. Once again, Rey is marginalized UNLESS they make it so that at least one of her parents DID love her but somehow died because Rey was so special they/he/she needed to protect her. No, I am not talking about any of the OT3, but just whoever Rey's parents were-one of them could have still loved her.

They need to give Rey her own story. Right now her story is how she is helping the Skywalkers live their destiny. Again, she's acting as a tool with no arc.

 

They do need to provide Rey with an arc for 9, and growth, I agree with that. But they will know that as well. Her arc in the first to films makes sense. And she's not just a tool for the Skywalker to somehow mend their family. She's a Jedi now, having learned that neither Skywalker man holds the answer to turning back the tide of darkness this time - it's on her. So it will will be fascinating to see how she does that. That can all play out alongside the Luke and Kylo stuff. And the fact that she is a nobody who finds purpose, and finds belonging (a non blood family) is in sharp contrast with Kylo, who has everything - a family that loved him even if they were not perfect - and who has thrown it all away. It's no coincidence that he is left alone with nothing but a fading memory of his father's die (the die is cast?), while his rival watches patiently, as Rey is surrounded by friends who will support and nurture each other - Kylo feels that as a nobody she has no place in the story. Luke believes that she is the Last Jedi, and when she says "I'm Rey", Poe already knows. That's not marginalisation. And TLJ is about reinforcing that - it doesn't need to show her with her new family in every scene to do that.

9 will continue to do just that.

 

The penultimate scene in TLJ, with Leia, Rey, Finn, Poe, and the Resistance remnant screamed to me "Rey has found her place".

Kylo, alone, having rejected family.
Rey, embraced, having found family.

 

I'm starting to think that there could be s another parallel (since this movie is full of parallels)
But...
What if the beacon and the projection of Han's dice are somehow mirroring one another?

The beacon it's first taken by Leia, then it passes to Finn, then to Poe, finally to Leia again.
The dice is first seen in the MF, when Luke finds it.
However, on Crait he gives the projection of the dice to Leia.
Therefore it's Leia that leave it there for Kylo.
And if we think about, the "real" dice perhaps is still on the MF.
Where Rey is with Leia, Finn and Poe...

I don't know... something like this...

And another thing: in the scene between Finn, Rose and Poe seconds before Finn passes the beacon
to Poe, the latter asks "how did you [Finn and Rose] met" and Rose says "luck" to what he replys "good luck".
And what does the dice symbolize?

Maybe it's me seeing too much... but I'll leave it here, just to see
if someone may come to something.

 

Fan backlash is insignificant in the larger scheme of things. The vast majority of people who contributed to The Last Jedi's considerable gross do not spend hours online dissecting the minutia of of a movie franchise. Also, if Abrams is perceived to have tried to 'course correct,' it will only vindicate all the Rian Johnson naysayers, which is something they might not want to do with his new trilogy on the horizon. I don't think Abrams is the kind of director to let that sort of thing distract him from just trying to make the best possible film he can, either. He needs to make the film he needs to make.

With that said he is a guy who knows how to pace these sorts of things really well, and keep a general audience engaged with whatever he puts on screen. I have no doubt that IX will be a likeable rousing finish to the saga that will make tons of money. All without worrying about what hardcore fans have said online about the previous episode.

It's also worth bearing in mind that some of us actually really liked The Last Jedi, myself included.

 

I think that's it. JJ will do what he would have done pretty much regardless. I'm sure they'll look at common criticisms and see if there's anything he feels is worth bearing in mind, but let's not also forget that there were a group of haters (almost the exact same haters!) praying that RJ would correct JJ's "awful choices" - not bold enough, not enough answers, Snoke is awful, this had better not be ESB 2.0 and Luke had better not be Old Ben 2.0 - people should be careful what they wish for

 

JJ really helps a lot. I think many fans will be much more cautious going in. One positive for JJ is expectations will be lower.

 

I think the issue with saying that one of the main themes is "family is who you choose" right now is that fact that Rey has spent little time with her "family" in these films. Han was killed. She spent TFA with Finn but spent virtually no time with him in TLJ or anyone in her "family" but Chewy. Rey is overly hung up on her real family in TLJ.

For the flack that Guardians of the Galaxy gets in relation to Star Was, it provides an example of how to craft a film around the idea that family is who you choose (which was the main theme of GOTG Vol. 2). The characters actually interact, you can feel family dynamics, you believe Drax when he says that they can't leave anyone behind because they are family, you see that just because Peter's dad is his biological father, he wasn't his actual one, you feel sadness when his "father" dies as Peter looks on. Even though they are just "throwaway" Marvel comic characters, I feel much more attached to any of them (even the CGI tree) than I do to any of the new characters in the ST.

Who are the main trio in these films? Rey-Finn-Kylo? Rey-Finn-Poe? Rey has barely interacted with Poe. Finn has barely interacted with Kylo (though more than the first). I'm not sure where the focus is, and then they try to make Rose a lead as well without fleshing out the characters and creating dynamics. If they wanted to hit home the family theme, perhaps Finn could have said "I have to get away from this ship to save my friend. She doesn't have anyone else in the world. She's part of our family." Make the Resistance seem like a family. All I got was hidden plans, where there didn't need to be, tension, and coldness.

 

Both JJ and RJ's pre-SW work provide enormous insight into the kind of Star Wars film they'd make.

So yes, barring any kind of shocking shift in approach and style, IX will be more of a rousing crowd pleaser than IX. Because those are the kinds of films that JJ has specialized in for decades. I mean even though I think TLJ is a richer, heartier experience than TFA, know that the latter is a more fun, enjoyable film to take in.

But those hoping that JJ will come along and invalidate TLJ? That he'll try and correct some perceived wrongs committed by Rian? Well you better hope that KK and company see TLJ in such a troublesome light, and you'd also better hope that JJ was lying about how much he loved the script for the TLJ.

Me? I'm more inclined to think that JJ was inspired by RJ's film, and will continue to press envelopes. He'll just throw a super thick nostalgic wash over the whole deal, which will manage to distract quite a few people from the more divisive, unexpected choices.

You know, much as he did with TFA.

 

JJ not only has a chance to make his film great, but also to make RJ's film seem better if he connects them well.

 

There is no "main trio" in the ST (so far). SW hasn't tried to replicate the "main trio" dynamic in any of their episodes since 1983.

The ST leans more into duo dynamics and changing groups.

 

Side note: Any chance that scene was also supposed to look like The Last Supper? I can't remember exactly what it looked like but wasn't Rey in the center surrounded on both sides by everybody else?

 

@skybender

Maybe that is why Yondu’s death at the end of GOTG 2 was more impactful then Luke’s battery running out in TLJ.

 

Yondu's Mary Poppins moment worked better too.

 

I always considered Anakin, Padme, and Obi-Wan to be the trio of the prequels. And now Finn, Rey, and Poe are the new triad.

It's a good formula, they should stick with it.

 

The "Big 3" trio didn't just refer to three main characters. It was always about the group dynamic, the closeness, the chemistry, between the three. That existed from the first Star Wars on through the final moments of ROTJ.

There is no equivalent in the PT and ST. What kind of relationship do Obi Wan and Padme have? Padme is really only linked in closeness to one other major character, that's Anakin. Besides the arena fight this "trio" has got very little happening as a group. Heck Obi-Wan was a supporting character in TPM who spent most of his time with Qui-Gon and Jar Jar.

Poe literally just formally met Rey at the very close of TLJ. His ST time has been spent primarily with Finn and Leia. The closest "trio" we've had so far was Han/Rey/Finn, but that's really a quad thanks to Chewie having a sizable role in TFA. There is nothing going on so far between Rey, Finn and Poe as a "trio". Hell the presence of Kylo throws this whole format to hell.

So no, it's absolutely not a formula. A couple of character promo shots doesn't change the nature of the writing. Nobody since 1983 has bothered to replicate the famous trio format that a large part of the OT was built around.

 

Rey's most important relationships so far have been with Kylo, Han and Luke. Her main drama and the one she's closest to is with Kylo. Her attempts to gain relationships were mostly in search of her parents, only to not find the answers she was seeking by looking to a past that never existed. Her main teacher in the Force has been Kylo ever since she began to copy things she saw him do. Her relationships with Han, Leia and Luke have also turned into a desire to save their family. The only reason Leia isn't quite as major in Rey's journey is due to Carrie's passing preventing her from getting a movie where that would have been explored, going by the trend. Whatever becomes of Ben Solo is her future. He's her connection to the Force, the future of them both figuring out what it means to have a combined destiny of Light rising to meet the Dark to balance the Force and the one who has helped her face the truth about herself she didn't want to face. She, likewise, adds conflict to his struggle. She makes him want to embrace the Light he's been trying so hard to rid himself of, if only to save someone he loves after rejecting that only caused him more pain and self-loathing.

Her destiny is more an exploration of the Force (the A-plot) and her part in that, not especially the Resistance vs. First Order (B-plot) that the sidekicks and supporting cast are involved with.

She only met Poe at the end of TLJ, who was a glorified Wedge who wasn't meant to survive the first act of TFA. He's now there to be Leia's protégé who will take over for her. Definitely never meant to be an important character. Oscar's performance did that. Most of his development has been with Leia.

Finn's story is now with Rose, his defeat of his abuser, Phasma, and whatever becomes of the Stormtroopers (with a history of child abduction in their backgrounds). Poe and Rey put him on his journey, but his is a separate one. Rose's introduction closes that door. Rose was created precisely because putting Finn and Poe together on a buddy adventure wouldn't have challenged or grown either character.

 

While I won't be seeing it in theatres, I am curious as to what their approach will be. Chris Terrio has, supposedly, said that IX will be the movie that ties all three trilogies together, and that is hard to do without including a whole lot of Skywalker. Which would contradict the whole "moving beyond the Skywalkers thing.

 

I can think of a few very simple and practical ways that are probably already baked into their thinking for 9, that would *address* some of the issues/ flesh out the answers they were already going to explore (depending on your pov).

1 - make good on Luke's promise to return more powerful than imagined. Have him guide Rey (wouldn't have to be much, just enough to make an impact - look at Yoda's one scene in TLJ), have him *haunt* or cajole Kylo, have him display new powers in the spirit world. This is not only a natural extension of what we see in TLJ, but would go some way to redressing the imbalance some feel exists with Luke's arc as it now stands. This would also enable more of the next point:
2 - flesh out more of the backstory to Ben's turn, including the build up to his "coming out" at the academy. Doesn't have to be much at all, and could come between Luke and Kylo or Luke and Leia, but it would ease the "we don't have the context for Ben's turn yet" complaints, could re-emphasise why Luke was right to believe Ben had already turned - say for example we learn that Ben had already murdered someone in a Tom Riddle style set-up - and would also lead on to the next point:
3 - reveal a little more context to Snoke and the FO. This is the one I think is the least needed, but a couple of lines, I think played out through Kylo somehow, to highlight where the FO came from and what - if anything - Snoke's ultimate goal was, would also help those who feel this has been ignored so far. Perhaps our heroes have to venture into the heart of enemy territory in the Beyond or something. I don't know, and after TFA I don't want to speculate too much in terms of specifics.
4 - Tone down the humour a little. Just a notch or two. It can still be funny, but just ease back a little.

All those are easily doable and very possibly already part of the plan. Part of the problem is that we're judging off the back of two films, when none of the trilogies has provided all the answers with one film left to go. And RJ always said TLJ would give some answers, but far from all, and that would it would raise as many questions as it answered. This was true with ESB as well. I think they have broadly known what the answers were for a long time. We just worry that they aren't coming. And in some areas, I'm sure they won't. But I think they fully intended to reveal the full picture in 9, rather than 8, and so long as people like that picture, that's OK.

Carrie's passing robs them of one natural and crucial arc, so it will be fascinating to see where they go with that. Personally I think I'd start with Leia's funeral and go from there.

 

GL broadened the story from a trio in the PT, in TPM you have Neeson, McGregor, Portman and added the kid. In AOTC and ROTS it was pretty much an assemble with McDiarmid and Frank Oz joining McGregor, Portman and Christensen. Going ino the ST we now have four leads with two very prominent co-leads, whether people like it or not that is likely the way things will go.

 

The backlash will affect Ep IX. It seems every week I am seeing Rian Johnson doing interviews to explain this and justify that etc. Disney should now understand that you must do more than just slap the Star Wars title on a movie and add the John Williams music.

I expect to see an enhancement of Luke's powers.
Better explanations of Rey powers/origin
Hints of Snoke's backstory
A powerful frightening Kylo Ren +/-Redemption
Rey may adopt Skywalker last name as tribute to Luke.
Restoration of the Jedi order in some form.
Finally, do away with the political commentary and focus on making a story free of plot holes.

 

@DARTHSHAME

The idea of adopting the Skywalker name was something I really thought was going to happen. Now? No way IMHO. They truly want to bury the Skywalker Saga and really it ended in TLJ. Because Kylo is not getting redeemed and even if he does, he will die doing so while Leia will not be in It (RIP Princess!) and Luke will be nothing more then a ghost cameo most likely. You are correct that Episode IX could be a great opportunity for them to have Luke come back and really explore what a force ghost can do (which has been around for forty years but really has not been fully flushed out) or follow what GL wanted for Obi-Wan in ROTJ and have him return in the flesh. Again I highly doubt he will one will happen.