CT Plot Holes in the CT

As I said earlier, if the Falcon were completely unflyable, Leia and company would leave it and steal another ship. The Falcon was set up as their trap, and it was baited by making it seem like the best means of escape... up to the point where it was supposed to fail.

 

^ Delicious Vader malevolence and better-safe-than-sorry planning ahead.

 

Lucas was following his original story of the Starkillers living on a desert planet, in hiding from the Sith and the Empire. Once he decided to make Vader and Anakin the same person, he had to keep that part of the backstory in tact. Now, he did choose to change Owen to being Obi-wan's brother, but then never used it in the film and abandoned it all together since he couldn't really make that gel. In the end, Luke is more unremarkable than his father, which allows him to be hidden.

The Empire is not looking for Jedi anymore, only Vader and the Inquisitors were. And not once does Vader ever consider Tatooine to be a place that a Jedi would out at. He does believe that Obi-wan is alive, but not hiding on his home world. It is arrogance on his part to believe so.

Lucas didn't take that opportunity because he didn't see it as an issue.

She's only addressed as Padme on Tatooine and Coruscant. Nute and Rune only know her as Queen Amidala, because she took on a royal moniker when she was elected. They don't know that she was born as Padme Naberrie. Nute and Rune only ever address her as the Queen, Your Royal Highness and Queen Amidala. Palpatine never bothers to tell Nute that the elected royalty of Naboo have often used decoys.

 

@darth-sinister thanks I will take it from that response that you now agree with me

 

So they allowed Leia to escape? The Imperials were in on it somehow?

So just to unpack this, Vader thought that even though he had the 3 or 4 rebels surrounded with dozens of troops & had them under arrest he'd plan for the possibility that they might escape. Furthermore, if they escaped he thought that if the Falcon couldn't fly they might find another ship & there's a chance that they might steal it & that it would have its own hyperdrive. So better to let them take off in the Falcon & only need to pursue them around the Bespin system at sublight speed. Is that about the gist of it?

The only way to evaluate the decision to have Luke & Ben keep their real names is to look at the time the decision was made. Which was back when they arrived on Tatooine. At this point the Jedi purge was just beginning. Obi-Wan was just one of hundreds or thousands of Jedi hiding out. Going by his real surname is exactly as stupid as any of the other Jedi in hiding doing the same thing. It's also completely unnecessary since a name change is a very easy thing. Esp on a world where nobody knows who you are.
For Luke it's even worse. Obi-Wan later describes his motive for taking Luke to Tatooine as hiding him from the Emperor. Who would perceive him as a threat. Having the kid use Vader's real name is idiotic. This is a name Luke will carry his entire life. Who knows where he will grow up & travel to, or what circles he will mix in. You're giving him to the Lars to raise. Why not use their name? If you're trying to safeguard the child's life at a time where the Purge is just beginning, which option would be your preference? This makes a mockery of the whole Jedi Purge. If a Jedi can simply move to an Outer Rim world & hide undetected - even while keeping their real name - then at the time of the OT there still should still be a lot of Jedi left. Ben & Luke made it look easy.

Canon source or is this a baseless assumption? Since the TF are about to enter into important negotiations with this queen it's quite possible that they'd call up her Wikipedia page & learn as much as they can about her. It's far too risky to assume they wouldn't do that. And to bet the queen's life on that assumption.

Again, let's go back to the decision in order to evaluate it. You decide to have a decoy pose as the queen & the queen disguise herself as a handmaiden. It's already a bit risky given the two girls look so similar. Still, you take that risk. Now, when having the decoy queen or anyone else address the real queen do you (a) call her by her real name, or (b) disguise her name just as you've done her appearance? Keeping in mind that your no 1 goal is not to let anyone even suspect that this handmaiden is in fact the queen. In terms of addressing her, which is the safer more prudent decision if you're say Panaka, head of security?

 

It's in the film, Vader had given orders to deactivate the hyperdrive which must have happened even before our hero's escape (Vader was busy with Luke). Smart as he was, he was obviously considering the possibility that Lando might escape with his former ship, and to prevent him from using any other ship he made it look as if the Falcon was still fully spaceworthy (you'd only find out about the hyperdrive once you're in space).

 

Right, and as for already having Leia & Co. in custody, Vader was fully aware of their previously demonstrated abilities when it comes to escaping Imperial traps. Best to plan ahead for what happens and where they go next when they inevitably make a break for it. (Vader's plan and the way the plot plays out doesn't really stand up to close scrutiny IMO, let alone the kind of microscopic analysis that we subject it to, but it's good enough to not break my suspension of disbelief.)

 

No, my point is that simple name changes and putting on a pair of glasses are inherently bad ideas, but they work because of how inane they are. They work when they shouldn't logically work.

Obi-wan, like Ahsoka, kept part of their names or their whole name because that was who they chose to be. For Obi-wan, he chose to keep his last name because it was most likely not a unique name and thus allowed him to easily blend in. Ahsoka had bounced around for a while before meeting up with Bail and joining the Alliance, with the only change being that she used a code name for holonet transmissions. Not unlike the Sith. Caleb Dume changed his name to Kanan Jarrus because even though he was in hiding, he was working jobs that put him in a partial spotlight. This is different from Obi-wan who spent his time living alone as a hermit and even continuing to wear his Jedi robes, whereas Kanan changed clothes, but kept his Lightsaber on him, but in separate pieces.

Perhaps the Lars chose to leave Luke's name alone, as it was their decision and not Obi-wan's. And as to Luke leaving, well, Owen kept looking for excuses to keep Luke on Tatooine and not going to the Academy. Remember, the Starkiller name was known among the Sith and the Empire in the earlier drafts, despite being hidden on the desert planet.

The novelizations and all the behind the scenes reference books. Not to mention that Palpatine only calls her Queen Amidala in the Senate and Nute never suspects that Sabe is not Padme, when he's talking to her.

That's why Sabe was chosen to be the decoy, since she looked like Padme.

The practice dated back many long years and had worked out well. That's why Padme uses her real name as the decoy and is only addressed by her royal moniker, while dressed up as the Queen.

 

As far as decoys go, I thought that was the entire point — hire one that looks exactly like you. If Sabé didn’t look like Padmé, then that would ruin any chance of fooling the enemy. All they’d have to do is go, “Here is a picture of Padmé, now go kill her and her clearly-not-a-young-brunette-woman bodyguard!”

 

They don't "work". They're used in some of the more fantastical fictional stories for convenience.

You think part of that was due to him still having the Skywalker name?? Clearly Obi-Wan thought that the baby was, & always would be in grave danger. He was hidden from the Emperor for one reason: he was Anakin's offspring. That's what he told us in RotJ. The one & only obvious identifying feature you would not want to bestow on the child is Anakin's name. Change that & Luke's just some anonymous kid in the Outer Rim. It's already risky that they're hiding Luke on Vader's home planet. In a house that he's aware of & once visited. On top of that to also call the child Skywalker!? That's ridiculous. Pls don't tell me that way back at the end of RotS Obi-Wan "knew" that Vader nor any other Imperials would ever investigate Tatooine. He can't possibly make that assumption. If he could he should've tried to contact other Jedi & have a group of them hiding out on that safe haven. It's dumb, & no spin or excuses can change that. However, since it was established before the first SW movie was even released we should give it a lot more slack than similar problems in later episodes.

Are you serious with this? The Queen would be one of, if not the most famous person on the planet. Her first name would have to be known by people, including her enemies. The point is, her people don't know who knows her full name.
Also, what does it matter how she's addressed. That's just etiquette. President Obama was never called Barack during any official duties. It's too familiar & inappropriate for someone of that sort of position. Now imagine a decoy was used for the President. For some crazy reason, the actual Obama was also present in the entourage, as one of the security officers. Standing next to the decoy President, dressed in a black suit with sunglasses & an earpiece. Obviously the risk is that he looks just like the President. So it's a dangerous situation. Do you exponentially add to that risk by openly calling him "Barack" or do you use an ounce of intelligence & call him Bob?

A genuinely absurd sentence. As if only publicly addressing a monarch or president by their last name, which is common, somehow makes their first name into some carefully guarded secret that no one knows. So of course you openly call the real queen - in disguise - by her real name.
If you're saying it's a long standing tradition to disguise the queen & then call her by her name then the Naboo really are the buffoons of the galaxy. Knowledge of that custom would leak out. To identify a decoy you need only wait for these idiots to name her. Then again we are talking about a society who willingly elect teenage girls to run their planet. If you're saying this all comes back to the Naboo being morons then maybe you're onto something. It's probably an argument that would stand up quite well.

Yes. Obviously. The point is that bcs that is a necessity, as you say, the risk to the real queen is even greater. Bcs just as the decoy looks just like the queen, the real queen looks just like the decoy. So they need to tread carefully to avoid their secret being exposed. Openly calling the disguised queen by her name is the height of stupidity.

 

Nice, & that reminds me. If anyone ever gets frustrated with our debates, just remember there's a website & forums that are even sillier than ours

https://www.tfes.org/

Well he wouldn't care that Lando escaped. He placed no restrictions on his movements. You mean he thought Lando might bust Leia out? & if so he might get away on the Falcon? Would Vader have also disabled the hyperdrives on Lando's own ships, & those of the Cloud City Mining Co? After all he's not going to know which ship Lando might choose. Wouldn't Vader just trust all of his own troops + Boba Fett to deliver Leia & one bound Wookiee to his ship? Let's remember, Vader had to allow Leia & Han to escape the Death Star. He's not doing that this time. Is he?

 

Given Lando's history with the Falcon I'd say there was a high probability Calrissian would have used his old ship. Alternatively, for all I know, Vader could have deactivated the hyperdrive on Lando's personal vessel (assuming he had one), too.

The way I see it Vader wanted to make sure that Lando would have stayed as Cloud City's general manager, working for the Empire, then, of course. And what better way to create the illusion that escape might be possible, but ultimately it's Vader who gets to have the last laugh.

 

Hence why they work. Doesn't matter how fantastical the fiction is, the point is that it works as a narrative.

Obi-wan and Yoda believed that Luke would be safe on Tatooine, since there is nothing there that would bring Vader back home. They both trusted in the Force with this and Obi-wan stayed to watch Luke, as a precaution since Tatooine was more dangerous than Alderaan. More so, Luke doesn't garner a reputation on Tatooine like his father did. He was known to his friends, but he seldom went to Mos Eisley and didn't become a Podracer or a Swoop Bike racer. The only danger that Luke had to face outside of the locals, was going away to the Academy and having someone in the Empire take a look at his name.

She had no enemies. She was recently elected as the Queen and would prove so popular that she was asked to stay on as Queen, when her two terms expired. No, the people knew. The Federation didn't. And as we see, this is true since Nute never addresses any handmaiden and he never hears her real name.

That's why no one does in her entourage while on Naboo. On Tatooine and Coruscant, where things are different, she's called Padme. Nute and Rune only address her as Queen Amidala and not Queen Padme Amidala. And that's because they don't know her real name and that she's already switched places.

As soon as the monarch is elected, they take on a separate name that they're addressed as. Amidala only becomes Padme's official last name after she has left office and became a senator. Amidala is just a stage name, one that no one utters in front of Nute and Rune.

Which is why only three people call her Padme in TPM and she uses her name only when introducing herself to Anakin and Jar Jar. Hell, when she addresses Boss Nass, she only uses "Queen Amidala" and not "Queen Padme Amidala".

 

How would Vader know of Lando's history with the Falcon? How does it make sense for him to disable it in case Lando of all people took it? It's very hard to make sense of this. Vader had Leia & Han dead to rights. Captured & at his mercy. He had no reason to care about the Falcon. If I wanted to really reach for an explanation it would be this. Vader knew he'd be confronting Luke. He also knew that he couldn't risk Luke being killed or escaping. Maybe he thought that if Luke evaded him in their encounter he could make it to either his X-Wing or the Falcon. If Vader disabled the hyperdrives on both he'd easily be able to intercept Luke & tractor him on board unharmed. So it was a way of making absolutely sure that Luke had no way out of the Bespin system. To me that's as good an explanation as any, though it's still not great.

Preposterous. The whole Empire will be on the lookout for every Jedi in hiding. No matter which corner of the galaxy they're in. They call it the Jedi Purge. Why would one particular Outer Rim world be completely excluded from the Empire's list of places to look? Should all of the surviving Jedi have gathered on Tatooine since it's impossible for one to be found there?

All irrelevant. No point talking about what happens years later. We're evaluating Obi-Wan's decision RE his & Luke's name right at the start. When he arrives on Tatooine. From that point anything could've happened. Perhaps an Imperial agent is on the planet one day. He hears of someone called Kenobi, or a kid named Skywalker. He Googles their names on the Holonet & sure enough they sound like interesting leads. So he calls it in to an Inquisitor or some Imperial officer. Or maybe Jabba suspects something is up with this mysterious Kenobi fellow. So he trades that info to his Imperial contacts. Bounty hunters were also probably used during the Purge. There are plenty of those traveling in & out of Mos Eisley/Espa & Jabba's palace. 500 other things could've happened. Let's not pretend the entire Purge was just Vader cruising around the galaxy personally targeting all of the Jedi. Without any doubt, the Jedi & those at risk would not go by their real names during those dark times.

Your source that proves the TF did not know any personal details & history regarding the Queen of Naboo who they were about to deal with on this vital matter?

The flimsiest example of evidence I've seen. It doesn't even qualify as evidence. It's an anecdote.

Panaka only ever calls her Queen Amidala too. Same with Palpatine. Is that proof that they don't know her name is Padme? Or is that simply the way she is addressed by everyone? Just like Chancellor Valorum. Master Windu. Even Viceroy Gunray himself. You didn't hear Sidious call him Nute did you? No one called Senator Palpatine Sheev. You're desperately clutching at straws here. This isn't proof of anything. Therefore it doesn't mitigate the need to keep her identity a secret when she's in her secret disguise.

But they're not like Jason Bourne. They don't have a super secret past & a hidden identity. There's nothing to suggest that the Queen's name is hidden information. Therefore it can't be assumed that it's safe to out her while she's playing handmaiden. The whole point of the handmaiden disguise has to be that there is significant danger. Enough to go to those lengths in the first place. Then they're so stupidly careless to call her Padme!?

If you accept it's a silly fantasy plot device that's not supposed to be analysed. Same thing with openly calling your disguised queen by her real name. The problem is when people try to argue that those types of things actually do make sense IRL. If you just say "It's fantasy, real life standards don't apply" then that would be fine. Instead you try to pretend these things stand up to genuine scrutiny. No one will ever buy that bcs it's BS. Defending them in a serious manner only leads to drawn out debates.

 

Regarding Vader and the Falcon: he would probably have known they came in with the Falcon so logic would tell him to disable any chance of the Falcon to make a quick getaway should the trio be lucky to get back to the ship.

As far as the monarchy — Padmé’s name aside, the whole thing’s silly borderline stupid. A monarchy isn’t elected. It’s usually hereditary, at least based off my (albeit limited) understanding of how monarchies work. Now if Padmé were the Chancellor/Prime Minister/President/Grand Vizier of Naboo, that’d be different.

Even if Naboo were under a constitutional monarchy with a working government that does the day-to-day duties and the monarchy is just there to be a pretty face and a symbol to rally around... Padmé would still not be elected to be queen. She would have to be that way via virtue of birth.

 

True, but Lando apparently had it fixed. Otherwise Vader wouldn't have needed it deactivated. It's murky to consider the timing of Lando fixing it & then the Empire deactivating it. Yet not disabling the whole ship. And do they do this before they arrested Han etc or after? If it had more to do with a possible escape by Luke, to me that makes more sense.

Agreed. The crazy thing is, it's always been viewed as a problem to be managed when a country with a hereditary monarchy gets stuck with a child as its sovereign. They often appoint a Regent to rule until the kid grows up. No society in their right mind would willingly elect a 14 year old to that position. Ahead of every experienced wise adult person available.

If Queen Padme were just a ceremonial figurehead that would be fine. Just some quirky tradition. Yet she isn't. They have this teenager negotiating the security of the entire planet with a hostile militant group! Later they appoint an imbecile as their Galactic Senate Representative. Naboo are a laughing stock.

 

Good point, another good reason for Vader to have the Falcon's hyperdrive deactivated, for all he knew he couldn't exclude the possibility that Luke would have been capable of flying the Falcon.

Luke wanted to save his friends, but certainly he must have been aware that the optimal exit strategy would have been for all of them to leave with the Falcon (and him leaving his X-Wing behind).

As a matter of fact that could explain an apparent continuity error (why does Luke still have his old pilot helmet in ROJ - http://boards.theforce.net/threads/lukes-x-wing-pilot-helmet-continuity-error-in-rotj.50041197/ ), i.e. Luke first went to the Falcon, checked it out, left his helmet there and then went looking for his friends. After Luke had left, the Imperials deactivated the hyperdrive.

 

The Empire couldn't be everywhere, not even the Sith and the Inquisitors. Even if they the Empire had been to Tatooine, they don't have the time and resources to scour the whole planet to find any Jedi stragglers. Hell, they can't even find the Alliance. What could be done was to set up garrisons on worlds like Lothal, or to recruit others like Jabba to keep an eye out for Jedi. The Empire isn't even that efficient since they never find the Rebel base on their own accord and they couldn't even find Yoda on Dagobah and assume that Hoth is just filled with smugglers or pirates.

That's why Obi-wan keeps a low profile when going to Mos Eisley and lives by himself. Luke, meanwhile, is kept with the Lars and doesn't attract attention. If someone from the Empire shows up, then he deals with them.

The fact that Nute doesn't say anything about interrogating the handmaidens to see if one was a decoy or not. The fact that he never calls her Padme, nor is Padme's name uttered on Naboo in Act I. He even falls for the trick when Sabe appears while pretending to be the Queen.

It's still a fact in the film.

Panaka and Palpatine know, same with Valorum. And again you miss my point, only three people address her as Padme in TPM. Anakin, Jar Jar and the handmaiden in Padme's quarters. Her identity is as safe as can be. Nute never demonstrates that he knows otherwise. Much less that he's aware of any decoys being used until late in the film. When he sees the two of them, he can't even tell the difference other than one is dressed up and he says, "This is a decoy, go after her."

Three people on a world where the Federation are not at. That's what you keep missing.

The fact that you feel the need to argue it in the first place, shows that you're just as guilty as I am. All "Star Wars" is silly fantasy films with silly fantasy devices, like the Force or a hood covering one's eyes, hiding your identity. The point is that the Queen is named as Amidala and her handmaiden disguise is Padme Naberrie, tells us that her name wasn't widely known outside of the Naboo.

Yeah, on Earth. Outer space worlds are a different story.

 

In outer space things are different?

Of course. If you want to successfully build a world that the audience understands, include a senate and a chancellor in the elected body that governs the galaxy, just like the democracies we recognise on earth that use the exact same or equivalent terms.... but then include a monarch in a way that's totally at odds with the meaning of that word and system of government as we know it on earth.

I guess we can use "outer space" to selectively excuse or reinterpret any apparent misnomer we like. Like when Anakin is told that he's selfish because he's affected by the loss of his mother. In outer space it's a differ story from earth where Anakin would not be considered selfish for feeling of loss.

 

@darth-sinister — So basically because it’s set in a sci-fi, we should excuse the fact that an entire planet’s worth of people decided that it was in their collective interests to elected a young teen girl to serve as their queen rather than, literally anyone else (hell, elect Bibbles in a pinch if you have to.) They decided that it was a good idea to appoint, as their representative on the Senate, a Gungan so clumsy he managed to somehow get himself banished from his own home?

I know it’s not set in our world, but some inner-logic should be applied. No one is gonna elect a child to be their queen and expect her to call all the shots. If she were some mere ceremonial figurehead, that’d be fine. As DownUnder said, it’s a ceremony from an old tradition. No, these people expected a teenaged girl to be their queen and rule with all the titles implied.

This, of course, is not to mention that they have a constitution! Again, my understanding of that system (which is a constitutional monarchy) is poor, but I believe it’s when you have a monarchy but they’re not in any actual power — they’re just there as a symbol, a beacon to rally around. The people who makes and enforces the law (i.e., a parliament) are the ones who run the country.

 

I don't see what the issue is with electing Padme. Sure, she's 14, but it's because of her that Naboo was eventually saved, so they obviously had a good reason for electing her.

As for having elected monarchies, we've had those here in the real world too.

 

^ We did? Since when? I always figured it was either absolute monarchs or constitutional monarchs.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elective_monarchy

 

This is the Star Wars Galaxy, not Earth, things are very different. They may have more technology than we do but the Star Wars galaxy wouldn't be a very nice place to live for most people. It looks like a pretty difficult existence. Their teenagers don't sit around making stupid YouTube videos where they eat dishwasher detergent or screw around with their cell phones all day. They're seemingly more intelligent/mature and grow up faster. They're humans but they're not us so we can't really judge their teenagers against ours.

Also, a constitution or constitutional monarchy are pretty general terms. A constitution is literally just a piece of paper that lays out the law, in America we tend to think of it as synonymous with our Constitution and democracy but you could have a constitution that lays out any political system. The Communist Party Of China has a constitution for instance. Similarly a constitutional monarchy would be any monarchy where a constitution has been written which lays out the monarch's powers and its limits, which it would generally share with some other body although how much would depend. A constitutional monarch could still have a lot of power depending on what is written in that constitution, for a while I guess Palpatine was technically a constitutional monarch (albeit one who held almost all the power ) until he dissolved the Senate. But as Mr. Darkspine pointed out Naboo is also an Elective Monarchy which is laid out in their constitution I suppose. Which would make it a combination of Elective and Constitutional Monarchies.