PT I think The Phantom Menace is better than Attack Of The Clones

AOTC on its own is a very special and envocative SW film. Quite moody and dramatic yet pleasing to the eye whenever color, sound, music or the visuals appears on the screen. Which is all the time.

I feel that Anakin is not as “easily” likable compared to Luke. The criticism is definitely valid in certain areas but I find him incredibly good in AOTC. You have to put your mind less on the surface and more “across the stars”.

Anakin is odd in that his character somewhat more difficult to get into. Then again, I was into James Dean instantly so it isn’t hard for me Rather rooting for him(besides his hero moments) you end up feeling sorry for him.

 

Well, Anakin is an antihero. That’s kinda the point. He’s “a protagonist who lacks the attributes that make a heroic figure, as nobility of mind and spirit, a life or attitude marked by action or purpose, and the like.”

His defining trait is his extreme separation anxiety. He would rather see people suffer than be separated from his wife or his mother. That’s not a hero. He’s also incredibly moody, petulant, unstable and violent.

He only becomes a true hero and a true Jedi in the last few minutes of his life. That’s the story.

 

Anakin is definitely not an antihero in TPM. In fact, I clearly remember fans complaining back in 1999 then he was too nice for a future Vader and he should be more like John Connor from Terminator 2. As an adult, he tries to follow the Jedi code and help people around him when he can (even the clone soldiers, for example) but strays off the path due to internal flaws and outside pressures. He's dualistic but it's not as if he murders or robs (or even complains) every second of the screentime for no reason like some haters claim.

With that said, there're different definitions of anti-hero. To me it seems a modern term that implies a certain degree of cynicism on behalf of both the author and the character and I don't think what Lucas was going for. I'd say Han in ANH is more of a typical antihero with his disregard for the "hokey religions" and mercenary attitudes.

 

He’s an antihero in the other two. Han Solo starts as an antihero but progresses. He shows incredibly selflessness and concern for the well-being of others throughout the trilogy. He goes back to save Luke Skywalker at the end of the first film. He risks his own life to try to find and rescue Luke at the beginning of the second. When he’s about to be lowered into carbonite, possibly to his death, he tells Chewbacca to stand down and protect Princess Leia. By the end of the third film, he tells Leia that her happiness is more important than his and offers to stand aside and let her be with Luke if that’s what she wants.

Anakin, on the other hand, is very possessive and selfish. He frequently lashes out in murderous rage whenever something or someone separates him from his mother or his wife. He slaughters the Tusken village in a mad vengeful rage after his mother dies. He nearly abandons his mission after Padmé Amidala falls out of the gunship, and only continues with it after a severe tongue-lashing from Obi-Wan Kenobi. He turns to the dark side and betrays all of his friends, colleagues and stated ideals rather than be separated from his wife later on. When he fears that she’s turned on him, he lashes out in a violent rage against her and strangles her.

If Batman is an antihero, so is Anakin Skywalker. We never see Batman do half the things Anakin does.

 

Han is not an antihero after he comes back to save Luke. He can still be sarcastic, but he's not selfish anymore, he's ready to help his friends and even the Rebels whereas before he only cared about himself and possibly Chewbacca. He has an arc in ANH but stays a hero in the other two (kind of wish Lucas gave him and Leia more development I admit).

As for Anakin, a lot of exaggeration or oversimplification here. Little Anakin decided to leave his mother even though it was extremely difficult for him. But he remained a Jedi and stayed away from her for ten years until he started having nightmares about her. When he asks Watto about her, he doesn't attack him even though it's his former master. Even when he goes into the Tusken camp he sneaks in quietly. If Shmi doesn't die, I assume he'll be more preoccupied with saving her rather than killing anyone (except in self-defense). Only when she dies, he breaks down, gives in to the rage and the Dark Side (Yoda says he's in pain). He confesses to Padme and admits that as a Jedi he should know better.
Which to me implies that the Jedi Code actually matters to him and he knows he was in the wrong and he's not happy with himself.

And yes, he argues with Obi-Wan after Padme's fallen off the ship but he's not trying to attack him or anyone else. And it's not the tongue-lashing that stops Anakin but rather a pointed reminder that Padme would choose duty over her personal feelings. Basically, Anakin is at the stage of his life where he's still not mature enough to control his impulses when the strong emotions come into play so he needs someone to help him calm down (Obi-Wan or Padme).

Even though he's somewhat unhealthily obsessed with Padme he's willing to be separate from her for long stretches of time instead of leaving the Jedi Order. He only freaks out when he starts having nightmares about Padme again. Before that, he follows the Jedi Code and even hesitates to kill Dooku because it's no the Jedi Way. Doesn't sound to me like someone who has no moral values.He also wants to save Obi-Wan even though Palpatine order to leave him. He even wants to help the cannon fodder. Someone who's truly selfish wouldn't have done it.

I'm not defending all of Anakin's actions what he's done my objection is claiming that's he's some sort of a psycho all the time while he clearly tries to follow the Jedi standards and breaks them because of his pride and greed. Seriously, if he's all about lashing out when his attachments are threatened, that cheapens his turn back to the light too. It would basically mean he wants to kill the Emperor in rage simply because he doesn't want to lose his newly found son instead of a deliberate decision to sacrifice himself and his power to save someone he loves.

Basically, his flaw is greed and pride and, coupled with a detached Jedi Order upbringing, the pressure of being the Chosen One and Palpatine's influence distorts normal emotions and relationships and desire to achieve something significant in their lives.

As for who's antihero or who's not, it's a question of terminology (and even characters like Batman evolved over the years). If someone considers Anakin an antihero, that's fine, but I haven't seen Anakin on antihero lists (probably because of his redemption) and to me he reminds me more of classic fallen heroes or perhaps Tolkien's Turin, Isildur or Boromir (all of them driven to ruin by pride and/or fear).

 

That was different. When he redeemed himself, he did so to prevent Luke Skywalker from suffering. He sacrificed his own life to prevent further suffering. That’s when he truly became a Jedi. When he decided to put the needs of someone else (his son) above those of himself.

With his mother, it was all about saving himself the pain of separation from her. Notice how at his mom’s funeral, her husband’s eulogy is about what a great person she was, and expresses gratitude for having known her, whereas Anakin’s eulogy to his mother is all about himself.

Same with when he turned to the dark side to save Padmé. He explicitly says to Palpatine that he wants to save Padmé because he “can’t bear to live without her”. He’s talking about his own damn feelings, not about helping her. He knows full well that she’d rather die than have him turn to the dark side to “save” her. That’s why he strangles her when she finally turns against him. Because it was never about her.

He saved Luke because for the first time in his life, he stopped focusing on his own damn feelings.

Well, his main flaw is that he’s so deathly afraid of the pain of loss that he’ll do anything to prevent himself from going through that. Literally anything…including murder. Name me a single instance in the movies where he ever put the greater good ahead of his own feelings. He would rather see others suffer than deal with the emotional pain of loss. To paraphrase Spock, he is utterly incapable of placing the needs of the many above the needs of the one.

This is why Luke succeeds and Anakin fails. Darth Vader tries to turn Luke by appealing to his fear of loss…and it nearly works. But Luke can’t quite do it. He is not willing to become an agent of evil in order to ease his own pain. Han and Leia may very well die on Endor. And obviously, Luke doesn’t want that. But he also knows they wouldn’t want him to turn to the dark side in order to save them. He’s willing to put their needs, as well as those of the galaxy, above his own. Luke is willing to sacrifice his own life in order to prevent further suffering. That is when Luke becomes a true Jedi. This, in turn, inspires Vader to do the same minutes later. That is when Anakin becomes a true Jedi.

I also would put Isildur in a different category from Anakin and Boromir. All three did terrible things, but Anakin and Boromir eventually redeemed themselves by sacrificing their own lives in order to save the lives of others. Isildur succumbed to his greed and never overcame it. In the end, Isildur’s greed destroyed him. He should’ve destroyed the One Ring, but he didn’t. He gave into greed, and never turned back. Anakin and Boromir eventually turned back.

 

All of this actually makes him fallen hero rather than an antihero. The difference, as I see it, is that he does follow the path of the Jedi up until his turn, and even after the Tusken incident. Of course, his secret marriage is a violation of the code but not an amoral thing per se (and probably something the Jedi shouldn't be against, knowing Lucas's views on families). But as far as the galaxy is concerned, he's a Jedi, he goes on assignments with Obi-Wan before and during the Clone Wars, risking his life every day and even being separated from his wife not knowing if he'll ever see her again.

Correction: adult life. He returned to his childhood self who knew nothing of greed and wanted to help strangers.

I'm not sure why everyone is ignoring 9 year old Anakin. I know he's not a fully formed person yet but he knows right from wrong.

Since we're arguing about the definition, I've checked some "authority" websites. So on, Wikipedia, there's an antihero list, but I don't see Anakin there
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fictional_antiheroes

However, on the Tragic hero entry, right away:
Many iconic characters in literature, theater, and film are considered by some critics to follow the archetype of the tragic hero. These include Anakin Skywalker of the Star Wars prequels (1999–2005) and Return of the Jedi (1983), Okonkwo of Chinua Achebe's Things Fall Apart (1958), Arthas Menethil of Warcraft (2003-2008), Stannis Baratheon of A Song of Ice and Fire (1996–present) and Game of Thrones (2011–2015).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragic_hero

TV Tropes
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FallenHero

• Anakin Skywalker, who got three whole movies of Start of Darkness.
• Skywalker may have been the most infamous Jedi to turn evil, but he was hardly the only one. Count Dooku, the villain in Attack of the Clones, was once a member of the order too, and Expanded Universe books often feature "Dark Jedi" as villains, many of whom were formerly real Jedi, who are too numerous to list.
• Anakin's own grandson Jacen Solo would follow his path in the Expanded Universe, becoming the villainous Darth Caedus.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TragicHero
Anakin Skywalker from Star Wars is a Tragic Hero in the prequels. He is a hero of the Republic, gets the girl, helps win the war, and saves his Master a number of times. His Fatal Flaw is the fear of losing those he cares about, which feeds a hunger for power to prevent it from ever happening and eventually turned him into the frightening Black Knight Darth Vader.

• His main Fatal Flaw is the desire for control- a concept that had evaded him his entire life. As a slave he had no control over his life and neither does he as a Jedi. His fear of death and the death of his loved ones is a representation of his need to control EVERYTHING, even what should be uncontrollable (i.e death). This flaw is tucked away for much of the prequel trilogy with only odd mentions (he mentions a couple of times to Padme how he wants to control the galaxy) but fully reveals itself in the OT where Vader is the epitome of tyranny and order. With all his loved ones dead or now his enemy, all that the man has left is his intense need for control.
• The Force Awakens puts a twist on this: to the Dark Side-affiliated Kylo Ren, Vader, not Anakin, was a Tragic Hero whose Fatal Flaw was his compassion for his son, which resulted in his death.

 

But he’s not afraid of his own death. He’s afraid of living without his attachments. If she fell in love with somebody else and tried to leave him, would he be able to let her go? Or would he react like a violent, jealous, abusive husband? My money is on the latter. Anakin is incapable of doing what Han Solo does in this scene:



The one time she did try to leave, here’s how he reacted:



Violent rage.

Luke, Han and Leia are all capable of selfless love. Anakin isn’t until the very end.

Yes, that’s an argument from authority. The dictionary defines an antihero as “a protagonist who lacks the attributes that make a heroic figure, as nobility of mind and spirit”. Anakin is violent, full of rage, selfish, jealous and possessive. I would not call any of those traits noble.

Name me a single instance before saving Luke where he was able to set aside his jealousy and possessiveness. Where he was actually willing to make a sacrifice in the name of the greater good.

The thing with Anakin is that his fall was frankly unpreventable given the person he was. It would’ve happened sooner or later. He didn’t even fall so much as end up at the logical result of all his life choices up to that point. Once his mother died and he made that vow to become all-powerful to prevent people from dying, he had already sealed his fate.

When was he ever capable of making the choice that Luke makes at the end of his journey? The choice to put the needs of others above his own needs? When did he ever do it? When did he ever make a sacrifice for the greater good. He tried to have it all. He never allowed himself to make a tough choice. Captain Kirk once said, “How we deal with death is at least as important as how we deal with life.” And when Kirk eventually did have to face death for the first time, he grieved. He mourned. But he didn’t let it consume him. He ultimately accepted it and moved on. Anakin could never do that. Not until the end.

 

I prefer TPM because I feel it was a little better at what it was trying to do. I don't like Jar Jar, but I don't like the romance in AotC either. I don't consider either film that much better or worse than the other, I just like TPM a little more. That being said AotC moves the story of the saga much more.

 

I think the opening of TPM is wonderful with the lightsaber through the door scene. I enjoy both films. TPM tends to have a slower middle. Whereas AOTC has more political intrigue and a conspiracy. The battle at the end I think AOTC edges it. TPM has more of a human dimension though.

I think TPM has a bit of a loss of sense of urgency in the middle so AOTC edges it for me. Partly because like Anakin in ROTS, "I am just so frustrated with the Jedi Council" for their lack of action. They just sit there. Quite literally in TPM.

TPM though I think the scenes of Anakin walking away from his mother and John Williams music was so powerful. And I like the practical effects.

 

@KuroIf If Anakin were able to overcome his greed attachments he wouldn't have become Vader, would he? That's the whole point. He had potential but he didn't fulfill it until the very end.

He was already more Vader than Anakin at that point. His power was more important to him and the negative emotions clouded his judgement. Compare it with AOTC when he agrees to back off when Padme tells him to. He actually respects her wishes at this point.

Well you're the one who started quoting Wikipedia. Sometimes authority is right

[quote[Anakin is violent, full of rage, selfish, jealous and possessive. I would not call any of those traits noble.[/quote]

But he's not displaying all of these traits all the time. Seriously, he has what, one violent incident in the first two movies? (and half of ROTS until the turn). He wants to help strangers and agrees to leave his mother (but can't let go completely, probably due to the Jedi not being able to help him). He's willing to let Padme go. Yes, he's becoming increasingly selfish and greedy for more power but he still was trying to follow the Jedi path, including risking his life for the Republic (can it count as bravery?). He also clearly cares for Obi-Wan and wants to save him even when Palpatine orders him not too. He even wants to help the cannon fodder clone troopers. Antiheroes don't normally do that. Anakin still wants to be a Jedi until he becomes increasingly disillusioned with it. I'm not sure if he's a good person as an adult but at least he's struggling and he knows when he does something wrong. 100% good people don't become monsters, after all.

He could have stopped any time. For example, he could have obeyed Mace's order to stay put. Dooku feels that he has fear and anger but he's not using them so he's not entirely lost yet. Possibly if Obi-Wan wasn't away he could've been influenced (which is why Palpatine wanted him gone). At the same time, the circumstances were stacked against Anakin starting with his birth as a slave (Luke was in a much better situation).

 

Exactly. This is what makes him an antihero, and his fall unpreventable.

Only after going on about how he’s spent the last decade dreaming about her and making her feel uncomfortable. Frankly, if my sister had a bodyguard who went on about how, “I’ve spent every day for the last 10 years thinking of you,” I’d tell her to get a new bodyguard. If he continued to go on about how he constantly dreams about her, I’d tell him to lay off. If he then told her that she was in his very soul tormenting him, I’d kick his ass and tell him never to come near my sister again if he knew what was good for him.

If anything, I never got the impression that he cared about Padmé as a person, in a truly authentic way. I got the impression that he obsessed over her as the object of some sort of creepy fantasy. Holding on to a crush like that for 10 years is frankly super-unhealthy.

I quoted a dictionary to provide a definition. I didn’t say “Anakin is an antihero because Authority X says so.”

Well, again I’m talking about Anakin during his adult life. I feel that we might’ve gotten a more nuanced, balanced perspective of him if the stuff about him being separated from his mother had been a half-hour flashback in the first film and the rest of it had shown him as an adult. Then, after having seen adult Anakin for an entire film, then you’d show his first taste of the dark side in the second film, foreshadowing his eventual turn in the third one. As is, it feels far too packed and the bad traits seem to overwhelm the good.

But you knew he was never gonna obey Mace Windu’s order to stay put…because then that would risk him being separated from his wife and experiencing the pain of loss, something which he just couldn’t bear. Theoretically, he could have obeyed Windu’s order, but he was never gonna do that.

Given the way the character is set up and written, there’s really no point where he could’ve conceivably made a choice that would’ve prevented his fall without it being wildly out-of-character.

 

Whether it was preventable or not is debatable, I can personally think of several alternatives scenarios where he's less likely to fall. However, it has nothing to do with being an antihero. In fact, the word fall implies the character was at least trying to be heroic, otherwise what's there to fall from?

Not that Anakin is a creepy stalker nonsense again, this has been discussed so many times... He tells her once, she says it's not a good idea and he backs off. She's the one who decides to accompany him to Tatooine and even decides to go to Geonosis to rescue Obi-Wan. Sounds like she believes he can behave himself around her.

Well, he's not exactly a normal child. He met her when she was separated from her mother, she was older and to some extent became a replacement. He dreams of her because he dreams about the future. And what's so creepy about about marriage? Despite his obsession, he hasn't physically approached her on his own and is willing to let her go. He doesn't make any further moves until she admits her love. Maybe you should ask your sister but as a woman I don't see anything dishonorable in his behavior.

I'm just pointing out the prevalent opinion. You don't have to agree with it, of course.

I agree to some extent that he's less likable than he could have been if we saw more of him as an adult. However, the first installment in trilogy is about accepting one's destiny and embarking on a hero's journey. If he already a Jedi and serves the Republic, what's his journey in the first movie then?

Well technically he accomplishes his assignment by telling Mace about Darth Sidious instead of taking up on Palpatine's offer right away. And he tries to stay away (Ruminations Scene). So he's not completely lost even at that moment.

Well I think there was some possibility that if Obi-Wan stayed on Coruscant he might have told him about Padme (or Obi-Wan could have figured it out, knowing Anakin's feelings towards her) and helped him to calm down and control his feelings. That's why Sidious made sure he went away, after all.

 

For me AOTC is the worst of the Star Wars movies, but I still love it.

 

Whether you wanna call him a stalker or not, he certainly acts weird and creepy around her. At the very least, his behavior towards her qualifies as a form of harassment, and is very unprofessional. In this post-Weinstein world, if a bodyguard ever acted towards the person he’s supposed to be protecting the way Anakin behaves around Padmé, he’d immediately be fired, and rightly so.

Now she’s obviously in puppy love with him, inexplicably overriding her otherwise good sense throughout the first two films. Obsessing over someone for a whole decade is frankly sick, pathetic, and unhealthy. I don’t find their story in the least bit romantic or tragic. More disturbing than anything.

In my experience, women don’t like it when a guy takes things too far too fast…and he certainly does that. They haven’t seen each other in 10 years, yet within a couple of days, he admits that he’s spent every single day of those last 10 years obsessing over her. That would creep out nearly all the women I’ve ever known.

The original film covered that territory within half an hour and it worked just fine. As soon as Luke Skywalker says, “I wanna learn the ways of the Force and become a Jedi like my father,” he’s accepted his destiny and embarked on a hero’s journey. The rest of the film (and the entire trilogy, for that matter) shows us that hero’s journey. The problem with Anakin’s arc is that we never see his hero’s journey. We see him embark upon it and then once we meet up with him again, he’s already started to fall to the dark side.

But it’s only a matter of time. Given who he is, it’s virtually impossible for him not to fall.

Part of this is inevitably built in to the story, given its prequel status. Of course, it also doesn’t help that the story was written backwards.

Even then, we repeatedly see him lash out at Obi-Wan, whom he regards with a great deal of hostility and resentment. I don’t think that Obi-Wan could’ve prevented it. Remember, Darth Vader himself admits several years later, “Obi-Wan once thought as you do.”

In the end, Anakin’s fall is the result of his choices and the inevitable result of the person whom he always was. The way he’s written, he comes across as less of a tragic figure and as more of a ticking time bomb. You’re just sort of waiting for him to finally go off the deep end.

 

I wouldn't call Anakin a stalker. For one thing, he hasn't made any effort to see or talk to Padme in 10 years, simply remembering her as an angelic memory.

Secondly, there's only really one time he does something without Padme's consent, and that's the long stare in the bedroom. When she says no to the kiss, Anakin backs off, and they remain as friends. When Anakin once again pushes Padme at the fireplace, she say she doesn't want it, and he agrees, not trying anything again until the arena when Padme expresses her love.

And I don't want to make the Han comparison. I really don't. But what he does in ESB is hardly free of problematic sexual aggression.

 

I find TPM and AOTC equally enjoyable in different ways. They're very different films. TPM is your classic Space Opera adventure. It's also very spiritual and deep in its way. AOTC is more of a B movie - like the cheesy serials George watched growing up. It's cheesy but it's also dark. Where TPM is more spiritual, AOTC is all action. You have a really great Obi-Wan detective story going on on one hand, and Anakin and Padme's love story and the beginning of Anakin's fall on the other. This is the height of Obi-Wan's youth - He's a handsome young Knight who is not beholden yet to the Council and yet no longer a Learner. I find this movie to be HIS movie more than anyone else's. We get to see the very last vestige of the "more civilized age" Obi-Wan spoke of...and also the underbelly of it (see the Coruscant nightclub scene) that Obi-Wan's own nostalgia would prefer to forget. This is the last of the Jedi as peacekeepers, before they themselves fall to the trap of the Sith.

Qui Gon was the star of TPM, Obi-Wan is the star of AOTC, and Anakin is the star of Sith, and I find that the point of view or mentality of each of those characters colors each of those films. TPM is wide eyed, starry, a spectacle, and also spiritual and introspective. AOTC has this swashbuckling, witty quality to it. Sith is brooding, dark, and bleak. Each one is kind of a reflection of the main characters.

 

That’s why I didn’t even bother calling him a stalker. @-NaTaLie- said, “Not that Anakin is a creepy stalker nonsense again, this has been discussed so many times..”, and I declined to address the stalker claim one way or the other. However, I do think that he repeatedly acts weirdly and creepily around her.

What he’s doing is repeatedly testing and pushing her boundaries and constantly forcing her into a position that is, at best, awkward and uncomfortable. Remember, he’s her bodyguard, yet he’s repeatedly pushing the limits of any kind of even semi-professional boundaries. Frankly, she gave him a warning when she said that his lingering stare made her feel uncomfortable. For him to then prattle on about he’s spent every single day for the last 10 years thinking of her is frankly a firing offense. It’s also kind of a bad idea on the part of the Jedi to assign her a protector whom they know has a creepy, unhealthy obsession with her and who has proven himself to be temperamental, unstable and emotionally volatile. If we’re to apply Earth logic to this, it’s really a gigantic lawsuit waiting to happen.

And yes, I do consider his treatment of her to be harassment. Every time, I’ve been given a handbook that clearly outlines the company’s harassment policy, and Anakin’s behavior towards her violates every single harassment policy I’ve ever agreed to obey. I have seen co-workers get fired for much less than what Anakin does (e.g. an off-color joke).

And Han Solo’s behavior would not be tolerated today. His behavior on Hoth is actually pretty good. Once they board the Millennium Falcon, then it gets questionable.

Still, the dynamic between Han and Leia is pretty clearly a throwback to screwball comedy films from the 1930s. Watch It Happened One Night and tell me you can’t see an influence.

[Edited to remove unnecessary snarkiness.]

 

Yes ... But I prefer a grown up anakin in AOTC than in TPM ... but there are more enjoyable scenes in the first movie

 

I am watching TPM and I still love it.

 

I like TPM more and more the older I get. It could do without Jar Jar, who grates me more than when I was younger, but I actually agree with the premise of Jar Jar. Instead of making him an alien, he should have been a human from the slums of Naboo. The prequels, from a story perspective lack an everyday man. Jar Jar could have been that. He could have been a consistent POV of the average citizen.

Overall TPM is supposed to be a light happy film in the golden age of the Republic before the dark times. The way Qui Go and Obi Wan mow down droids works well. The CGI was good for it's time and the galaxy is supposed to look clean and fresh. There has yet to be 24 years of on and off again civil war.

 

The main complain about TPM for me is JarJar ... but I can stand it now

 

Why is Jar Jar any less of an everyman or "average citizen" simply because he's an alien? I think he fills those roles splendidly. A simple human character wouldn't have had nearly the same impact as Jar Jar with all his amphibious rubberiness and peculiar vocal presence. Love him or hate him, Jar Jar is one of a kind.

 

You can't be serious, this has nothing to do with Weinstein. Anakin is not Padme's employer, he never demands anything from her in return for his services. You're also forgetting she's attracted to him too. She doesn't ask to replace him, she goes on a picnic with him, wears revealing dresses and generally seems to enjoy his company. Unfortunately, Lucas cut her family scenes where you can see her point of view more clearly but even without that, women don't spend time in the intimate settings wearing the kinds of dresses she is if they're not interested in guys. The worst you can say is that they BOTH behave unprofessionally but really mostly in two scenes: one where Anakin steals a kiss (but stops when Padme says no - which you seem to ignore) and then when he confesses his feelings and she reminds him they can't do it because this lie will destroy them. Name me just one scene after that where he behaves anything but friendly to her? In fact, Padme is the one who wants to go with him first to Tatooine and then to Geonosis. Apparently, she's not scared of being with him even though as a Jedi he can overpower her easily.

But we're not talking about the modern dating game here. Lucas was clearly inspired by the traditional forbidden romances such as Tristan & Isolde, Lancelot and Guinevere or Romeo & Juliet.

Again, he's not a normal person (and neither is Padme). He sees visions of the future with her so it's hard for him to forget. But even if he's obsessed with her, he's still willing to let her go when she first refuses which undermines your own argument that he has no nobility or always reacts violently when he's separated from him. In fact, he's ok being separated from both his mother and his wife for long periods of time. He doesn't want to control them. It's only when they're threatened by DEATH he feels he should have power to prevent it.

Luke wants to become a Jedi but he doesn't fully accept the Force until the trench run which means he doesn't really think about himself as a Jedi until then. If you start with Anakin as an adult Jedi padawan he's clearly accepted the Force so what's his journey in the first movie then?

That's because it's a hero's journey in reverse. He starts on a journey to the dark path as soon as he's separated from his mother, accepted in the Order and has Palpatine whispering in his ear. Which doesn't mean he immediately become bad or doesn't try to follow the heroic path (that's why he's not an antihero, he wants to be a Jedi which is the last thing any antihero in the Galaxy would want to be).

Don't forget we've seen the OT first so we expected Anakin to fall. At the same time, I know a few people who weren't familiar with Star Wars, watched the saga in the episodic order and were quite shocked with everything that happened in ROTS, especially Anakin's actions. They didn't see him as a bad guy and expected him to overcome his issues and fulfill his destiny as the Chosen One.

But that refers to Anakin after becoming Vader, not before. And while he complains to Padme about Obi-Wan holding him back the only time he lashes out at Obi-Wan is on the gunship after Padme's fallen out - and Obi-Wan still manages to find a way to reason with him. They do have arguments but so did Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan, only less so. They're in a better place in ROTS so Obi-Wan could still influence Anakin. Even Palpatine knows about that and tries to remove him from equation.

Well I don't see it that way. He grows progressively darker but he's also more mature in ROTS and he's fighting till the very end instead of just giving in to the Dark side any time he needs to be more powerful. Yes, the chances of him not falling are increasingly small but not zero at any given moment.

 

I think TPM can lose its pacing/sense of urgency sometimes though. But it is a quality film.

I feel like AOTC though as an adult is enjoyable as the conspiracy theories, and thriller/political action are actually pretty cool at the start. And it gets good when you hear about the CIS plot. Not to mention the reveal of the Clone trooper (cough Stormtrooper) army on Kamino. The noble Jedi falling to wave after wave of droid fire was cool.

I think a little bit more practical effects in AOTC might have helped sure. And the dialogue needed more "I know" moments than "Sand" moments.

The finale though in AOTC was great. Especially that scene of the beginning of the Empire with Star destroyers carrying Republic (cough Imperial) troopers to other worlds.

Also Aayla Secura, for erm intellectual reasons.