PT Did the Jedi look for Sidious before Geonosis?

"Okay, well this sequence always started out with Mace...uh...overpowering Palpatine and then Palpatine using his powers to try to destroy Mace and Mace deflecting his rays with his Lightsaber. It always was that Anakin cut the Lightsaber out of his hand. But this part where he pretends to lose his power and be weak was something that I added later cause it moved the point where Anakin turns down to this moment right here and you can see that its very clear that he’s, he wants him to go on trial so he can pump him for information about how to get these powers."

--George Lucas, ROTS DVD Commentary.

Or, cameras which allow one to see in case the droids have their heads blown off.

You mean where he defeated Yoda and made the little imp run like a bitch. As to Vader, yes, he wasn't in control...though he did kill the traitor before dying.

 

That's not the camera argument. You're changing the subject. The camera argument by @Alexrd is that the Jedi learned Maul's identity because they went through camera recordings. There were none. And if they knew about and utilized said "cameras" for the battle, then they probably knew where they were and didn't discuss Sith business in front of them.

 

You don't know for certain that there were no cameras, nor that they weren't turned on in the hangar. Meaning that if they were on, the Jedi would see Maul fighting the Jedi. You're so busy trying to be right, that you don't even notice what is actually being said by Alexrd and myself. They're not going to be on in the throne room or in the upper levels, something we've both said. That much is obvious since Nute doesn't even know that Padme divided her team in two, with herself going in first and Sabe coming in from the rear. But the cameras would be on in the places where Nute and Maul never went to, to discuss the invasion.

 

No, they wouldn't. A. There were no cameras.
B. The Sith and TF know how to turn cameras on and off.

Case closed.

 

They would have cameras on to alert them of intruders in the hangars and would leave those cameras on, but switch off the ones in the rest of the palace.

 

There was no mention of cameras. Not even in Legends. The Jedi didn't find Maul's identity through any camera recordings.

 

I'm not talking about Legends or current EU. The point that was made is that it is possible. Not everyone reads books and comics like that. And every potential argument is valid. TPM and AOTC didn't mention cameras, but they were there.

The point is that the Jedi know from Obi-wan and Anakin's account and the fact that Qui-gon was killed. That is the proof that they need to believe that Maul was a Sith and to consider that Anakin might be the Chosen One.

 

Not if it isn't in the film. Just having an idea doesn't make it valid.

And my point is that that's stupid because they had all the same information BEFORE Qui-Gon was killed. From Qui-Gon.

Valid?

 

Forget it, a strawman will be used anyway.

 

If I claimed that Jesus Christ was resurrected, would you believe me? No, you wouldn't. That's what it was like with the Sith. All the Jedi know for certain is that someone is out there pretending to be a Sith and there are enough potential Force users who could try to pretend to be a Sith, to believe that is the most likely scenario.

 

If you were a Master Historian who had multiple witnesses, and scientific evidence that an event coinciding with the return of Jesus was also occurring. Yes. And I would grant you more resources to safely investigate further. Can't hurt.

 

Qui-Gon was the only real witness to the initial fight with Maul. And Qui-Gon is clearly considered something of an eccentric by the Council. He's the only one claiming that Anakin is the Chosen One and that the Sith have returned, and his only real evidence is that a slave woman on some backwater planet claimed to him that she gave virgin birth, and that afterwards some assassin with a lightsaber caught him off-balance. Well, no one is really sure if the prophecy is legitimate in the first place. Anakin could just be a fluke wunderkind. The Jedi are far from the only Force users in the galaxy. Apart from all this, the Jedi don't want to believe that their time of restful complacency has come to a sudden end. Only when they're forced to confront the unmistakable fact that Maul was a Sith Lord do they relent.

 

Anakin was there and almost died. Obi-Wan and the whole piloting staff saw the duel as well.

The dialogue implied he was a rebel. The Council said nothing to imply he was eccentric. The only difference between him and them seemed to be his passion for helping other beings.

No, the evidence is Anakin's midichlorian count. A blood test can be conducted 1000x over to confirm it.

Which is arrogant and stupid. Nothing had changed other than one of their own had to die.

 

And Qui-gon didn't have any of that. All he had was someone attacking him with a red Lightsaber, which isn't proof enough to say that is definitely a Sith. Just someone that he thinks might be a Sith and he only says that because he thinks he's found the Chosen One. If he hadn't found Anakin, he would be skeptical that this was a Sith Lord.

They saw someone attacking with a Lightsaber. Doesn't make that person a Sith. Ventress wasn't a Sith, but she used a pair of Lightsabers and tried to call herself one. Kanan ran around as a Jedi and Tarkin refused to accept it until he saw him endure torture like a Jedi would, in order to believe it. Luke claimed that he was a Jedi and Bib said that he was no Jedi. In the GFFA, you need proof, not supposition.

Yet, the Jedi don't exactly believe he's the Chosen One either. They doubt him right up to the end.

That's the proof that they needed.

 

Anakin, Obi-Wan and the pilots were all witnesses. Obi-Wan is the same person btw whose testimony they listen to after Qui-Gon's death. The scientific evidence is Anakin's midi-count and virgin birth.

What's your point. I'm not refuting any events of the film. I'm stating that their decision no to help Qui-Gon was moronic.

Which is stupid and moronic. But then again being stupid and moronic was a hallmark of the Jedi Council, which is why they got wiped out.

 

What Qui-gon saw.



What Anakin saw.



What Obi-wan and the pilots saw.

Obi-wan never verifies if that was a Sith to them. He doesn't even think it is a Sith himself. And as to Anakin, the Jedi still doubt him. Hence saying, "If he is the Chosen One" and "The Chosen One the boy may be."

So was sending two Jedi who had zero luck in defeating Dooku and sending Luke to confront Vader. Qui-gon had all the help that he needed.

Yet, it worked.







There's also no guarantee that sending more Jedi would work.

 

lol ugly pic. But I don't get it, are you pretending they didn't see the duel?

He's just a padawan, I'm sure he wouldn't be very learned on the Sith anyways. Also, he never states that he doesn't think Maul is a Sith, you just made that up.

Okay, how is this relevant to what I said?

One of the two Jedi they sent, Anakin, killed Dooku.

There was no Jedi Counil during the time of the OT.

He had no help, he died alone because the padawan with him couldn't keep up.

Nothing in life is guaranteed. Taking all measurements to ensure the best possible outcome is called "preparing."

 

Yeah, there was no given reason why Qui-Gon was not given some help when going back to Naboo and given that this is the instance where the Jedi have the least other concerns and the most available resources, this is just head-scratching.

They sent over 200 Jedi to deal with Dooku.
Why didn't they send just two Jedi there?

In RotS, two Jedi go after Palpatine, this can also be questioned. What did the other Jedi on Coruscant do?
Granted this was a big battle and we know that a number of Jedi were elsewhere.
But still iffy.

With Luke, there was no Jedi order anymore, Luke was all they had.
Why they didn't get Leia to come with Luke in ESB and train both of them, that can be questioned.

In closing, the TPM situation is just contrived writing.
Lucas needed a whole lot of stuff to happen and so they did, no matter if they made sense or not.

Bye for now.
Blackboard Monitor

 

The Red Lipstick Demon from the "Insidious" films, which has been compared to Maul, was a joke about how Anakin saw something scarier than it seemed. As to the other gif, the point was that they saw someone waving a Lightsaber pretending to be a Sith, when he wasn't as far as they were concerned.

OBI-WAN: "What was that?"

Not, "Holy crap, that was a Sith!" Nor does he ever put in his two cents about what he saw during the Council meeting. Nor is he even asked to verify Qui-gon's claim.

And being a Padawan doesn't mean that he doesn't know what a Sith Lord is, much less what they were about.

It means having a high Midichlorian count isn't enough to convince them.

After six tries over three years and using the dark side.

So, yes, there was a Council.

After he was kicked in the face and Qui-gon foolish kept up the fight, rather than wait for him. And what makes you think that the same thing wouldn't have happened if other Jedi were there?

And Maul was defeated by a Jedi who was prepared.

Two Jedi were sent to Naboo to protect the Queen, not fight a war. Two hundred and twelve Jedi were sent to fight a war on Geonosis.

 

As far as witnesses goes, all Anakin can say is that some big scary-looking guy almost ran him over before fighting Qui-Gon with a red laser sword. Obi-Wan and the crew saw Qui-Gon fighting a Dark Force-user. Qui-Gon likely knew more as he was the one fighting this guy!

Now it’s possible he concluded that Maul was a Sith Lord since all he would have known is that the Sith were the ones who used red lightsabers. This suggests that they never had to deal with Force-users wielding red lightsabers without actually being Siths. To them, red lightsaber=Sith.

That said, it would’ve been exceedingly obvious for them to send a bit more than two Jedi to deal with this apparent Sith Lord because (1) they don’t know if this is just the apprentice, or the Master Sith himself. The parameters had changed — the Jedi are no longer dealing with a mere trade dispute. Even Qui-Gon implied that to the Queen when he said, “I can’t fight a war for you.” Two Jedi are not enough to fight an entire army with a Dark Jedi/Sith among their ranks. Whether they believed in Qui-Gon’s claims or not, they really should’ve taken this new development seriously.

 

The Jedi Council did take it seriously, but their hands were also tied. Chancellor Valorum was just kicked out of office and the Senate is in turmoil. A special election was being held to replace Valorum. The Council could not break ranks and do what they want, in order to deal with the Naboo crisis. Even Palpatine knew that they wouldn't do it and Qui-gon himself wouldn't take charge.

DARTH MAUL: "I feel there is more to this, My Master. The two Jedi may be using the Queen for their own purposes."

DARTH SIDIOUS: "The Jedi cannot become involved. They can only protect the Queen. Even Qui-Gon Jinn will not break that covenant.... This will work to our advantage..."

There would be repercussions if the Jedi did anything beyond what they did. Qui-gon never leads the mission to take Theed. He only protects her and lets Padme do all the work. Both in the fight and in negotiating an alliance with Boss Nass before then. During the war, the Jedi are able to take charge in situations like that.

 

What is scarier than a highly trained assassin trying to kill you? Like seriously, why would he not have reason to be scared? IMO he wasn't scared enough, as soon as Qui-Gon escapes he's giggling on the ship.

So like he said. He never states that he doesn't believe Qui-Gon. The scene beings with Qui-Gon wrapping up his testimony to the Council, nothing was shown to imply Obi-Wan disagreed.

Okay, how is this relevant to what I said?

Not according to the film. Yoda was the last Jedi Master and Obi-Wan was dead.

History.

And Qui-Gon died because the Council didn't prepare.

So the Jedi were tools of the Republic. When they got the okay from the Senate they were allowed to show up and help. But when the conflict wasn't Senate approved they were willing to basically sacrifice one of their own to maintain secrecy.

So send 5 Jedi to "protect the Queen." Problem solved. Instead, they weighed those repercussions above Qui-Gon, Obi-Wan, Anakin and the Queen's lives.

 

To be fair, this is a well-known psychological phenomenon. After enduring a tragedy or a trauma, some will laugh. It’s not because they’re suddenly broken from all of reality; its’ rather more of them releasing the stress. This is what Anakin is doing: relieving the built-in stress whether he really knows it or not.

While it’s hugely possible Anakin had never faced the threat of being run over by a scary monster, he’s grown up as a slave and likely had been threaten with violence before. Plus he competes (alibet unwillingly) in a highly dangerous sport in which the contestants face certain death. We saw several of them die during the big racing scene.

Violence, maiming, and people getting killed isn’t exactly a foreign concept to Anakin. If anything else, he’s used to it.

I always wondered that — why didn’t the Council ask Obi-Wan as well? He was there!

To be fair, I think Sinister meant that despite having a high midichlorian count, the Council was still unwilling to train Anakin. It took Qui-Gon’s death and Obi-Wan openly defying the Council for them to change their minds.

Though I’m remembering something, the Council did agree to have Anakin train as a Jedi despite Yoda’s reservations. It was Obi-Wan who pressed the issue of “I alone will train him!”

Plus, Yoda said, “When gone I am, the last of the Jedi...will you be.” There is no official living Jedi Council anymore, just two (three, counting Anakin) Jedi ghosts that only Luke can sense.

I’m a bit confused here.

This does put them in a really bad light. :[

Good idea! Though to be fair, did they know about the Queen’s sudden plan to go back to Naboo? And Anakin is a whole different matter.