Lit "Unlearn what you have learned" - The Jedi Thread

"The way I like to put it is, in The Empire Strikes Back, the big revelation is 'I am your father.' It's a big surprise, but I think the reason it lands is not because of that, but because it's the hardest possible thing that Luke, and hence the audience, could hear at that moment. You've had a bad guy that you can hate, that you can project your shadow on to cleanly, he's evil."

https://www.empireonline.com/movies...st-jedi-10-revelations-director-rian-johnson/

He doesn't reference the cave directly, but I was excited when I heard him use that terminology.

 

I sort of agree with that.

I think taking his weapon was also his taking his trust in brute force - "Great warrior? Wars not make one great!" - which could result in him becoming like Vader, hence the vision. Luke goes in there still wanting to fight Vader. Luke ultimately wins by not fighting anybody.

 

You take violence in there, you get it in return.

Much like going into Ben's hut, another "domain of evil", armed.

 

It's so weird that RJ and plenty of others think Star Wars has ever been saying "you have to be connected to someone special to have the Force." Sure, the Skywalker family is a particular thing, but Shmi wasnt Force-sensitive so Rey isnt somehow a new thing to Star Wars given that Anakin was from a nobody mother, slave of a Toydarian junk trader and all around scumbag prior to being found by the Jedi.

TCW "Children of the Force" also literally shows 2 Force-sensitive infants whose parents arent Force-full at all. Let alone any Jedi in the PT. None of them come from Force dynasties because the Jedi Order's rules essentially preclude that from happening.

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I think it's because everyone expected this trilogy to be about Jacen and Jaina, or their analogs. I expected Rey to be the daughter of the Solos, even more than Kylo Ren being their son, perhaps stupidly on my part.

And TFA seemed to imply that by saying the lightsaber called to her, after belonging to Luke and his father, very much implying it was a family heirloom.

 

Not to "have the Force" but "to be notable". There are of course plenty of mudbloods in the canon, but 3/4 of the main movie Force-sensitive protagonists are Skywalkers. Shmi wasn't Force-sensitive but his daddy is the Force, so... false economy.

 

"Firstly. I like the idea that we're breaking out from the notion that the force is this genetic thing that you have to be tied to somebody to have. " -Rian Johnson

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I mean the reaction to the revelation that her parents were nobodies is all the confirmation you need. That, and it's oft stated that Star Wars is about family, about the Skywalkers.

 

Sure. The Saga is the Skywalker Saga. Never had to be from a family strong with the Force to be a Force-user though.

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Plus when Domhnall Gleeson was cast everyone was like "oh he's Luke's son!"

The fans had a fixation on these characters being the children of the Big 3. Same with people thinking Finn is related to Lando.

 

What's that got to do with the actual quote from Johnson that "to have the Force you have to be connected to someone" though? That was never true.

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Maybe he was being overly reductive.

But in terms of the protagonist, Luke inherited it from Anakin, from the two trilogies and generations we've seen, and Shmi doesn't really count because Anakin was conceived by the Force.

Maybe he meant you can be as powerful as the Skywalker bloodline.

 

Well... really ROTJ did that to ESB's suggestion. We get the tantalising hint that Leia can use the Force and then oh, hey, it's hereditary.

 

I think he was just pointing out that many fans and general audiences seemed to be under this presumption.

 

Yet, we had no reason to believe Yoda or Obi-Wan were from a long line of Force-users in those films. They just were. And we find out in the PT that this is actually the case. They were nobodies from nowhere that happened to have been taken in by the Jedi Order because they were born Force-sensitive.

My issue isnt with the idea of wanting to sort of re-emphasize that if the Jedi are to ever be again you're going to need a whole lot of nobodies from nowhere born to nobodies to do it. My issue is the specific idea that Force-sensitivity is entirely a matter of heritage, rather than "random" selection... because that's not something Star Wars has ever really been saying about the Force and Force-sensitivity.

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Well, if you ask me, I'd say that after Order 66, the sheer amount of Force-wielder deaths sent the midi-chlorians into a dormant state. They didn't manifest themselves strongly in any beings that came into existence after the Great Purge.

Throughout the Dark Times, the Shroud of the Dark Side maintained by Palpatine kept the midi-chlorine in a state of low dormancy. The Force itself, in a way, was sleeping. In a sort of coma from the horrible shock that was Order 66. This dormancy continued, with the Force unable to awaken as long as the reigning Dark Lord of the Sith lived.

Only when the Chosen One fulfilled his destiny and destroyed the Sith once and for all, did the Shroud finally dissipate. And the next day, Ben Solo was conceived. The first of the new Force-sensitives. But because of various reasons, Ben was tainted by darkness and it always dominated his destiny.

The Force tried to awaken once, when Luke created his New Jedi. But the midi-chlorians were sent into shock again when Ben slaughtered Luke's students. Then the Force found a new vessel.

Rey.

I'm sure her midi-chlorian count was at Anakin's level or higher.

 

"It's the 'anyone can be President' idea" Which I liked introducing" is enough to suggest that Rian is talking about having Skywalker Force affinity, specifically.

Though really what he introduced was the "anyone can win the lottery" idea.

 

Rey was born, presumably with that high midichlorian count, well before Ben killed Luke's students. Her Force power is not a reaction to the massacre.

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I don't think we can presume anything at this point.

 

That's another thing about the RJ quote. There's not once mention, let alone refutation, of midi-chlorians. The very thing that made people think of Force-users in terms of genetics. Regardless of who Rey's parents are or are not, *she* still has the genetic or cellular jackpot that grants Force-sensitivity.

If you *really* want to up-end that entire dynamic and do the "anyone can be president" thing, you make "The Force Awakens" mean that it's literally awakening in *everyone.* The whole galaxy starts to feel the Force, and it takes away what makes the Jedi, Sith and especially the Skywalkers so kriffing special.

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Does the Force only flow through time in a linear fashion?

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The Cosmic Force is outside of time.

 

Midichlorians, Duke! Just give in.

Seriously though, it'd be nice if Qui-Gon Jinn was like a crap Zwingli or something and midichlorians were an abortive heresy on which he defied the council repeatedly.

 

If Rian had really wanted to upturn things he should have given a midi-chlorian scanner to Luke and had him reveal that Rey didn't have a high count at all and yet was still capable of everything she is.

 

I'm not sure this timeline checks out, unless you're suggesting that Rey wasn't Force sensitive when she was younger.

Anyway maybe if TFA's trailer hadn't used Luke's quote about "the Force is strong in my family" then this wouldn't be such a mess.