The Last Jedi Discussion Thread - **UNTAGGED SPOILERS WITHIN**

I think I said it in here before, but I think Holdo not telling Poe her plan makes perfect sense for several reasons:
1) They know they've been followed through hyperspace, something that's not supposed to be possible. So two thoughts come to mind:

a) They've developed the technology
b) There's a spy in the resistance​

Occam's Razor says that while A is certainly a possibility, B is the more likely answer.

2)Poe disobeyed direct orders from Leia, a General- even going so far as to just turn the comm off. This action loses them an entire fleet of bombers and all the people who were aboard those bombers. Sure they got one dreadnought, but at what cost.

3) Even though Poe's plan worked (for certain values of worked) he was demoted for failure to follow orders.

So Holdo, probably having no choice but to think that the possibility there is a spy is high and Poe just got an entire fleet killed. Nope, I wouldn't share with him either. The best way to keep a secret is for as few people as possible to know, and even Leia didn't seem to think Poe needed to know this plan until it was already past the point of no return.

I don't think Holdo's plan was inherently bad: They couldn't jump to lightspeed, they couldn't fight their way out and it probably would have worked had DJ not spilled the beans, which was totally Finn's fault for talking to Poe in a place where this shady character they clearly didn't completely trust anyway could hear.

The best thing all around would have been for Poe to share his plan (though I understand why he didn't, he thought Holdo was going to get them killed and she probably wouldn't have listened to him anyway) and they all could have worked together. But that would have taken away a lot of the tense moments, so I don't think it would have been as good of storytelling.

 

I don't think Poe's attitude helped either. He's unrepentant when it came to disobeying orders and the loss of so many fighters and all their bombers because they destroyed a dreadnought and was angry about being demoted. So Holdo sees a man that's more interested in blowing stuff up than helping everyone.

And him asking her what the plan is probably is a breach in protocol seeing that he was demoted to Captain and commands a fighter squadron. Forgive me if I am wrong but him asking her to tell him her plan could be viewed as the Commander of the Blue Angels asking a general what a military strategy is that the Blue Angels aren't going to be involved in. If he needed to know the plan she would tell him.

Not to mention the possible spy thing but they seemed to know/suspect that the First Order was tracking them through hyperspace. 'Loose Lips Sink Ships'

Really it boils down to a lack of trust: Poe didn't trust Holdo and didn't have faith that there was a good plan and if he was needed he would be notified. Could she have told him the plan? Maybe but he wasn't needed for it to work; it would be like telling the Mess Hall personal what the plan was.


My FIL was watching a program talking about the security around Area 51 yesterday and it was insane! When they left the base for their day off they had to hand over their base ID before they left to prevent tampering/duplication and when they returned it would be matched to them via their picture in their file and most of them didn't know what they were working on because it was so compartmentalized.

 

So many people don't seem to get that Lando's responsibility was to the people of Cloud City, not Han and Leia.

When he could not save the city, he discharged his responsibilities by giving the evac' suggestion, then helped the Rebels.

Besides, the Empire arrived before the 'Falcon did.

In my headcanon, the cloud cars firing on the 'Falcon, was Lando's attempt at warning them off.

 

This makes sense. DJ, so far, has no qualities.

 

That's a good theory, if the movie had shown/told us that instead of just having Holdo saying "I don't need to tell you", I would not have any real problems with it.

Fully agree

The problem is that it is not just Poe that don't trust her. Rose has no problem not telling her, among the people that are active in the mutininy was at least one of the bridge crew, and the rest of the Resistance members (beside the three with Holdo) don't seem to have any problem with Poe taking over. This shows that Holdo has done a bad job showing why they should follow her or that she actually have a real plan and not just limping along hoping for something to come up.

 

That's because your parents didn't vacation in Dubrovnik for twenty plus years. Canto Bight was not a thing to me. Like, I knew it was Dubrovnik and the surrounding area. I wish I had had the chance to just go there, crash at our family friends' home in the hills and beg to be an extra.

 

@Sith-I-5 has an excellent point about Lando.

Something else that I remembered is Poe doesn't go to Holdo to tell her about the First Order tracking them through hyperspace and present to her their plan and then send more people than just a newly defected Stormtrooper, a mechanic and a droid to find the Code Breaker. He instead recruits others to help get Finn, Rose and BB-8 off the ship without being detected.

Holdo's plan could have worked as others have stated since it involved sending everyone down to Crait underneath the First Order's tracking equipment while a small group stayed behind to pilot the ship for one last hyperspace jump and the First Order follows leaving the Resistance to wait until the coast is clear and then leave for parts 'unknown' and to their allies.

 

I think the idea with DJ, as with some of the other things in TFA, was to subvert expectations. He is presented as a kind of Han/Lando expy, you know the cynical rogue that when it come down to it chose to help the heroes, except that DJ don't help the heroes and instead sell them out to save his own skin and get some money.

 

Yup. There had to be an amoral dude with no qualities, at some point. Or a cheeka.

 

They gave it enougth new look for it to work for me

Just like Ahch-To stopped being not-Ireland when they had animals, buildings and clothing there that you did not see on Skellig Michael

And then there is the people there was dressing like they belong there, instead of having the 'scoundrels & smugglers'-look, that makes it its own world and not just not-Dubrovnik

 

But the stables are a thing, too. Watch that Viasat History documentary series and it will be nothing more than a spaced-up medieval city.

 

Fixed it for you

 

@Gamiel is on to something: in ANH when we meet Han he's kind of a jerk who seems to care only about being paid but he comes back and saves Luke's life so he can blow up the Death Star and then sticks around because deep down he wants to do the right thing. Luke is wide eyed and wants to get out there and help people and Leia is standing up to tyranny and kicking butt with words and a blaster. Vader is the scary bad guy we hate and admire for whatever reason

Then in TFA and TLJ we get a Stormtrooper that froze and because he didn't want to be reconditioned he freed Poe, because he needed a pilot and even admits that he's only freeing Poe because he doesn't know how to fly, he leads Rey on about being a Resistance Member and more than willing to bail on his new friends because he's afraid and to top it all off he leads the Resistance that he knows more about Starkiller than he really knows to save Rey. In TLJ he's completely okay with running away from the Resistance to be with Rey. It isn't until Canto Bight and DJ's betrayal does he commit to the Resistance; until then he was only looking out for himself.

Rey spends practically the whole movie after leaving Jakku wanting to go back to wait for people who she knows aren't coming back for her and for most of both movies she sees the perfect parents/fathers in Han and Luke without realizing that both of them aren't perfect or that would be a good father to her.

Poe's a hotshot pilot and he knows it and needed to grow up so to speak and learn to see the bigger picture.

Kylo Ren/Ben Solo has been screwed over by the adults in his life and is messed up emotionally because of the actions of his parents, uncle and Snoke. He's 'a child wearing a mask' to hide how hurt and lost he is.

We are led to believe that DJ will help Finn and Rose and he even gives Rose her pendant back, letting us to believe he isn't as big of a jerk as we initially thought, then he betrays them and tells the First Order about the Resistance's plans for money and freedom.


There are good people out there in bad situations and there are bad people out there looking to prey on good people just trying to help. A personal story: years and years ago, when i was probably around four years old, my parents stopped to help a family on the side of the road. Both my parents had ominous feelings about stopping but stopped anyway. My Dad believes to this day if he and my Mother hadn't had us with them in the van, seven/eight children, that they would have been killed by the couple

 

Okay, okay...

Thank you, Misty! I have been waiting for this.

Kylo is borderline, just like his grandpa. Eight out of nine criteria (will elaborate when back home after the meeting). Male borderlines usually go undetected, unlike the women who are put in therapy early and labelled as "insane" by the society. 75% of the diagnosed patients are female and most achieve partial to complete remission. The others, yeah, kill themselves, disfigure themselves or switch from auto-aggression to aggression - which Kylo and Vader both did.

So, yeah, when people write that he has no emotions at all, that he's a "psychopath" - they're doing the opposite of what they did with Alex from Fatal Attraction - that woman IS a psychopath, yet the internet calls her borderline. The difference is huge. Psychopathy is rooted in pure aggression, borderline PD is rooted in a screwed up childhood, absent, neglecting or hurtful parents and there is almost always a push/pull, black/white type of a world view - making the person easy to manipulate and use as a pawn - Snoke perfectly knew what he was doing, until his pawn turned on him. But was that enough to learn a lesson? Nope. BECAUSE CONTROL. OUT OF CHAINS. I'M A BIG BOY NOW1!1!!!!1

Lookie here:
Sympathy For the Devil — The Insidious Trap of Borderline Men — A Kylo Ren Exposé

I saw the article when I googled "kylo ren borderline" to prove my point and I read it now - the author is unaware of some points I made, so, addendum:

"severe illness" - nope, not necessarily

"poor prognosis" - see what I said above

And now...is that the same as a psychopath? LOLNOPE.

Psychopaths are more like Palpatine, narcissists are more like Hux (or, well, that person the internet thinks is a narcissist...). While there's no doubt that Kylo IS a villain, to some of us, just like Anakin, he's relatable to a certain extent, from a certain point of view, until he absolutely crosses the line at the end of each film.

The point being? Don't put complex villains in the same box as the simple, straightforward ones. It's damaging to many.

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Other examples of subvert expectations is that Rey has nobodies as parents and no previous training; Luke is on Ahch-To to die, not to find some Jedi secret that will help him redeem the badguy/rebuild the order/save the day, and he wants to die not because of something he found/confirmed on Ahch-To but because he lost faith in himself; Snoke gets no backstory and is quickly killed off; we don’t find out about how Maz go Anakin’s ‘sabre; Rey don’t lose a hand; we don’t find out about the Knights of Ren, they don’t even appear; etc.

And Rey, he has shown himself willing to die for her.

I was not really seeing that, she had more of a hero-worship regarding them to me

 

I have a query.

If the Resistance hyperjumped a course that involved one or two course corrections, would the First Order straight line jump to their coordinates, or follow their same route?

If the former, the Resistance could have jumped to the far side of an asteroid field, and waited.

@Lady_Misty - Finn was trying to avoid Rey following Leia's tracker into the ambush. He was thinking about Rey, not himself

 

But not just destroy the tracker? Yes he could have been trying to save her by leave but his actions could read as he cares more about himself/Rey than about anything else and he was seeking to join her wherever she was. It isn't until he wakes up and Rose is dragging him to a higher up does he offer any information: to prevent himself from being locked up/executed for his actions.

So Finn could have been thinking about Rey and Luke's safety when he tried to jump ship or he could have been only thinking about his own wants and desires.

Of course the argument hinges on whether or not to device worked both ways; could they track Rey as well as she them?

In the end it doesn't matter because at the end of the film Finn is wiling to fight for what he believes is right; he just needed to do some character growth to get to that point.

 

The conversation has kind of moved on while I was typing this, but I'm gonna post it anyway, heh.

I enjoy TLJ more and more each time I watch it (4x now), in part because of hearing different viewpoints and interpretations from these boards.

The only part I still have any real issue with is the movie's approach to the Holdo/Poe dynamic. Yes, Poe made some very bad mistakes throughout this movie. He's not blameless at all. Yes, Holdo is well within her rights to not tell Poe (or anyone else) the plan. She can keep all the details to herself if she wants. Not everyone needs to know the details, and sometimes that causes additional problems. My issue is that she never even says she has a plan. Poe specifically asks her two separate times to just tell them if she has a plan, and both times she either says literally nothing or gives some platitude about hope. If Poe had said, "Do you have a plan?" and Holdo says, "Yes," and nothing more, no details, nada, then boom, I'm on her side for the rest of the movie while things play out. Poe, you bad mutineer, you. But I can't get there with how things occur in the movie as-is. Holdo saying, "Yes, but there are security concerns" due to a possible traitor would have been icing on the cake.

I wonder if there's a cut scene or if something happened off-scene to escalate things between Holdo and Poe. In their first conversation when Holdo is given command, Poe is fairly civil about things... except for lying about his current rank, but he's not yelling or arguing in a heated voice, just somewhat frustrated and wanting to know what's going on. Holdo tells him to stick to his post and follow orders (which she hasn't even really given at that point, but I digress...). The scene ends with Poe standing there looking put-out. IIRC, the next time we see him going to talk to Holdo, Commander D'Acy says Poe's been banned from the bridge. Why? What happened that would cause something that drastic?

Besides, it's not like Poe is some low-ranking Resistance member. From what we've seen in TFA and TLJ, he's the highest-ranking starfighter pilot present in the movie scenes. A squadron leader at least, maybe more of a wing commander. That's nothing to sneeze at when the Resistance is as small as it seems to be in TLJ. He commanded the starfighters in TFA on Takodana and against Starkiller Base. In TLJ he was apparently in overall command of the X-wings, A-wings, and bombers. (And I do wonder why Leia didn't bypass Poe during his disobedience during the bombing run and instead directly tell Tallie or the bombers to abort. Maybe because she knew they would follow Poe anyway, which makes it all the more obvious that the pilots consider him their leader [regardless of if he's a good leader or not] and that in turn makes it all the more important that Holdo not shut him out completely later on, or she risks alienating the rest of the starfighter pilots.) I kind of compare Poe's position in the Resistance leadership to that of ANH's Red Leader, Garven Dreis. I was trying to think of an analogy where Leia and Dodonna didn't bother to tell Dreis that they had any idea how to blow up the Death Star when it was bearing down on them, but it's not a good comparison since Dreis had to actively participate in the plan. Poe has been shown in TFA and early TLJ to be in the same peer group as the rest of the Resistance leadership as he participated in planning and leading high-profile missions. Suddenly going from that to "you are not trustworthy enough to even know there is A plan" is jarring and, IMHO, a big leap, even when taking the bombing run mistakes into consideration.

And now I'll try again, probably unsuccessfully, to just let this go, heh.

 

Except the ships that went down to the planet didn't have hyperspace capability. Once they were down there, they were stuck until someone came to get them. Better plan: before the convoy ships ran out of fuel, have the entire fleet jump into hyperspace in different directions. They could contact their allies from their own locations, and meet up later. The FO could only track one ship.

Better, jump in different directions, then send one ships on the suicidal hyperspace jump to destroy the FO ship, a la Holdo. Tracker is destroyed, rest of the Resistance fleet is safe.

Nope, sorry. Poe maybe didn't think things through, but frankly, neither did Holdo. Or Leia, for that matter.

 

I don't think he was lying about his rank, he had just not fully processed that he had been demoted and therefor just gave the rank he was used to saying he had.

Do we know that? The ship used by Rose and Finn had hyperspace capability.

Do we know that? Maybe it was capable to track many ships, and they did not need Snoke's flying wing to do that since the FO was capable of tracking them before that ship appeared

 

Thought I remembered Rose saying that, the FO could only track one ship. And if those little transports had hyperspace capability, again, why would they not scatter in multiple directions, leaving the FO to go after the main cruiser? I don't think Finn & Rose were on one of the transports, they were on a regular shuttle, which got trashed on Canto Bight, then ended up in the stolen star yacht.

 

@Gamiel : Do we know that? The ship used by Rose and Finn had hyperspace capability.

I hope not. I'd much rather ship Finn and Rey.

 

I'm a proud Finn/Rose shipper. I will go down with this 'ship.

 

I wish I weren't on mobile so I could find the video but Kelly Marie Tran ships (yes, her word) Finn/Poe.

And so do I

 

Well played, @Ewok Poet.