ST The ST: What Would You Change/Revise?

My problem is, I read half of these clarifications and my eyes glaze over. Getting the balance right between the lore and logic issues and keeping the drama moving and something general audiences can get is a very fine line. And most of the suggestions I’m seeing so far would not make it through development. We have to keep trying.


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Arms dealers, a note of geopolitical exposition, did make it through the development process. That required at least two or three lines. I omit my objections; I only point out that it offers a suitable standard for assessing what might get through in terms of expository lore.

 

Sure. I’m talking in general. If you can suggest where the dialogue should go and what it should be, great.


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I saw it again yesterday with my 6 & 8 yo sons :

They absolutely loved it & were glued to their seats the whole time ( a rear feat )

There is basically nothing to change - Rian did a fantastic job ,

The only thing I would have done was to have Lando cameo on Canto Bight - he should have been playing a table with lots of ladies around......

 

A couple of initial suggestions:

Geopolitical explanation: Between the first Rey-Luke sequence and the second Resistance sequence have a montage of the galactic chaos. Have various battles across various worlds. A couple of lines sprinkled throughout perhaps:

A admiral enters the bridge and walks over to an officer. The battle against the First Order rages outside.

ADMIRAL: Have we made contact with any other planetary defence forces or allies? We're sitting ducks by ourselves.

OFFICER: No communications are getting through General. The enemy has successfully disrupted all the primary galactic communication systems.

ADMIRAL: It's a rout. We can't mount a defence if we can't regroup.

OFFICER: Surely our allies will arrive.

ADMIRAL: There's no way of knowing how many are left or how far the enemies advanced. Escape to hyperspace, that'll buy us some time.

Another:

GENERAL: Have you switched to secret communications networks?

OFFICER: Yes, sir. No responses from allied forces, only news that the Core has fallen.

GENERAL: Already? Any word from the the Princess?

OFFICER: None sir.

The General looks dejected. A blast engulfs the command post.

Hux and the Resistance Fleet: I'd add the lines:

OFFICER: Should we cut them off sir? Two Destroyers are available.

HUX: No. I want the Princess's fleet to die slowly.

I'll post more later.

 

I'd suggest that if this is not a thread for criticism, then its not the thread for praise, either.

To the main discussion:
I don't know where we are on the whole 'take issues one at a time, chronologically' plan, but one simple idea I have re: Holdo. If we want there to be distrust between Poe and Holdo, just make her a New Republic officer, instead of a Resistance officer.

 

This works for me very well. TLJ Hux has a lot of unused potential, and he gets off on the wrong foot. TFA Hux cuts a different figure from the company men of OT. He is apparently born into it rather than dragged into it, or drawn to it by native ambition. TFA Hux has a spit and venom, especially during his TFA Nuremburg, that would make General Tagge make General Tagge's face. I can buy a Hux that is more Shindler's List Amon Goth than any OT Imperial officer ever was. Not that this is a drawback, but it would remove him from the sympathy the OT officers earned. He would become more inaccessible. His function in the story is not to develop, so that may not be any issue. TFA Hux had a dash of parity with Kylo (Tarkin), but TLJ Hux has no credible leverage. He could yet remain dangerous to the viewer, vicariously, through this koolaid sadism. Another good option to kill two birds, narrative thumb on scale and the sketch or profile of a man.

 

Late to the party (again) but love the idea of this thread. Not got time right now to digest all that has been posted so far so won't react or adapt what I am about to post here until I get time. I originally posted this a few weeks back in the rewriting the ST thread. I came at it from a position of a script doctor approach rather than "write a completely different script" so the basic elements remain the same although I have altered the structure a little and moved scenes around.

Could be complete rubbish of course and will no doubt not work under serious scrutiny!

Oh and in my version of the ST Coruscant was the capital. And SKB was also a huge set of docks where you were shown the FO building their fleet. Plus you didn't see Luke at the end of TFA. The last scene was Rey and Chewie setting off (like end of TESB)...

(Changed crawl...)
Coruscant the capital of the NEW REPUBLIC
has been destroyed. Supreme Leader Snoke
has unleashed the merciless legions of the
FIRST ORDER to seize control of the galaxy.

Only General Leia Organa's forces stand
against the rising tyranny, certain that
Jedi Master Luke Skywalker will return
and restore a spark of hope to the fight.

The decimated New Republic forces try to
regroup, but their rendezvous has been
exposed. As the First Order fleet arrives
the brave heroes mount a desperate escape...

Changes made to script/story:
1. The opening scene is a battle between what remains of the New Republic fleet and the new First Order fleet (not simply an escape by Resistance). Snoke has ordered the capture of Leia (as a way to get to Luke) rather than the destruction of the cruiser. (Also Poe does not punk Hux by being on hold, Hux remains a credible character).
2. Rey, Chewie and R2D2 arrive on Ahch To, it has taken them a few months to find their way! When Rey arrives and finds Luke he looks at her with great sadness and says "I have been expecting you!" He then refuses to take the lightsaber "I do not want that nor will I take it!"
3. Hux leads part of the FO fleet in pursuit of Leia's resistance cruiser (neither Snoke or the Supremacy are there). All communication signals are being blocked and the hyper drive has been sabotaged on the cruiser - so there is a traitor onboard! (some people suspect Finn?)
4. When the TIE fighters attack Leia does not freeze in space but instead uses the Force to hold back the imploding Windows on the bridge long enough for many of the crew to escape before she is overcome by the effort and blown backwards through the doors which seal against the vacuum. Leia is still seriously injured.
5. Poe (not Holdo) takes command in Leia's absence and when examining the star charts identifies Crait as being nearby (with Canto Bight on the way where there is a HoloNet relay station (Galactic Communication Node) and a Resistance sleeper cell) so they set course for Crait (no HoloNet chat with Maz).
6. Finn and Rose offer to go to nearby Canto Bight. Poe (against advice of some who are suspicious of Finn) agrees and tells them to find the Resistance agent (DJ) to get a signal sent to remaining New Republic forces by breaking into the HoloNet relay station.
7. During the training of Rey (which lasts for longer) Luke warns her about the pull of the dark side and how Snoke will call to her and manipulate her through others and that she must resist "you are the strongest force user I have ever seen, but your skills are too raw, untrained and unfocused. You are vulnerable to the dark side!"
8. On Canto Bight Finn and Rose are more competent, they hide their ship!. They find DJ and it is Finn (the former child slave of the FO) who wants to free the animals (and kids?). However they are captured by Phasma and storm troopers (who are lying in wait) and are taken back to Hux's flagship where Rose is revealed as the traitor/FO spy!
9. Poe positions the resistance cruiser between the FO fleet and Crait to shield the smaller ships escaping down to the planet.
10. Sensing the danger her friends face Rey leaves Luke (against his advice "believe me I have done what you are doing, this will not go way you expect!") with Chewie and heads for Crait.
11. After Rey has left Luke and Yoda's Force Ghost speak. Luke says "She doesn't know who she is does she!"
12. Leia uses the Force to bolster the shield against the FO ship's lasers before Leia (not Holdo) pilots the cruiser and crashes it into Hux's ship sacrificing herself to protect the Resistence. Just before she dies she communes with Luke who feels her die finally forcing him into action!
13. In the chaos of the dying FO ship, Finn and DJ manage to escape (the sneaking about in FO uniforms being then) and capture Rose taking her to Crait (Finn still fights Phasma, BB8 and DJ operate the AT ST).
14. After initially escaping on Crait and taking a ship to head back to the FO fleet Rose redeems herself by deciding instead to sacrifice herself (by crashing into the siege cannon) to save Finn.
15. When Luke "appears" on Crait to confront Kylo his immense power is shown when he first crushes and topples several of the AT AT walkers!
16. Luke doesn't die when using the Force to appear on Crait but we do see him exhausted and even close to death through the effort (he will die in next film).
17. Snoke's ship the Supremacy arrives now!
18. Having helped evacuate the remaining Resistance on the Falcon, Rey then goes to the Supremacy via pod.
19. Rey is tortured by Snoke but then Kylo joins with her and they kill Snoke and the praetorian guards. The penultimate scene of the film is Kylo asking Rey to join him but we do not see her final response!
20. The last scene of the film is Luke raising his X wing out of the water and then leaving the Ahch-To out of exile to join the resistance.

 

This seems a good post to use as the basis for the question, but sure;y the point of this thread isn’t just to write a personal wish list, but to seek to find compromise to please everyone - so wholesale changes like this are a non starter

 

@CEB as I said not had time to digest thread so far (and need to take my daughter to athletics so will be later). Have to say though that this is not really wish listing on my part (oh ok maybe it is) as my approach was to fix a few things that don't sit well with me (the extended slow chase, incompetence of Finn on Canto Bight, giving Finn and Rose arc more meaning IMO etc)

Nothing I have done fundamentally changes the story IMO but it works better structurally IMO.

 

Yeah. I think if this thread is going to work - while I appreciate the energy and effort! - we have to try and keep the focus on one beat at a time. And also, the compromise is going to have to go both ways. It can't just be - "I don't like this, my way is better" - if there is going to be a change, the alternative has to be "better", which is going to mean persuading why the issue is a problem, and why the fix is the answer, just as would happen when discussing the notes given on any script or project - and there is always back and forth and difference of opinion. Often very strong.

Did we agree on the Poe and Hux exchanges?

I think the stalling Hux is good, and I think it's important thematically to keep Hux's hubris in there. The only thing I'd suggest doing is toning down the humour a touch. A little is fine, and not too far from Han's dialogue in ANH, but maybe there is a way to tweak it so those who found it too much aren't drawn out of the story. It's hard without the script in front of us.

@Dukeleto69 - I think the problem with changing the structure is that the failure of the Poe and Finn missions is the point of them. Both characters learn from those failures (and in Finn's case, temptation). Both those arcs provide a lot of good character development. I'm happy to see if we can tweak certain elements within them, but I don't think we should change things radically. But that will also be helped if we hash out each point at a time because you have to be able to track everything through.

 

@Satipo just managed to quickly scan what came before and see what you are trying to do...ie one step at a time so we can build it up and keep it manageable so...

Change crawl = yes (I provided my suggestion)

Opening battle = yes (I provided my suggestion, ie not just Resistance, but also agree the slow bombers needs...something?) also I have been vocal that I do not like Hux being undermined as a credible antagonist by being picked by Poe (in a real world style).

Saber toss = oh my god yes. Luke needs to either refuse to take it, takes it but feels something bad and forces it back to Rey or drops it but not an irreverent toss over his shoulder!

 

Yeah I agree just tone down the humour.

Maybe just a back and forth of increasingly radical and crazy lines.

HUX: You're traitorous scum.

POE: Well actually the Republic is the legitimate government the Empire was officially....

HUX: You will bow before our military might; surrender and...

POE: Well if you'd like to come for terms...

Or maybe it could just be Poe seemingly genuinely looking for a negotiated peace, then we discover he's actually just stalling.

 

The slow bombers, I don't have a problem with.

The bombers in WW2 regularly got torn to shreds, and their destruction is key to that sequence.

Could there be a way for them not to be taken out in one swoop perhaps?

I'd need to see it again, the feeling I got was that the TIE crashing into the open bomb bay was was what triggered the destruction and they were kind of doing OK until that point.

We're all agreed on the saber toss.

I think it's fine Poe needles Hux and I don't mind Hux being the rabid cur/ weasel type. But I don't mind reducing the humour a touch (it's weird though, my friends who are more casual fans all loved that scene).

How does everyone else feel about those suggestions?

ETA - let's not bother writing our own dialogue. Without the script it's hard to properly revise, and with no wish to offend anyone, I think we can all admit that most of us might not be that strong at writing dialogue. Let's just focus on agreeing what we think the "note" should be.

That'll also be quicker and perhaps easier to agree on.

 

Sorry to disagree again, but I think (especially considering that Poe ends up pretty much in charge of the resistance) that his humour is essential, and was established in TFA as his method of dealing with the First Order. He refers to them as thugs who he will not be bullied by, he ridicules Kylo Ren”s mask.
I think it makes absolute sense based on his character that, even after the destruction of Hosnian, Poe communicates with Hux by undermining him and exposing his grandstanding as being that of an insecure little man.
I think that exposing the first order as ridiculous is going to be a different prong of the recruiting strategy, alongside the inspiration of Luke

 

I like the humour, I just wonder if you could tone it down, or rework it a little. I do like him skewering Hux's pomposity. That is great. I think it's a mistake to change that aspect, I agree.

For me, it might only mean editing "I can hear you, can you hear me". I feel like he might have snapped by then. I have no problem with Poe "holding". If they have comms, presumably you might have to hold sometimes.

 

I guess you could rework it, but without dialogue it’s hard to actually do it. Toning it down means toning down quite how much Poe insults Hux, which I don’t like the idea of. I don’t buy the idea that it ruins Hux’s character - Hux has a;ready proven himself irredeemably evil. He’s just pathetic as well, which again, thematically, I like.

 

I agree. For me, without having the scene in front of me, I think it's editing out the can you hear me line. That's it.

 

Ok, well I can agree to that

 

I guess this is where the compromise slowly kills the thread lol.

Maybe we have to think about it as an experiment where we're unsure of the overall results, so we see what the compromise version is, if there is one. Then, once it's all put together, have a look at what it looks like. I suspect it will probably look like a diluted mess, but we can see if there are areas where people can agree on more than we might think.

 

No offence taken. I'm writing it literally on the spot to get the point across. But fair enough.

 

It was more a general point, and I can see what the thinking was. If we had the script in front of us it would be easier. If those are wild lines something like that could work. And that kind of detail dialogue looks like what it looks like anyway.

 

I think the thing people had the most problem with is the fact it's a 'your mamma' joke. Something the first time I didn't pick up on because I thought he was actually hinting at some history between Leia and Hux's mother (who was no doubt a fascist *****).

 

Humour is fine and yes it is established as Poe's character in TFA (the "who speaks first" actually works fine for me). I have been vocal in my dislike of the knowing realworld reference of the "on hold" approach (but this is Satipo's thread and they like it) so for me just some tonal changes. The most important thing to me is that even though Poe uses humour to stall the FO I do not want Hux undermined as a credible antagonist and as it stands he becomes a comedy foil and buffoon.

 

OK, well, in the spirit of compromise, I think we need to identify in which ways you feel Hux is not a credible antagonist and then we can see how we can address those without losing the bullied angle that I think some of us like. There is a Draco Malfoy quality to him that is important to hold on to, and I think the Throne Room scene 0 where he almost shoots Kylo - is the key to that balance. He's a weasel, and a sadist. Rabid cur is great. He is not Tarkin. We need to remember that. And his hubris is crucial.I would also hate to lose the weariness with which Peavy, Kylo and Canada treat this zealot. If we dial too much of that back he becomes a fairly anonymous Imperial type - which is kind of what we he was in TFA. I think he's way more interesting in TLJ.