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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

ST Daisy Ridley (Rey) in the ST

Discussion in 'Sequel Trilogy' started by Darth_Voider, Dec 17, 2015.

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  1. AhsokaSolo

    AhsokaSolo Force Ghost star 7

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    Dec 23, 2015
    I'm just gonna take this one because it really really isn't hyperbole. It seems unusual to me in a typical master/apprentice movie relationship for the student to beat the master where the master is in a submissive position on the ground while the student stands over and challenges him/her. These relationships typically exist for the protagonist to learn a lesson, not the other way around. I'm not arguing against this being subversive and maybe that's the point of why RJ wanted to do it (personally I don't think subversion is the motive behind writing this outcome to this confrontation) but it did happen in the movie.

    In the fight, Rey charges Luke from behind and knocks him to the ground from behind. This is a cowardly move obviously lacking Jedi honor, the kind that should cause the student to get taught a big old lesson in humility. Instead, Luke gets up and challenges her in apparent anger, defends against her attacks arguably not trying to defeat her, but then is shown stumbling backward in surprise when she force pulled the saber and ignited it in his face. He didn't force pull it away from her or force push her back or do anything that could remotely be considered not being defeated. He stumbled and fell and lay on the ground while she made the same demands on him that she made at the start of the fight, only this time, defeated, he gave her what she wanted.

    Rey challenged Luke Skywalker and won. We can discuss the significance of it, but that is how the scene portrays it.
     
  2. DarthPhilosopher

    DarthPhilosopher Chosen One star 6

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    Jan 23, 2011
    Except Luke is shown to be holding back when 'duelling', wins, and then she pulls the lightsaber on him, he is shocked and cushions his fall with the Force. He's clearly able to absolutely obliterate Rey but rather than risking both of their lives, he submits.
     
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  3. AhsokaSolo

    AhsokaSolo Force Ghost star 7

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    Dec 23, 2015
    I granted that one could conclude he was really just defending while they dueled. It doesn't change the outcome.

    Who cares if he cushioned his fall with the force? You're saying he couldn't not submit without risking their lives? Some master. He should have been able to easily knock the lightsaber out of her hands or push her back. RJ chose to portray it as Luke Skywalker submitting to Rey in a clearly submissive position and giving her, the victor, what she wanted when she attacked him from behind.

    You can rationalize it and say Luke chose to do it, I guess, but it really doesn't matter. That's what happened. Rey learned nothing, other than attacking Luke Skywalker when his back is turned gets her what she wants.
     
  4. DarthPhilosopher

    DarthPhilosopher Chosen One star 6

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    Jan 23, 2011
    Luke's not really beaten though. He just knows that Rey pissed, he thinks rightly so, and he submits rather than risking an outcome with the lightsaber that could endanger both. He knows he doesn't have complete control over everything so he doesn't want to risk an unnecessary accident with the lightsaber.

    He surrendered because he doesn't choose to fight. He isn't beaten.
     
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  5. AhsokaSolo

    AhsokaSolo Force Ghost star 7

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    Dec 23, 2015
    The bolded is what matters. He submitted. That he chose to is irrelevant. Rey had the upper hand. She won. She got what she wanted. Luke lay on the ground in the rain, defeated, and submitted to her. He is beaten, especially if he couldn't do anything to defeat her without risking their lives.

    Moreover, Rey suffers nothing for this, which is the way it usually works for a victor of a confrontation. When a student pulls what Rey did on a master, like I said, typically they have a lesson to learn in humility. Rey is rewarded for what she did. Luke gives her what she wants, and she defiantly stomps off to do more stupid stuff and face zero consequences for it.
     
  6. Qui-Riv-Brid

    Qui-Riv-Brid Force Ghost star 5

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    Apr 18, 2013
    Which is an interpretation one can place on it but it's similar to some extent to Mace vs Sidious. Did Mace really beat Sidious? No but you can see why anyone would think that was the case. That Sidious really was feigning weakness and could have taken Mace out whenever he wanted to might have been the reality but not the perception.

    In this case Rey cowardly attacks Luke from behind and once again pulls from the dark side of the Force using anger and aggression.

    Is she sorry for what she did? No. She gets what she wants and the way it's played it's all fine. The only thing she doesn't get is Luke to train her but that is his weakness and nothing to do with her. That she has shown herself to be someone who is easily drawn to the dark (though with no effects) is not addressed.

    For one of the few times Rey actually does something that could have impact on her character but it passes without note and she reverts to type. Some arrogance that could add color to her is gone in the rain.
     
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2018
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  7. DarthPhilosopher

    DarthPhilosopher Chosen One star 6

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    Except if he wanted to he could have obliterated Rey. What matters is that he wasn't beaten by her power, but by his own surrender. Therefore the original point stands.
     
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  8. Qui-Riv-Brid

    Qui-Riv-Brid Force Ghost star 5

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    Apr 18, 2013
    Yet the lasting visual imagery doesn't support the actual story point being made very well.

    Rey summons the Lightsaber and gets it and Luke does nothing about it. Unlike when Rey tries that with Snoke and it doesn't work or when she takes Ren's and is easily stopped.

    You wouldn't have to do anything so drastic with Luke. She goes for the Lightsaber that was his once and Anakin's before that and it replies to it's real master, Luke not Rey. So while she can take it away from someone who thinks it should be his she can't take it away from it's rightful owner.

    As it is she is the master of that Lightsaber now and has the power and Luke submits to her.

    It's not about obliterating her but simply making the point that Luke is the Jedi Master and she has to learn.
     
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2018
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  9. DarthPhilosopher

    DarthPhilosopher Chosen One star 6

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    I think it's an important story point that Luke doesn't go for the lightsaber until the very end of the film. Either way he was caught off guard.

    The lightsabers rightful owner is they who will continue the Order. That's why he uses it at the end.
     
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2018
  10. AhsokaSolo

    AhsokaSolo Force Ghost star 7

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    Dec 23, 2015
    No it doesn't. Obliterating her isn't the point. Rey wasn't trying to obliterate him either. She wanted an answer and she beat it out of him. He submitted even by your description because he couldn't win without risk. That is still a defeat. The master should be able to swat a temper tantrum throwing student back, and that he couldn't is a loss.
     
  11. DarthPhilosopher

    DarthPhilosopher Chosen One star 6

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    The original point is that Rey doesn't win because she is more powerful, but because Luke is not willing to risk her life.
     
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  12. AhsokaSolo

    AhsokaSolo Force Ghost star 7

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    Dec 23, 2015
    The original point wasn't yours. You called it hyperbole when someone said Rey beat Luke, and it's not. She did beat him.
     
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  13. Qui-Riv-Brid

    Qui-Riv-Brid Force Ghost star 5

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    Apr 18, 2013
    Which is at least consistent in the movie that Luke turned into just about the worst Jedi Master ever outside of Dooku and others who became Sith or turned to the dark side in general.

    Luke couldn't be what Rey wants him to be or what Ben needed. He was a failure and remains one. He wasn't even very good at rescuing anyone since he never told them that was the plan and it only worked because of Rey. It's not like told Leia or communicated with Rey.

    I mean some simple Obi-Wan like thought communication with Rey would have worked. Any number of points added would have helped but the consistent message throughout was to obliterate Luke and glorify Rey when some very simple storytelling could have made each have far better and involved stories.
     
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2018
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  14. DarthPhilosopher

    DarthPhilosopher Chosen One star 6

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    Jan 23, 2011

    No the context was she beat him because she was more powerful. That was hyperbolic.
     
  15. AhsokaSolo

    AhsokaSolo Force Ghost star 7

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    Dec 23, 2015
    In context it doesn't say anything of the sort.

    It just says "beat Luke Skywalker," which she did. She didn't beat him in a battle to the death. She beat him in a duel for dominance between them where she got what she wanted and Luke lay on the ground in the rain and submitted.

    I agree that Rey, even as portrayed, is clearly not more powerful than Luke Skywalker. And yet, the movie had her beat him. That that happened in any context is noteworthy.
     
  16. DarthPhilosopher

    DarthPhilosopher Chosen One star 6

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    The context is that she beat him because of her power and skill.

    Reread the post I was quoting. The context is 'she has no flaws she did x, y and z'. She didn't beat Luke because of any skill. He purposefully lost and it had nothing to do with her power.
     
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2018
  17. Ender_and_Bean

    Ender_and_Bean Chosen One star 6

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    May 19, 2002
    Is this topic really back where it was how many pages back? Any notion that Rey didn’t suffer consequences or that she wasn’t sliding toward the Dark Side (as represented by Kylo Ren himself) is absurd. She’s clearly on a Dark Side slide more and more as she spends time with Kylo Ren. There are hints all over and it weakens her ability to kill him by the end. That’s a huge concequence for her.

    Luke Skywalker never once set out to attack her. He disarmed her easily. She escalated it to attempted murder. She gave up on the hero who was actually teaching her and was corrupted dangerously close to the appeal of the Dark Side through Ben Solo. Luke Skywalker could have been alive potentially if she never left. Leia sent her there with these resources to bring Luke back. Not to help her son become Supreme Leader. That’s one consequence of that choice. Something she may struggle with in IX once she truly realizes it or speaks with Luke as a Force Ghost again. I suspect both will have regrets about how things were when they first started out and may share that to build a better relationship in IX.

    She was tortured by Snoke. Presented for execution and stabbed in the shoulder. Her heart was broken. She was disappointed that things didn’t go as she imagined. How some people think she had no setbacks or doesn’t head into IX with any regrets or her confidence shaken I’ll never understand.

    She could have killed the new Supreme Leader who she helped put on the throne but couldn’t do it. She’s been weakened as a hero by him. She may not have the resolve to kill him. That’s what we wonder now. She helped a guy she cares about move even further down the Dark Side with her actions and he is now heart broken, angry and knows what’s most important to her and may be able to use that against her and hurt more people she cares about. That’s what she will now have to deal with coming up.

    This is only the second act of the trilogy. There’s tons of drama ahead. There will be a lot more people than just twenty heroes fighting by the end as well. I would put money on that bet too.
     
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2018
  18. Star war

    Star war Jedi Knight star 3

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    Jan 23, 2018
    Oh and lets not forget about why she attacked Luke in the first place, for "Ben" who is Luke's nephew and Luke knew more about him than Rey.

    That whole scene was a mess. They portrayed Rey as being right always.
    And Luke as wrong, ashamed and a coward who lied to save his skin, the first time he told his story.
     
  19. Ender_and_Bean

    Ender_and_Bean Chosen One star 6

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    Luke didn’t lie the first time he told his story. He summarized too briefly and didn’t include enough info. What he said was true... from a certain point of view.

    “I went to confront him and he turned on me” is what happened.

    Luke just conveniently left out the specifics of “how he confronted him” because it was hard for him to revisit and he wanted to block it out.

    It’s not like he says “I usually carried my saber with me but made a careful point not to that day and just wanted to talk to him” or something like that. That would have been a lie.

    Oversimplifying how he confronted him is omission of detail. It’s not a lie.

    Consider Obi-Wan’s ommison of detail to Luke initially (He was your father. I fought him and left him dying near lava). He obviously omitted far more than that and used the words “betrayed and murdered” which feel a lot more actual lies from a certain point of view. Along with “He wanted you to have this” (instead of I just picked this up when I left him to die).

    Luke’s ommison of detail and ridiculously concise summary of that night initially shared some similarities but no lies.
     
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2018
  20. Darth Smurf

    Darth Smurf Small, but Lethal star 6

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    Dec 22, 2015
    Yes, except Luke using the force while falling down
     
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  21. oncafar

    oncafar Force Ghost star 6

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    Jan 10, 2017
    Rey didn't attempt to murder Luke. Though it is ironic how she's upset at him regarding his impulse of igniting his lightsaber over sleeping Ben and actually draws and ignites a lightsaber against Luke when he's in a defenseless position. I don't know if she put 2 & 2 together there.

    Though Luke is not truly defenseless.
     
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2018
  22. DarthTalonx

    DarthTalonx Jedi Master star 4

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    Nov 12, 2014
    But from what I see and read (literally someone else posted it here on this thread or the Snoke thread), George Lucas had the main villain/dark sider being related to the PT/OT. Not just random baddie. And as for the main two younger stars (in this case they became Ren and Rey), they were to be Vader's grandchildren (with different names). One Luke's offspring, and the other the son of Han and Leia.

    I also think simply from watching the OT and ST, we would have no doubt had Lucas giving us an idea of what happened in between ROTJ and TFA (or whatever Episode VII's title was going to be), versus Abrams skipping all that as if it's irrelevant. I was just as excited as anyone else when they announced they would be doing 9 films in total (a further 3). But somewhat dejected after the good feeling of the cinema wore off. I wondered about the story. Certainly the Starkiller firing scene, I wasn't a fan of, as I didn't feel a connection to the planet at all.

    I liked the opening etc, it was so epic in TFA. But I feel that Rey being given such a central role, surely then would have to be Lucas' version that she's Luke's daughter and was hidden. It felt like Abrams seeded that in (I feel like HIS film was the one that needed the most flashbacks). I believe several occasions Hamil has said this wasn't Lucas' version or idea of how Star Wars was to go onward.

    This seems more KK's vision (if you can still use that word). Not actually about continuing the story in a logical manner or furthering the saga.

    How did she win though? There wasn't much "Training" either versus Luke and Yoda. Or the padawans and Yoda in the PT. In fact, it seemed Rey just arrived on the island as the most powerful person in the galaxy and left the island as... the most powerful person in the galaxy.


    Have you ever piloted a starship or rocket? Go and do it for the first time and see if you can outfly a trained pilot. Ever used the Force? Go and take on a fully trained apprentice and see how that battle goes. Ever met the most powerful surviving Jedi Master? Ever decided to best him with a stick despite him being far more skilled in lightsaber combat? Ever spoken Wookie (a species not apparently common on Jakku and a language not widely understood)?

    Palpatine has way more explanation in the OT than Snoke who has none at all. And you still haven't grasped the basic principle that the ST is meant to CONTINUE the story. The OT/PT didn't have to continue a former story. And the rest of the saga gave enough exposition for things to logically make sense PURELY from on screen details.

    The ST cannot just undo what came before it, or establish random bad guys, because it has a saga before it, which it is meant to FIT into. If you want to do a story outside of the saga, then do anthology films. Rogue One worked well. We'll see what they do with Solo. But the main saga is meant to be one and flow.

    Your point on Rey not being related is crazy. Yoda wasn't a Skywalker nor the central character/protganist in the saga. Rey clearly is shown to be a central figure supposedly. Thus she has to be a Skywalker, or should be relegated to a side/secondary character which she isn't in this case.

    Rey is probably at this point more powerful than even Obi Wan in the mind trick and will use the Force to mind trick Finn and others into loving her lol. I almost felt like Ren should have said "Stop looking at me like that." and Rey saying, "Why not?" for Ren to reply, "It makes me uncomfortable."

    I felt like Rose's sister was someone who would have been an awesome character. For some reason I felt more of a connection to her despite her being in the movie for a matter of minutes, than I do with Rey. Unless they make Rey a Skywalker, she feels a bit bland.

    Most of what you say is based on assumption and not shown on screen unlike the rest of the saga's films. You can't have a central character not being a Skywalker. The film essentially follows Rey (TFA and TLJ). So in a saga about that family, she would have to be part of that family. It's hard to feel a connection to her. More connection felt with the heroic sister (Rose's sister) despite less screen time. More connection with Padme, Leia etc. Rey should have been done much better and I hope they will resolve this in Episode IX with her heritage. But that means they have squandered a character for 2 precious episodes.

    The only explanation at this point would be the heritage. You can't have a character be that awesome and expect her to be relatable. Jyn Erso is a woman, but far more relatable and likeable frankly. She was a hero. With Rey, unlike Luke, Rey can do everything from day 1. And do everything by the end of day 1.

    Or else they will realise their folly (twice the pride double the fall) and correct this in Episode IX, and this was a "misdirection" lol.

    I agree, it seemed seeded that she was Luke's daughter and hidden for protection. Part of the problem is no galactic exposition (unlike in both the OT and PT) and no explanation/flashbacks in TFA (and not enough in TLJ) to explain what happened in between ROTJ and TFA.

    They have spent two films achieving very little exposition and not really creating a solid story arc in the sequels.

    Agreed. Although Rey turning dark actually would have been interesting.

    Trouble is introducing another new character now shows that this hasn't been planned out. I don't think this is what Lucas intended or left them with in his scripts. I believe his outline was for Rey to be Luke's daughter and hidden/central character. And Ren to be the same, but seduced to the dark. And the dark sider to be someone still left unfinished/unbeaten from the rest of the saga who was behind the scenes. (Not a random baddie like Snoke).

    Showing a flashback of the Temple and maybe a few Jedi surviving (including Rey, Luke's daughter, maybe Poe to explain his skills etc, Rose/her sister etc), and hidden for protection would have been interesting. We still haven't seen the Knights of Ren either.

    I just feel like we needed Lucas' style of story arc and story telling. Surely they should have just produced his scripts?!

    You haven't negated anything nor given any explanation based on what we are shown on screen. Following a movie blindly doesn't make it a great movie. I loved the movie, but am saying the sequels could be so much better. And it turns out they didn't use George Lucas' scripts which I don't doubt would have been more coherent and flowed as part of one saga.
     
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2018
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  23. oncafar

    oncafar Force Ghost star 6

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    Jan 10, 2017
    Where is this? I've also seen the claim that Rey and Ren were always unrelated it's just that they switched which one was related to the Skywalkers. People have also speculated that Rey and Finn were originally Solos and Ren always unrelated. I've seen a lot of speculation but never any sources.

    This was discussed over and over in the Rey parentage thread and I don't remember anyone really providing much in the way of sources--but there was a LOT of speculation.

    Also I would mention that I don't think changing which character is related is necessarily devastating to whatever GL's ideas were. It's more a matter of if he thinks it is. It could be that the overall story and meaning of it was more important than which character(s) in particular is/are related to the Skywalkers.

    Again, where is the source where we know that's what GL was going to do? Where is there anything but speculation?

    More speculation. Does MH ever say what specifically he means by that? Anywhere?
     
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2018
  24. DarthTalonx

    DarthTalonx Jedi Master star 4

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    Nov 12, 2014
    I think Finn was to be a secondary character like Han Solo. Not necessarily a Stormtrooper. The sequels were to show the fall of the new Temple apparently.

    I do think the female lead was to be Luke's daughter and the fallen Skywalker, Han and Leia's child who was turned to the dark.

    That's what I'm saying! THE STORY is most important, but the new writers appear to have taken Lucas' scripts, and instead of following the gist of the story, they wanted their own characters in it, and wrote a haphazard story around those instead. And then didn't have a cohesive flowing plan to have one story arc for the sequels. Or show enough exposition to link this to the OT and PT and form one saga.

    You got to admit that Lucas' had some incredible arcs, and an overall overarching story space opera around the Skywalkers right? That little magic touch to connect it all is missing somewhat. But that is what makes Star Wars so much better than any other franchise out there and so universally loved/respected. It's sad that they seem to (under KK's direction) doing some unknown "make it up as we go along" and not truly giving us the wonders and awe of the Force.
     
  25. oncafar

    oncafar Force Ghost star 6

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    Jan 10, 2017
    You don't provide any sources to back your claims. What arcs did GL have? It's like you are providing phantoms and saying that whatever GL was going to do was better and Rey should have been related. There are no facts.

    BTW, if you want an example of how this discussion always seems to go:


    Notice how everyone claims to have facts, no one provides sources, and they all contradict each other?

    *checking forum rules to see if posting Reddit stuff is against the rules*
     
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2018
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