Saga Mega thread: Sequels and spinoff films and the overall saga

I'm kind of amazed that the Snoke Origin Crisis is still so perplexing to some, but a lot of that seems to have been addressed here...

1) Star Wars always starts "in media res", up to and including Episode I. You don't get a five-minute intro like in Lynch's Dune... you get a crawl drawing broad strokes about the state of the galaxy, but even that assumes you "know" a bit about Trade Federations or Empires or First Orders (which are basically so archetypal that not much more need be said). Being 30 years after the OT, the ST naturally starts out about as "in res" as media gets. New evil faction rises from the ashes of the old with a new leader. Simples.

2) Did anyone honestly have a full-on Robbie the Robot "does not compute" inability to understand the story of TFA due to the lack of a detailed backstory for Snoke? Like he's there on the throne giving orders and being called the Supreme Leader but we're not really sure if maybe he's not just a pet store owner whose hologram got patched through by accident? The story is *not* difficult to follow (see for comparison, again, Lynch's "Dune", or, closer to home, AOTC).

3) Snoke serves an entirely different narrative purpose from Palpatine, thankfully, particularly since it's one alluded to but never before shown in the saga: the dark side master being deposed by the apprentice. In fact I know I'm not the only one who thought that this turn of events was practically telegraphed by Snoke's not-too-interesting-or-original depiction, and that, from the get-go, he was there to be sliced up by Ren. The Palpatine-Vader dynamic, where the apprentice will ultimately not follow the dark side imperative but reject it, demands a little more development of that relationship. Snoke's basically just an onscreen equivalent of Plagueis in the PT. Plagueis still doesn't have a canon backstory but that doesn't seem to be a big problem in general. Again, "in media res", on at least some level, is the Star Wars way.

4) This kind of thing literally is what the now-canon ancillary media stuff is there for. If you want to see what kind of a drag unnecessary backstory can have on a narrative, you've always got the shoehorning of the Fetts into the PT for... reasons? ... at the expense of more important narrative beats that needed a whole animated series to retroactively cover. Yes, it would be nice to know how Snoke's corruption of Ben Solo went down, but it can't be "shown" -- the Rashomon flashbacks in TLJ are in my mind among the least effective segments in a film I otherwise like a lot -- and it can't be monologued about without putting the brakes on the narrative flow. It'll be told elsewhere, as it should be.

 

Snoke Theories are not allowed.

 

That's exactly what happens to Palpatine. The only difference is that the Vader analogue here survives instead of dying too.

Edit: And it's perfectly clear what the FO are. The Empire. I every way that matters, they are the Empire.

When people want exposition and backstory, they a) want to know how the previously defeated entity returned without any after-effects from ROTJ, and b) to hopefully find some minute distinction to distinguish them from the original. I was hoping we'd get backstory for Snoke at some point in TLJ, because otherwise he was just a lazy Palpatine clone. Turns out that was exactly what he was.

 

So are we talking about Snoke in terms of failing to be depicted as people had hoped? And not how he needed to be depicted, using Palpatine (simply an evil archetype of no specific origin or history) in the OT as a benchmark.

 

Yes, we were:

"Hard to see the dark side is." - Yoda

"The dark side of the Force has clouded their vision." - Dooku

It's possible to hide from the Jedi (who don't use the dark side). Not from the Sith who do use and are connected to the dark side.

So he was just waiting for the Empire to fall? At least the PT showed what the Sith were aiming for in their subterfuge. With Snoke, he just appears in power out of thin air.

Ignorant query?! It's precisely because I've knowledge of the previous movies that I'm making these perfectly valid questions. Otherwise I would just accept what's been presented in TFA, precisely because I wouldn't know what came before.

Sure, they can just dump in IX what they should have told us from the beginning. Not really important anymore though, considering that he's dead.

We are not talking about spin-offs. We are talking about the main saga.

You continue to address strawmen that are completely irrelevant. The OT were chapters IV, V and VI. It doesn't matter if it took a day, 16 years or 100. There were three chapters missing that were reserved for past events. That's not the case here. We had the events of VI and jumped directly to VII with still no explanation for the current situation even after VIII.

?! TESB was Episode V from the get go (and ANH was IV soon after). How exactly does that not imply three previous chapters of story to tell? There were more movies to make. Wether he personally would make them or get the chance to is irrelevant to what's being argued. Stick to the topic.

No, because we were told those were chapters IV and V, so there was room for the character to be explored. Which it was, as expected. Had he not been explored, I would make the same criticism. Fortunately Lucas knows the basics of storytelling.

No, it was not directly stated. It was indirectly done so (and in my opinion, it's the best way to address exposition instead of dumping information in an unnatural way to the audience). It's established that the Sith have a history with the Jedi. They are even trained in the same martial arts. They were deemed extinct by the Jedi and by the time of TPM they are about to reveal themselves and exact revenge against them. Even a kid can understand what's going on.

Clouded to their presence (and therefore, their existence too), yes. What about it?

Already addressed above.

Precisely, and my point is that we know that because the movies showed/told us that. We are told nothing about Snoke.

 

And contained within that is the excuse that George gave for not explaining how just one very evil man can infiltrate a peaceful society and work his evil will on an entire galaxy and right under the Jedi's noses. We are told the Jedi don't have the capacity to intuit this happening. So therefore it does not require being shown on-screen exactly how and when Sidious managed his initial steps which provided him with cover right up till he turned Anakin. The Jedi don't know. So we don't get to know.

Why does it need explained or re-explained rthat the presence of individuals like Sidious and Snoke is not detectable by Jedi. The excuse provided by the PT ( "dark side clouds everything" ) means that what Jedi cannot foresee or sense happening isn't otherwise explained or exposited in Star Wars movies.

 

It's not the pejorative. IT defines the two small lines of dialogue which excused the Jedi from having a clue and excused George from making a trilogy (or a nonology) tangential to the PT about how Sidious became Palpatine and infiltrated Naboo society and the Senate completely undetected or suspected.

If the dark side clouds everything and that's why the Jedi and the story are oblivious to Sidious's infiltration, then that is the built in excuse for the saga not providing a back story to Snoke being hitherto similarly unheard of. Without the need to conduct a constitutional coup, there is no need to repeat the course taken to power. The defeated imperials needed a replacement for Sidious in order to combat the New Republic and Luke's Nascent Jedi order. They found Snoke or he found them. How they found him does not materially affect the story of the ST so far. Many of us may like to know how, of course.

 

I could have but only in relation to the in*story explanation of a power that the Jedi lack or what the dark side possesses. It doesn't "explain" why Lucas elected not to make a movie about the Senator from Naboo's backstory and management of his secret identity (the explanation is that it's supposed to be a secret from the audience). Also I didn't imagine "excuse" to be a baiting word (unless it is used inappropriately) or the sensitive reader chooses to take that one word out of its context.

The ST's excuse is that the "dark side clouds everything" and Snoke's origins do not materially affect the story.

The OT's excuse was that the main characters of those films filled out the story so well that the true nature and origin of the dreaded Emperor was not required, until he begun to play an active role in it. (and it wasn't really decided what that role should be until after first movie was a success)

I've used "excuse" extensively and equitably across the entire saga now.

Now. Excuse me while I kiss the sky.

 

Correct. We don't need the established ability of DS users remaining hidden re-stated. That's ridiculous. Even non-DS Force users can hide for decades in the desert or in a swamp. "How did Snoke stay hidden?" is a question only one who hasn't seen Eps I-VI would ask.

Exactly. And what is Snoke a master of? The Dark Side. If a viewer can't connect those dots & work out that Snoke is quite capable of remaining undetected then maybe they're not quite ready for the SW movies. They should stick to Lego SW & revisit the films in a few years.

What's funny to me is that some people think those couple of lines of dialogue represent some inspired story idea that brilliantly explains how a Sith Lord can have daily contact with countless Jedi - for years - & stay hidden. I'm not sure that's particularly brilliant at all. It raises questions, like if this "Sith cloaking device" is so damned effective, why did they wait a thousand years to make their move? This ability made the Jedi look like bumbling fools. It's astonishing that a Sith can be sitting across a desk from the greatest Jedi in the galaxy & they suspect nothing. Apparently the Sith can infiltrate & then ambush the Jedi at will. That's one of the most dangerous abilities imaginable. Yet they can't use that to a decisive advantage over 1000 years??

Interesting. Pls tell us the source that confirms that it's impossible for a DS user to remain undetected from another DS user. Clearly Yoda (& Lucas) is unaware of this since he said "The DS clouds everything". If only Yoda & the Jedi knew that they simply needed to channel the DS for a few mins to detect the Sith Lord living under their noses. You make it sound like the DS is a frequency & all you need to do is tune into that frequency & Bob's your uncle.

Like every villain in SW apart from Vader. Even Sidious in TPM is just there. The same dude in the same cloak as in the OT. Just as Snoke had been already corrupting Ben Solo & the political system, Palpatine had also somehow bent the system to his will. Establishing a hold over major commercial groups. Corrupting the Senate. Training his own apprentice. That all happened prior to Ep I - off screen.

Are you talking about Snoke or the Emperor after RotJ?

& virtually nothing about Maul, Dooku, Grievous & even the Emperor in the OT. We didn't even know his name!

We're talking about Star Wars. The canonical story, which is made up of the episodic Saga & the spin-offs & other material. R1 shows exactly how the DS plans were obtained. It establishes the backstory of ANH. Those facts & events are just as valid as anything shown in the "main Saga".

 

Hold it, where is it ever established that Dark side users can always sense each other?
That no sith can hide from someone else?
PPOR.

Also, the Sith could not sense Yoda in the OT and they only sensed Luke some of the time.

You are still using the faulty premiss that the OT was incomplete, this is wrong.
It was and is complete.
People could watch those films and follow what is going on and understand what is happening.
All you NEEDED to know is IN the films.
The rest is backstory.

You don't NEED to know exactly how the emperor became that, emperor, or how exactly he turned Vader.
The OT isn't about that.
It is about Luke, his journey to become a Jedi, to avoid his father's fate and to try and save that father.
Who exactly Palpatine is not needed.

Also, Star Wars did NOT have the Ep IV at first.
So according to you, it was a bad film because it didn't explain who the emperor was, how he rose to power, how exactly Vader turned to the dark side etc.

But just by adding IV to the crawl, now all those problems were gone.
And the OT stood on their own for 15 years.
Say Lucas had never made the PT, either due to lack of interest or that he had died, would they suddenly become terrible because the PT were not made.
This logic I don't get.

No it is very relevant because the OT is a self contained story, it works on it's own. As is evident that it did exactly that for over 15 years. And people liked or even loved it. By your argument, people hated the films until the PT was made because only then did they make sense.

The OT does not need the PT to complete it because it is already complete.
The PT adds more details, fleshes out some backstory that can certainly add the OT or give it more layers etc.
But it does not make it complete, as it has been complete since 1983.

But here you demand that the films DIRECTLY state HOW Snoke was not sensed by the Sith.
HOW he was able to keep his power hunger under control.
WHERE exactly he came from.

With the PT you are able and willing to read between the lines and assume things etc.
Not so with the ST, now everything has to be stated very clearly and we have to have long scenes of exposition.

So since it is established that Force users are not omniscient and do not sense every one, all the time, Snoke being undetected by the Jedi and Sith is not an issue. Yet you want to it make it one.
Force sensing is not exact, Vader and Palpatine can sense Luke in ESB but not Yoda.
In RotJ, Vader senses Luke but Palpatine does not.
In RotS Anakin and Obi-Wan sense Dooku yet they don't sense Palpatine.

And I question it and ask that you provide film evidence that a dark side user can not hide from another.

[/QUOTE]

No you question how Snoke could wait and hide as he was power hungry back then.
The sith had been power hungry and they waited for a millennia.
So why are you unable to apply this to Snoke?
The PT establishes that even power hungry dark side users can be very patient and wait for the right time.
Why does this need to be repeated in the ST?

And the PT don't explain HOW the sith managed to keep their hunger for power in check for all that time, we are just told that they did. No explanation given.
So we don't need to be told HOW Snoke managed to keep his hunger for power under control either.
He just did.

Nor does it explain HOW the dark side clouds the Jedi, it just does.

For what the story needs, we have been told all we need to know about Snoke.
He isn't the focus, this isn't about him.
He corrupted Ben and he played a part on Ben turning. And we are told what he did and what his plans was in TLJ.
But he underestimated Kylo and now he is dead.
Kylo is the focus and always was, even in TFA.
We don't need more about Snoke, Kylo is the one that matters.

Ex, take LotR and Sauron. He is the main villain but how much do we learn about him?
Why he became bad, how, for what reason?
Not much at all.
And we don't need to know this as the story isn't about him, how he became the evil Dark Lord etc.

Bye for now.
Old Stoneface

 

This isn't anything new of an opinion, but New trilogy feels so self contained compared to all the other movies. It feels like it takes place in it's own separate small galaxy vs the huge star wars galaxy

 

Agreed. The galaxy somehow seems smaller.

 

You mean the galaxy where Anakin built 3PO as a mother's day present? The droid who 30 years later stumbles across his son. R2 was in the service of Luke & Leia's mother, then was their father's droid, then he was purchased by Luke's uncle. The uncle who as once his grandmother's stepson. Oh & when 3PO & Owen were chatting in ANH, they were both standing outside the house where they lived together - for years. Then there's Boba Fett's dad arresting Anakin, who years later hires Boba to track down the Falcon, which contains Chewie who was pals with Yoda who mentored Anakin when he was younger. Etc etc. The biggest coincidence in the OT was that Leia & Luke were siblings. No other glaringly unlikely contrivances existed. IMO the galaxy later shrunk to something more akin to a daytime soap opera. So far the ST is expanding the galaxy. The complaints about Snoke actually support this. He's seemingly not connected to anyone from the past. He's no one's uncle or third cousin. The galaxy is vast & exists far beyond even Republic or Imperial space. He arrived from regions unknown. Rey is no one’s daughter or niece. We also don't see the same old aliens in every environment we visit. Why should we, again it's a vast galaxy with millions of different species. I completely disagree with your view on this point.

 

You misunderstand us. Or me, at least. The galaxy feels, to me, like a physically smaller place in the new trilogy, because the world building, or lack thereof, fails to give off the feeling that there are countless civilized worlds out there, inhabited by people who are affected by the events depicted in the films.

Episodes I-III are the strongest ones in this regard, but even in IV-VI, there was a tangible sense that the Empire was all over the galaxy and that the Rebellion was therefore highly significant for everybody.

 

Not to mention the fact that Snoke is literally identical to Palpatine in almost every way, which doesn't exactly scream 'bigger galaxy'.

 

I found him to be a vastly different personality. With different methods used to manipulate, & also different powers.
Nothing made the galaxy seem smaller than everyone bumping into each other like the Saga is set in a small town. With everyone either being connected or one degree from a strong connection to each other.

 

I like that aspect of GL's story and have never felt that it makes the galaxy seem smaller.
"The amazing shrinking universe" is a myth

 

Jedha was the best location in TFA/R1/TLJ imo.
TFA felt like it was setting something incredible but TLJ was way too inconsistent in tone imo. The Luke/Rey/Ben thing (though there were interesting things there), the FO chasing the Resistance for most of the film. The Finn and Rose stuff expanded the galaxy with Canto Bight but got small again when leaving all the way to Crait, just to have the ending with kids.

 

You will have to explain to me how that is mini-modding. Did the mods actually ban Snoke Theories?

 

There is no world building in this new trilogy at all? there was in the prequel trilogy far more than there was in the OT. So far in the ST we know that all new planets have to be like Earth, like Tatooine, or Like Hoth, or like Monte Carlo all the time and space in general seems so much smaller in this trilogy. BTW, Kylo Ren is a fellow Skywalker, C-3PO, and R2-D2 seem to always be the mcguffins to every key plot in star wars. We're not sure about Rey being a nobody even Johnson confirms that, The First Order is not explained at all, neither is Snoke (it was never confirmed if he was that dark presence in the unknown regions and he's a carbon copy of Palpatine). The galaxy in the ST has shrunk by far...
and I'm not a hater of the ST at all...but I will point out it's flaws. Currently I think at least the ST has many many "little glaring contrivances"...

Who else agrees me that Lucas was the best at world building and that the PT had the best world building by far?

 

GL's amazing "world building" is a bit exaggerated IMO. Let's put the OT aside due to technological limitations & look at the post digital age. In terms of the environments in the PT, I'd guess that 90% of all of the scenes in the trilogy set on a planet occur on Tatooine, Naboo & Coruscant. Tatooine is just...Tatooine from the OT. Naboo is Earth with Gungans. Blue skies, white clouds, green grass, birds flying around. The Naboo use classical Earth-like architecture. Coruscant is a blend of the city-scapes from Blade Runner & the Fifth Element. In any case it's a bunch of skyscrapers. That's if we even attribute that world to the PT, since its debut was in the RotJ SE in '97. Some of the lesser seen worlds were good though. Although Geonosis was clearly "inspired" by Barsoom from John Carter, & Kamino was a mesh of Leigh Brackett & Ralph McQuarrie's old ideas. There are some new & unique environments on display, but not a lot & usually only during blink or you'll miss them scenes.

As for his other world building, the economic & political systems & processes on display are just Earth facsimiles. There are senators & representatives. They meet in a parliament & propose motions & vote on laws & legislation. There are ambassadors & chancellors & lobby groups & trade guilds. I can't see a lot of unique distinctive world building there. IMO world building, which has become an overused buzz-phrase in the past year or two is all a bit overrated. So far the ST has focused on the characters more, & the conflict between the two factions. Which is fine with me. I'm not sure that exploring the ins & outs of politics or economics is necessary within a space fantasy tale.