ST Andy Serkis (Supreme Leader Snoke) in the ST

I want the following to happen in his next interview:

INTERVIEWER: What would you say to someone who says they aren't satisfied with the character Snoke?

RIAN JOHNSON: I guess I'd say something like, "Hey I'm glad you are a really, really, enormously huge Star Wars fan, but I'm trying to have a nice dinner with my family. Star Wars is just a movie. And take off that ridiculous mask."

 

Yes but what if...

 

After Snoke dies and they kick the red dudes' butts, Kylo tells Rey that they can end the Jedi, the First Order, the Sith....why bring up the Sith if they already died?

And if Snoke is not a Sith, then he's part of some other sect of the dark side that still exists somewhere.

Knowing who Snoke is/was and where he came from as well as how he came to power tells us the extent of the dark side and what else is out there. It suggests that no matter what happens in this trilogy, another one like Snoke or Palpatine or Bane or whoever can and will arise again. Something ELSE needs to be defeated to keep this cycle from repeating....to keep remants of the evil Empire, FO, etc from going to wherever to find a new/old/very old dark sider.

Voldemort had the horicruxes. Sauron had the ring. Snoke is just one piece of the puzzle as was Palpatine (unless Snoke WAS Palpatine taking over another body). Something needs to be destroyed in order for this cycle of dark lords to end.

 

That's a good point. Combine that with Luke's name drop of Darth Sidious and the Emperor's Theme music being played, and well, let's just say the coincidences are multiplying and piling up if that's all they are.

 

The VD would have you think the cycle will never end with the darkside as its just a part of things. I guess sometimes stronger than other times. It did say the thousand year run of the Banite Sith had ended however.

 

In the first six films, what was important that happened offscreen?

 

I am hopeful that Jason Fry's novelization might add a little more meat or tease more of Snoke's background, especially in terms of providing some context the way that Bloodline did for the First Order in TFA. Even with the TFA novelization we got a much better understanding of Snoke and his relationship with Kylo. But my main hope is for a future book that focuses on the rise of the First Order, and that provides a conclusion to Rae Sloane's story.

That said, I'm still of a mind that TLJ did indeed provide us with more information than what many seem to feel like it did. The lack of details about Snoke's identity (even quick ones like those other posters have posited) is itself a kind of information, as is his death in the film and therefore the likelihood of not receiving much more Snoke lore in the future film. For example, here are a few things that TLJ tells me Snoke is not:

• Snoke is not a super-powered dark side god like the Sith Emperor from the TOR video games, and the story is not leading up to a faux-metaphysical cosmic battle between abstract avatars of the light and dark sides of the Force.
• Snoke is not Darth Plagueis, an honestly random theory that would do more harm to the integrity of pre-established characters and stories than provide any meaningful bridge to the older trilogies.
• Snoke is not a resurrected Palpatine or Mace Windu, because they are both dead and really nothing like him.
• Snoke is not an ancient Sith Lord or a corrupted first Jedi who was trapped or mummified or in a suspended state in the Unknown Regions, waiting to conquer the galaxy for unexplained reasons until the ST.
• And in general, Snoke may not be a character with a needlessly complicated backstory, a character whose backstory would require an explanation that takes away from the story and characters, not just in terms of screen time but also in terms of quality.

What the filmmakers of these new movies have shown themselves to clearly understand, even if they are shy on lore, is how to make characters that are truly compelling and human. Both Rey and Kylo were developed with an almost literary probity, and even more minor characters like Holdo, Poe, Hux, and Snoke reveal more about who they are with their actions rather than with what they explicitly tell us about themselves. TLJ did not tell us where Snoke comes from, but it did well to show us who he was when this story happened, the kind of man that he was and the way he treated those to whom he had a duty of care as leader and master.

But this is Star Wars, and we love lore, and I certainly do as much as any other fan. And these movies already paint a picture by what they don't say. Where does Snoke come from? After TLJ, there are at least two general possibilities that make sense to me within the context of the story:

1. He comes from the same place as the rest of the First Order. He is a former Imperial (the word "noble" always strikes me as fitting for him when they mention it in this context) who for whatever reason was either not relevant or prominent 30 years in the past, but grew in power, politically and spiritually, along with the rest of the First Order. Palpatine had more than his fair share of adepts and followers, some of them Force-sensitive, so it is not a stretch for Snoke to be an extension of this: one of his more genuinely skilled advisors, trusted enough to be aboard the Eclipse, and likely responsible for a good share of secrets and knowledge.
2. He is part of what the fleeing Imperials encountered in the Unknown Regions, a warlord or king of his own sector of space who saw an opportunity to increase his power and influence. Independent of the Empire and its history, but strong with the Force and capable of dominating others with it, he helped grow the First Order and from the shadows sought to destabilize the greatest threats to him, the Republic and the Jedi, as he planned to expand his conquest beyond the worlds he previously had access to.

Personally, I see him as a mix of the theory 1 in terms of origin and theory 2 in terms of what he became over time. I'm sure there are other, more compelling theories. I think that anything that fits into the context of how the First Order developed in secret works well, anything that flows somewhat logically from the state of things in ROTJ without seeming too random or convoluted. But this is personal preference, of course.

And my favorite question about Snoke, beyond his specific backstory, is what the heck happened to him to make him so deformed?

 

Pablo once said that Snoke's choir theme was inspired by a Rudyard Kipling poem translated to sanskrit.

I still think it's The Disciple.


He that hath a Gospel
To loose upon Mankind,
Though he serve it utterly --
Body, soul and mind --
Though he go to Calvary
Daily for its gain --
It is His Disciple
Shall make his labour vain.

He that hath a Gospel
For all earth to own --
Though he etch it on the steel,
Or carve it on the stone --
Not to be misdoubted
Through the after-days --
It is His Disciple
Shall read it many ways.

It is His Disciple
(Ere Those Bones are dust )
Who shall change the Charter,
Who shall split the Trust --
Amplify distinctions,
Rationalize the Claim;
Preaching that the Master
Would have done the same.

It is His Disciple
Who shall tell us how
Much the Master would have scrapped
Had he lived till now --
What he would have modified
Of what he said before.
It is His Disciple
Shall do this and more....

He that hath a Gospel
Whereby Heaven is won
(Carpenter, or cameleer,
Or Maya's dreaming son),
Many swords shall pierce Him,
Mingling blood with gall;
But His Own Disciple
Shall wound Him worst of all!

 

Terrible character. Boring, bad CGI, cheap copy of Palpatine. Even his name is ridiculous. He was useless from start. Only good moment was his death. Could not come soon enough.

 

I don't think Snoke was a straight copy of Palpatine, though his character may be, at least in part, a comment on the puppetmaster trope. And he also seems to embody the idea, mooted by Lawrence Kasdan I think, that the premise of the ST was the inability to learn wisdom, or to learn from past mistakes.

A few random thoughts on the character. Some of this is supposition, but based upon the books, and comments by Serkis, Snoke seems to be:

Someone who has sat outside the events of the saga so far, viewing from afar, but is tied to the past. " I think it’d be fair to say that he is aware of the past to a great degree.”
But despite, or perhaps because of his seemingly vast knowledge of history ( I'm leaning on the TLJ Visual Dictionary here ) and the Force, he is repeatedly confounded by a course of events that deviate from what's come before. He lectures Kylo Ren on the dangers of falling prey to the lure of the Light, in the TFA novel, highlighting Vader's weakness as the cause of the Empire's downfall. In TLJ, it is not the pull of the light that determines Kylo's resolve to destroy Snoke, but rather, the triumph of ambition, resentment and hatred. The corrupter Snoke did his job too well. In the end, he misread his apprentice.

A proponent of genetic destiny:
Snoke, like much of SW fandom, believed that any threat to the dark side's ascendancy must come from the Skywalker bloodline. In this way, his views do seem to align with Palpatine's, and indeed the Jedi Order of the PT. A belief that Force is primarily hereditary. Not so, as the 'awakening' of the 'no one' from Jakku, takes him by surprise.

"I warned my young apprentice that as he grew stronger, his equal in the light would rise. Skywalker, I assumed...wrongly."


Representative of a dogmatic, dualistic view of the Force:

Compare Snoke and Luke's perception of the importance of the Jedi to the balance of the Force.

Snoke: "Skywalker lives. The seed of the Jedi lives. As long as it does, hope exists."

Luke: "That Force does not belong to the Jedi. To say that if the Jedi die, the light dies, is vanity."

Snoke is reading from an orthodox view of the light / darkside conflict here, whilst Luke has stepped outside of that. Whilst Luke has been forced to question his understanding of the Force, Snoke is tied to the rule book, a slave to dogma. In fact, the SW Databank entry now describes him as a "seeker of arcane lore". It seems that this is a guy who mistakes knowledge for wisdom.

An opportunist? Certainly, he didn't make his presence felt until after the fall of Palpatine. Perhaps this reluctance to become involved until events suited him can be explained by his obvious physical frailty?

 

That is a very insightful contrast of views, @Mungo Baobab. Snoke has been indeed repeatedly described as someone whose knowledge of events, and perhaps even of the Force, is indirect and focused on what has been written and learned by others. This is completely different to the experience of our main characters in all three trilogies so far: Anakin, Luke, and Rey/Ben. It fits his character that he would be confident in what he knows and has learned through others, but lack the wisdom to see his plans to their end and the likely inevitable conclusion of dark side mentorship. He sensed an awakening, but did he know what had awakened?

He is obsessed with the Skywalker power, both in Luke and in Ben, which also fits with Han's comments that Snoke was only using Ben for his power. I had not thought again of that line by Snoke about assuming that Skywalker's "rise" would be in response to Ben's own growing power. Although he was wrong about this (it was Rey), it tells us that he did not think that the light would rise in response to his own (Snoke's) rise to power. And although his displays of Force strength in TLJ appear formidable to us, he repeatedly acts as though it would likely not be enough to protect him from a trained Jedi, a view backed up by the VD and his very physically impressive Praetorian Guard.

Like you mentioned, this further emphasizes his overall role as the corrupter, the one who brings the true dark side threat to the fore but is not himself necessarily as threatening. And it fits his personality that he would do this in a quest for opportunistic personal power, manipulating indirectly wherever he can until the overall situation is enough in his favor that he can act with minimal risk to his own survival. That makes me wonder whether Luke would ever have done anything to stop Snoke if he had never corrupted Ben. Even if he was a dark sider and Luke was aware of him before it all went down, and perhaps even if they had met personally, would Luke had felt it necessary to kill him? In parallel to the New Republic's view of the First Order, perhaps Snoke seemed like an old, weakened Force user obsessed with the dark side but ultimately deluded about his power. Ben was his secret weapon, or at least one of them, and therefore the only threat Luke genuinely cared about.

 

Someone gave me a little desk calendar from TLJ -- in it is a picture of a kneeling Kylo between 2 Praetorians and a kind of faded Snoke a la being a puppet master.

It actually has irked me quite a bit. And no matter what I read here that seems somewhat logical -- it's all rationalizing. The handling of Snoke was botched - SUCH potential wasted.
Just burns my bum. No matter what I read here that could make sense IF it were actually in the film -- it wasn't.
I'm RE-annoyed all over again.

 

That is simply a hypothesis on your part though right? There is literally no on screen explanation of what you said happening. And that seems to negate and belittle the entire saga of the OT and the 6 films that preceded TFA. If any random person can take over the galaxy, then the grandeur of the saga, the dark side and the light is lost. The brilliant takeover by the Emperor is cheapened since "anyone can do it". The Jedi become irrelevant since far more powerful foes can arise more powerful than Yoda, Anakin (the chosen one), Luke Skywalker (the Force runs strong in your family), Palpatine (the most powerful Sith Lord who succeeded in almost wiping out the Jedi and schemed to have the Republic legitimately become his Empire). Snoke not being Plageuis or Windu or somehow linked to the last 6 films makes this entirely pointless. We're now resorting to just random films with no story arc.

Next film could easily have a random new villain with no backstory appear.

SERIOUS? I had no idea they were going to bring in Darth Talon. [Removed]

I agree, I don't know why if they really didn't know what they were doing, why not set this miles into the future or else in the past. This makes no logical sense carrying on from the 6 films preceding it. Imagine watching ROTJ and then these. What happened?

Yes I mean no backstory for Snoke. Critics used to say oh wait we'll find out in the next episode. I feared since watching TFA that no exposition was given. And we didn't get exposition in TLJ either which makes me worried. I hope they can in Episode IX now, but it seems quite fargone.

Yes I feel like Talon as a backstory would have been decent. Or at least Plageuis, or Windu.
Talon (played by Jessica Alba) or Aayla Secura, for intellectual reasons of course hahaha.

Because your avatar is Palpatine, I had to laugh! Yes I think it was the torture theme. I would have thought it significant, but I'm unsure since the sequels appear a little disjointed. I sincerely hope they are tying into the whole saga. But they are really leaving us in suspense and not answering anything until the end. I hope it works. John Williams either way is a legend.

It was almost like Snoke became the mouthpiece for the entire audience wondering exactly the same thing. I liked the death scene. But I didn't like that we had no idea who he was, where he came from. What his motivations were. I feel like the Plageuis background, or even Windu and more flashbacks would have helped to clear all this up. And this needed to happen by now. I mean now we HAVE to have some explanation on screen in Episode IX surely.

Imagine the irony that Plagues twice failed to see his apprentice turn on him (first Palpatine and now Ben).

That is simply a hypothesis on your part though right? There is literally no on screen explanation of what you said happening. And that seems to negate and belittle the entire saga of the OT and the 6 films that preceded TFA. If any random person can take over the galaxy, then the grandeur of the saga, the dark side and the light is lost. The brilliant takeover by the Emperor is cheapened since "anyone can do it". The Jedi become irrelevant since far more powerful foes can arise more powerful than Yoda, Anakin (the chosen one), Luke Skywalker (the Force runs strong in your family), Palpatine (the most powerful Sith Lord who succeeded in almost wiping out the Jedi and schemed to have the Republic legitimately become his Empire). Snoke not being Plageuis or Windu or somehow linked to the last 6 films makes this entirely pointless. We're now resorting to just random films with no story arc.

Next film could easily have a random new villain with no backstory appear.

SERIOUS? I had no idea they were going to bring in Darth Talon. I honestly feel like I want to be Anakin right now and the writers of the sequels who chose not to use Lucas' scripts (the creator of the entire saga with a great story arc) should be the Separatist Council on Mustafar. Upon the orders of this forum we should do what must be done....

I agree, I don't know why if they really didn't know what they were doing, why not set this miles into the future or else in the past. This makes no logical sense carrying on from the 6 films preceding it. Imagine watching ROTJ and then these. What happened?

Yes I mean no backstory for Snoke. Critics used to say oh wait we'll find out in the next episode. I feared since watching TFA that no exposition was given. And we didn't get exposition in TLJ either which makes me worried. I hope they can in Episode IX now, but it seems quite fargone.

Yes I feel like Talon as a backstory would have been decent. Or at least Plageuis, or Windu.
Talon (played by Jessica Alba) or Aayla Secura, for intellectual reasons of course hahaha.

Because your avatar is Palpatine, I had to laugh! Yes I think it was the torture theme. I would have thought it significant, but I'm unsure since the sequels appear a little disjointed. I sincerely hope they are tying into the whole saga. But they are really leaving us in suspense and not answering anything until the end. I hope it works. John Williams either way is a legend.

It was almost like Snoke became the mouthpiece for the entire audience wondering exactly the same thing. I liked the death scene. But I didn't like that we had no idea who he was, where he came from. What his motivations were. I feel like the Plageuis background, or even Windu and more flashbacks would have helped to clear all this up. And this needed to happen by now. I mean now we HAVE to have some explanation on screen in Episode IX surely.

YES. If not Plageuis, honestly I think this would work. Consider Windu appalled and broken. His precious Republic betrayed the Jedi. They gave control to Palpatine, and he sees them openly turn on the Jedi in support of the Great Purge. He believes in his mantra of doing what has to be done, but now sees the only TRUE way for peace is ORDER. He now sees that he must use the dark side to truly do what has to be done. And he vows revenge on both Palpatine and Skywalker. There can be no room for sentiment (Skywalker betrayed the Jedi based on attachment). But he sees the raw potential of Skywalker and the power as he monitors the rise and fall of the Empire from afar.

Although as to why he would be named Snoke I have no idea. He seeks to truly fulfil the prophecy by bringing true balance. First Order. Then enforcement of the Force itself to rule by Force.

Agreed. Really Snoke should tie in to the saga. Maybe Windu. Or else Plaguis. E.g. Snoke dropped the title of Darth failing to see his apprentice Sidious turn on him. Palpatine in his typical arrogance (just like with Luke on the Death Star II), uses LIghtining to kill his Master, instead of a lightsaber. Plaguis (who's actual name is Snoke Ey Mon) faked his death. Retreats to the Outer reaches of space, determined to seek the true meaning of the Force and focusing on his powers of prolonging his life. He watches with interest, galactic events, his Apprentice's Empire rise and fall. Upon feeling Palpatine's death, he vows to fulfil the destiny of the Sith and retake the galaxy, usurping the extreme remnant of the Empire (which would become the First Order) and sabotaging both the peacekeeping Empire trying to fight off both a Rebellion and these warlords within, as well as the New Republic by seeding back corruption and apathy for the problems of outlying systems at the mercy of crime and DISORDER.

The sequels should have basically used Lucas' story arcs. What we have now lacks an arc.

"I hope right you are" - Yoda

Let us hope that Lucas' original arc is coming to fruition and these sequel writers just took the wrong way to get here.

LEGEND. This. Precisely. George Lucas' would have showed us everything, all the exposition and story arc on screen. Perhaps flashbacks in Episode VII immediately (like Batman Begins sets up that trilogy). In this case to link up the entire saga. I find it unbelievable some people seem to talk about how things don't need to be shown on screen.

"He comes from where the First Order came from" - Which was where precisely? Was this shown ON SCREEN?

"Snoke is Noble/former Imperial" - How do you know this? I wish they would explain this via storytelling or flashback. Exposition is required.

Where is the Empire?
What is the New Republic?

What happened to the New Jedi Order?
Yes indeed, why is he deformed. And how is he so powerful, who in the name of the Force, is Snoke?

Unless he is explained, I tend to agree. Needs a backstory ON SCREEN. Exposition on screen. Some link to the entire saga otherwise he almost renders the threat of Palpatine meaningless. If anyone can do it. The death scene was greatly done though. But again, would have been more meaningful if we actually knew who he was. In the same way, I didn't really "feel" for Hosnian because we had no idea what that planet was etc etc.

But HOW does he take command? Who is he?

Nothing is explained. No exposition. He seems like a complete random person which negates the threat of Palpatine in the PT. Makes Palpatine's powers (both Force powers and legitimate Emperor status) in the OT as minuscule. If any random bad guy can do it??

"Oh what could have been."

"Episode VIII was our last hope."

"No. There is another."

There is ONE final chance to salvage this. But personally I would have picked Lucas to write the final sequel. Because only the Chosen one can save us I feel. So much opportunity wasted and Snoke's character (should have had a different name my word) needs some explaining ON SCREEN.

Precisely. I don't even know how some people are coming up with this backstory of Snoke. None of it was shown on screen??

 

I think you can partially blame his Wook article linking to a particular video.



Mind you, this is the most evidence based of any theory that was ever out there, but it's still based mostly on info provided in Aftermath.

Snoke does seem to at least have spent TIME in the Unknown Regions, given his servants, but we have NO official confirmation of how much. The above was more or less what I had believed and hoped the film would semi-confirm, but well, nada.

 

Pretty cool article on ILM's work on Snoke here, that touches on why the character's appearance was adjusted to fit Serkis' performance.
http://www.cartoonbrew.com/feature-film/evolution-snoke-last-jedi-andy-serkis-animation-155927.html

 

He probably remembers what happened to Darth Maul and wanted to make sure that did not happen.

 

This is a weak defense of poor writing.

Just because something is Star Wars does not mean it has to be defended, Snoke was just a poorly written character is that hard to accept?

 

I though he was well written, tbh. He has some fantastic lines in the movie.

 

If you think that post of mine you're quoting was my attempt to defend the way Snoke was written, your counterargument is decidedly weaker. To wit:

P1: Being of Star Wars is not proof that a thing is immune to criticism (this is TRUE)

P2: Snoke is a poorly written character (this is AN OPINION and therefore lends no support to any conclusion stated or written or hinted at anywhere at any point in the history of the universe)

C: Snoke is a poorly written character (this is {i}identical to one of the premises and therefore renders the argument entirely fallacious [circular logic/begging the question] and {ii}AN OPINION and, therefore, just, like, your opinion, man)

In conclusion, Snoke was well written and badass and drinks your milkshake.

 

OMG I'm personally offended

 

"Take that ridiculous thing off" is a pretty amazing line.

 

This confirms something I had written about a few weeks ago in this thread about differences between Snoke's TFA look and his TLJ look. The article almost makes it seem like it was the ILM team and not Johnson who were the source of many of these changes, though, like they mention, he had to approve them in the end.

Snoke definitely seemed much healthier in TLJ, he had fewer scars and he appeared to have a greater ease of movement walking around than what it appeared he would have from simply watching him stand up in TFA. This makes me curious about how differently Abrams and Johnson conceived of Snoke. I know Johnson gets a lot of criticism for supposedly not considering story aspects in detail (which I think is untrue), but it is definitely true that Abrams spent a good deal of time thinking about each aspect he introduced into the new trilogy, Snoke included.

As much as I try to think of these new films as a unity, I do wonder what differences there are between Abrams's vision of Snoke and Johnson's. There was an interview years ago where Abrams said he knew what "would happen" to Snoke, though it's too vague and not certain that he knew that TLJ would kill him off. Though, considering the trilogy is all about passing the torch, I would not be surprised if that aspect was always planned. It does fit well with the overall story.

But how strong or weak did Abrams imagine Snoke to be? I read through parts of the The Art of The Force Awakens the other day and to my mind it's likely that Snoke's origin is mixed with Kylo's as being the Jedi Killer. This same character was, for a long time, "origin-less," so it must have been something that Abrams and Kasdan came up with as part of Kylo's backstory and that of the Knights of Ren. In many ways, Snoke serves as the origin for Ren, thereby providing the Jedi Killer with his backstory.

But did Abrams see Snoke as being stronger and having a bigger role in the trilogy? Or did he also see him as simply a master of the dark side, a teacher who communicates knowledge of power even if he only wields a portion of it? I was certainly quite surprised when watching TLJ to see him be so powerful: shoving Hux around without even being in the same system, effortlessly toying with Kylo and Rey. Then again, maybe his overall strength and role would have been the same, and it was only the aesthetic of how weak/strong he looked that actually changed.

 

Yeah, I thought Snoke had some magnificent lines. All his scenes were standouts, IMO. Serkis’ performance was great.

 

I just saw Serkis in War of the Planet of the Apes, the best of a great trilogy. While he won critics’ awards for his acting, too bad not even an Oscar nomination. Amazing performance for an amazing actor.

As Snoke, he created mystery in the short time he was in TFA. In TLJ, he gives a more nuanced, richer, deeper performance. It’s amazing how twice he could be wrong:

1. He expresses doubt about Kylo being a new Vader? Was Spoke (a) sincere; (b) manipulating Ren; (c) both? For me, b or c.

2. He thought Luke was the light to meet the darkness. Here he’s sincere about being wrong.

Yet, he’s still so overconfident he can’t see his own demise at the hands of Ren.

I would have thought he might want Rey to dispose of Ren given the voice in Rey’s head in the audiobook for TFA. Or a winner-takes-all duel between Ren and Rey. Or I had he might have wanted Ren to turn Rey. But no, he wanted Ren to kill Rey.

He was a character more complex than Palpatine in the OT. For the Head Canon for some, Palpatine was always Sith. But there were no Sith in the OT films—nor even a Palpatine. And while the Emperor started as a politician, he eventually in the development TESB was transformed into a dark sorcerer. Random? Who was he?

We didn’t know who he was or how he came to power until the PT. Yes, we have ANH’s earlier drafts and novelizatuon. But they weren’t canon and we saw how GL changes things, in the creation the OT (Vader being father of Luke and then Leia), the PT, and TCW.

Even after the PT we still know little of Palpatine and his becoming a Sith and Senator. Luceno’s novel was planned, announced, canceled, finally published—and is Legends. So, 41 years after we hear of the Emperor we still don’t know much. Yet rh whiners about Snoke.