ST Rey & Kylo Ren in Episode IX

Beautiful indeed!
She has the perfect combo to make him tumble upon his plans..
And she rejecting him, seems to me, will make him look up to her (as that last Falcon scene). She's not that easy dude, gotta give up something xD

 

A mass-murdering, tyrannical ruler......

 

Agreed on both Rey and Kylo experiencing the same feelings, especially being abandoned and being strong with the Force.

Rey turned to Kylo when Luke rejected her and Kylo was the only person besides Luke who has the Force. Snoke is such an idiot but no surprise here.

“Kylo Ren, I watched the Galactic Empire rise, and then fall. The gullible prattle on about the triumph of truth and justice, of individualism and free will. As if such things were solid and real instead of simple subjective judgments. The historians have it all wrong. It was neither poor strategy nor arrogance that brought down the Empire. You know too well what did.” Ren nodded once. “Sentiment.” “Yes. Such a simple thing. Such a foolish error of judgment. A momentary lapse in an otherwise exemplary life. Had Lord Vader not succumbed to emotion at the crucial moment—had the father killed the son—the Empire would have prevailed. And there would be no threat of Skywalker’s return today.”

Ironic that Snoke was the biggest Vader's and Palpatine's fanboy, not Kylo, but learnt nothing from their mistakes. Ironic that "the son killing the father" made Kylo actually more conflicted and Snoke's second demand, second sacrifice became his own end. Poetry.

 

Not sure about that.
Actually I do believe that she was born because, at 10 the darkness in Ben was reaching critical levels, so the Force created someone equal in the light to counterbalance. Giving her no strong bloodline so that she could remained isolated and undetected by Snoke (unlike Ben). Creating also the conditions (loneliness, abandonment issues) that gave her the ability to form a strong emotional bond with Ben, where family bonds obviously failed.

We know that Leia gave up trying herself to cope with Ben's darkness and sent him to train with Luke.
I know children feeling abandoned by their parents when they are sent to boarding schools against their will. Some (=please read "some" not "all") develop abandonment issues.

 

Yup i think that too.

They are paralleling Kylo and Anakin.
They both turned to the dark side at the age 23.

Destroyed the Jedi and Jedi temple, hell bent on killing their masters.

Even Kylo - Luke confrontation was similar to Anakin - Obi Wan confrontation.

Anakin was taken away from his mother at the age of 9-10 i think.

So may be Kylo was sent to Luke by Leia to train at they age of 9-10 too.

And thats when his darkness started growing.

Thats probably when Rey was born.
To meet Kylo's darkness.

It kinda fits with the whole darkness rises and light to meet it theme.

They are definitely going for a force soulmate type connection b/w Kylo and Rey.

So its really possible.

 

That's not what happened though. She had no part in bringing Snoke down except she was the figure that was occupying Snokes complete attention. He was going to kill her. however, right before Snoke mocked Kylo and that was the straw that broke the camels back. So Kylo took the opportunity to kill Snoke while he was fixated on Rey. Kylo didn't kill Snoke to save Rey, he killed Snoke to cease the power. once Snoke died his "force grip" on Rey released and she was saved. They weren't in the elevator hatching out this elaborate plan to oust Snoke. She actually figured out in that elevator that Kylo doesn't give two craps about her. She is trying to help him and he brings her parents up and she immediately backed away. She knew at that point she was in trouble. then she tried again to save Kylo by tossing him her saber and once again Kylo chose the power and threw her parents back in her face or told her she is worthless and has no place in this story. I don't understand how people think Kylo cares about Rey. Kylo even vows to Luke to destroy her, the resistance, all of it.

 

I don't blame you.
Time and again I have the strong feeling that we discuss two different movies with the same title.

 

By Rian Johnson's own admission, the Force bond was a plot device to get Rey and Kylo talking and to further their relationship from purely antagonistic to something more complicated. Which now, it is.
Kylo was able to kill Snoke because he saw a future with Rey and that was what motivated him. He gave everything he had up to the dark side, but he was not willing to kill Rey for it. Rey in turn saw Ben's future on the light, presumably by her side. They genuinely bonded over their shared loneliness and feelings of betrayal by family and Kylo thought that Rey, like him, would also want to wallow in anger and self pity about the past and that's why he brings up her parents and wants her to join him. But Rey is trying to move on where Kylo Ren still hasn't.
I do believe there were genuine feelings between them and Rian, Daisy and Adam have spoken about this so I don’t know if its even up for debate at this point. Kylo Ren is still immersed in the dark side, yes, but that's because there's still one more movie left for his character to develop. I'm glad he didn't go with Rey just because she wanted him to, because his story will be about saving himself...and the fact that Rey went to help him shows that she cares enough about him too and in the end understands that she can't be the one to save him and leaves.
And their last scene together where Kylo Ren, with tears running down his face looks up at her, clutching his fathers dice in a desperate attempt to hold on to his connection with her, I saw regret in his face.
What was the point of setting up this kind of development between them in the first place if it wasn't supposed to mean anything in the end? If Rey and Kylo are just suppposed to end up feeling the same way about each other at the end of TLJ as they did at the end of TFA, what was the point of all those intimate, pivotal scenes if they were meant to be enemies forever?

 

Okay let me give you a few examples of what I mean.

"Help me Obi Wan Kenobi, you're my only hope." or "Can someone move this walk carpet bag out of my way."
"Strike me down and I will be far stronger then you can possibly imagine."
"Either I'm starting to like her or I'm going to kill her."

"This is Inconceivable."
"Hello My name is indigo Montoya. You killed my father. Prepare to die."
"As you wish." and "NO, to the pain. *goes on to discribe all the body parts that are lopped off, including feet, hands, nose, mouth, eyes, etc.* But not the ears. You're ears will stay in tact so that you'll hear every child that screams, every woman and man that sees you and says 'dear god what is that thing' with those perfect untouched ears."

"Snake, I hate snakes."

Each of these lines are lines that stick with the characters and are heavily associated with them, and help give a quick idea for a person who isn't as invested as the rest of us who the character is. Leia's line shows that she's an hopeful person who is someone that knows how to ask for assistance, and is fully diplomatic. The second line shows she has spunk and is willing to push forward and speak her mind. In two lines I can paint a picture of the character from her own words, and via Marketing, I now have a line that people will associate with the character and can be used to sell merch based on them.

A phrase, or catch phrase, in some cases, is used as a means of allowing the character to have iconic scope to people who are outside of the main fan community. Visually Ben stands out with the helmet, which is why a good portion of the art that depicts him, has him in that helmet that Adam so hates. But it's an arresting thing. However, vocally, he hasn't yet uttered something that really can be seen as something that will resonate over a long period of time. Nor, in a lot of ways, has Rey yet. Poe and Finn have more then a few that can be used, but Rey and Ben still haven't had that moment yet.

You can tell a lot about a character from their dialogue. The "I'm being torn apart" feels more like something you'd see in a Tennasee Williams play, or, worse still, that very line has connections to the Room which, when I hear it, I want to add Lisa. Which is all sorts of wrong. I shouldn't be equating a line like that to another film. Also, even as others discribe him, that's not a line about himself that's how others see him, and that's sort of the issue here.

Again, from a marketing standpoint, over the course of years, you want your character to have something that can be a line that people keep using and equate to a moment in the movie. Hakuna Matata, Spoon full of Sugar, Heeere's Johnny, etc. These are all lines that people can easily spot, know the movie they are from and go, I want that item because of X. Rogue One managed this with "I am one with the Force and the force is one with me." which is a very strong message and easy to connect to the ideas of that movie. You hear that line and you think of Chiru. You think of the characters, you connect it to Star Wars and the RO story.

Yeah, because "Rebels" is a TV-show. Let's compare Kylo to Maul from the movies. Who is standing out?[/QUOTE]

Okay so we want to go about Movies and standing out. Fine, let's compare tit for tat with Maul. Maul has an iconic look. Managed in one movie to stand out as a ruthless hunter who follows the Sith code and does as requested. He doesn't question his master and believes in their goals whole heartedly. He's willing to go up against, not one, but two jedi and manages to take out one of them.

Ben, so far, has yet to score a single hit on Rey, got hit by Finn, and lost the droid with the map that they needed. Did not get the map and got his ass handed to him. He later manages to kill his boss, but the question is is the guy dead or was it all part of his plan (I think it was). Instead of talking to his Uncle about issues, he seems to allow himself to be manipulated to the point where he's manipulating someone else, and than, rather then owning that he killed Snoke and did so willingly to assert his right as the Supreme leader, he lies and says that it was Rey.

You see the issue here. Ben, if we're to believe is a villain worthy of taking over the iconic role of being the man in black, has yet to show any actual growth as a character from his first appearance.

You also have the larger issue of characters like Thrawn being a far more interesting villain, who's just as sympathic, maybe even more so, who's cunning and interesting and notable because he doesn't just use random acts of violence to get what he wants. Not only that but he's cleaver learning what he can from the art of others, and making him a worthy opponent to the cast to deal with, and he's won.

That's not even to mention Tarkin, or someone like Sidious, or even Anakin himself. Villains in Star Wars need to be characters we can show sympathy for, sure. But also characters we can dislike and feel the need for the hero to beat, even if they're not uber evil. Ben so far hasn't even touched that yet. His actions are more akin to a college age kid getting pissed off over being away from home, rather then, you know a trained jedi that fell and is able to use the darkside of the force in a way to best his opponents.

 

@Darkspellmaster

"“Forgive me. I feel it again. The pull to the light" or
"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to" or
"I know what I have to do"

...One more movie to go. There may be others.
But I think that with Kylo they did something different. There may be no real spoken line that defines him, but definitely face and body language. That huge energy inside that he hardly keeps under control --you hear it in his voice sometimes. That's what defines him, I'd say.
He doesn't strike me as the talkative fellow like his father, his mother, or even Luke.
He's kinda physical. Adam Driver said that himself in an interview, if I remember correctly

 

Tell me about it.
But I feel confident with my own interpretation of the text after getting so much validation from the creators.

 

You made me reflecting one more thing, since I follow what you are saying and believe that you are right.
The fact is that Ben / Kylo is not really a villain. Not credible because not fully formed yet. At the beginning of TLJ he's still a child in a mask, in fact, as you suggest. And he's been created with this intent, it is not poor writing or acting. He's meant to be this way I think.

He's quite messed up. To be the fully villain, he needs to go where he doesn't want to (kill his mother, kill Rey). And he knows it.
He's tragic, honestly.
Not villain, not quite the hero but not even the anti-hero.
We'll have to wait the full-cycle to make any sense of him, I think.

 

Because you chose to end the story with Kylo throwing another tantrum and take it for granted. I didn't quote the rest of your post because it's a variation of the standard "Kylo doesn't give a crap about Rey cause he tossed her into the tree/strapped her to the torture chair/said she was nothing, that proved completely futile and baseless after 2 years of circular repetition. And will prove futile and baseless after 2 more years cause that's not the story they are telling.

Kylo threw a tantrum just like Luke wanted him, with one big difference - by projecting himself instead of confronting him in person, Luke allowed Kylo to act out his anger without hurting anyone. So Kylo was able to strike Luke in anger without killing him and therefore:

a) he didn't kill another family member

b) he won't be torn apart with regret once he calms down and reflects on what he's done

That shows that Luke still cares for his nephew and that he learned from his previous failure. In this case, he showed Ben that:

a) he didn't come to kill him

b) he didn't want to make him suffer for killing his uncle like he now suffers for killing his father

c) Luke is the greatest Jedi cause he used his power for defense (of the Resistance and his nephew from himself since Kylo is Ben's worst enemy) and knowledge (to teach his nephew a lesson). Yoda in ESB said:"A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense, never attack". So while the rule was broken a plenty in the Saga, Luke followed through in TLJ.

Now, one can say "oh poo-pooh, Kylo's intent or threat is as bad as finishing the job". Actually no. Intent or threat without a deed that cannot be taken back (such as killing Han) opens the door for not following through once a person robbed of fishing the job calms down and thinks about it. Which appears to be what happened to Kylo in the very last scene. He's broken as if his victory is hollow. All things he cares for - Rey and his family symbolically presented as Han's dice - are lost to him at the moment. This is the second movie out of three so there's still mileage to go including how he won them back. After all, ST is his family Saga so it's about him too. Very much so. His and Rey story is the central story.

In story-telling, robbing of an unjust triumph is used to teach the person a lesson in humility and make them reflect on whether the power is really what they want. It's Saving Them By Defeating Them principle. It's not about revenge but healing. Luke killing Kylo would be revenge. Luke allowing Kylo to act out his anger (strike, make threats, yell the best NOOOO in the Saga) is giving him a chance to heal.

 

People are defending Luke's intent of killing Kylo while he was SLEEPING and forgave Luke in a heartbeat.

People will forgive Kylo too.

Bcoz at the end, he killed Snoke, saved Rey and didnt kill his mom either.

Besides Luke came back to face Kylo and apologize to him meaning Kylo was most important to him at the time.

Luke in a way "saved" Kylo.

And it was actually Kylo who achieved the most important and heroic task, he killed Snoke and saved our hero.

Snoke played with Rey like a ragdoll, she was no match for him.

But Kylo killed him, that was a heroic moment and people saw it that way.

 

Yes, this. Killing Snoke is heroic and right now it's the most heroic thing in ST and one of the most heroic things in SW. It's an iconic bad guy kill. And it was done to save our heroine. So while TFA was bent on showing that Rey didn't need saving (she was saving others multiple times), she was allowed to be more vulnerable in TLJ and have Ben step in without taking away her agency. She saved Ben when she tossed him the lightsaber at the end of the fight, so they are even. I like the fact that they are vulnerable around each other and know each other much more intimately and deeply than other people know them.

But back to heroism. Neither Rey nor Kylo was a match for Snoke so Kylo had to defeat Snoke by taking advantage of Snoke's lowered guard and over-confidence since he didn't expect to be defeated/betrayed. It was also use of the Force in defense rather than attack, which is a Jedi thing.

I guess that, because Kylo was heroic in TLJ, some people who don't like him have to double down on giving everything a negative spin to vilify him since the movie didn't. :shrug:

 

Sometimes with these complaints re. Kylo - it's like we're watching two different movies because it's not the story they're telling.

 

Fans who read the movie right go to the cinematic heaven. Fans who read the movie wrong go to The Sanctuary (Dissenters Unite).

 

I think this picture below and the whole PG fight just about sums up what a kickass team Rey and Kylo make. That slow motion turn, Rey holding onto Kylo's thigh for support and leaning on his back to get the leverage to kick a PG in the balls was the most epic part of the whole movie. And they were looking our for each other during the whole throne room scene, trading weapons etc...

Rian sure did a good job of giving us a taste of what these two can accomplish together.

 

He was able to out-wit Snoke using his intelligence, everything Snoke read was correct, it was just the target that he read wrong. He immediately took advantage of Snoke being distracted by Rey to come up with a plan to kill him. And I think he got the idea of spinning the lightsaber, that he saw Snoke put down on the table next to his throne, when his own lightsaber landed next to his feet and spun around a few times, he sort of immediately looked up at Snoke with a look on his face.

 

I really think that the union between Rey and Kylo is what killed Snoke. Kylo couldn't do this on his own, nor could he do it just any old time. It's kind of like how Vader couldn't just kill the Emperor at any time. It was because the Emperor was so focused on Luke that Vader had the opportunity. It was not an opportunity that was always there. It arose out of a very specific situation. It's similar in Rey's case except it's also that Rey and Kylo are strong together on the same side. This allowed Kylo to act with a strength he doesn't have alone.

 

@Mana Agreed and there's a bit of a visual Yin Yang in that image since their arms are intertwined so there's a spec of light on him (her arm) and spec of dark on her (his arm). I really love that they were holding onto each other for support against the common threat. It shows the power of balance since they were balancing each other physically and figuratively.

@oncafar Agreed and also Kylo killed Snoke calmly, not in anger. Rey always calms him. That's evident in TFA during the cliff scene and in ForceBond/ForceSkype scenes. usually, he's unstable but her presence calms him. reminds me of Anakin's line to Padme:"Stay. Your presence is soothing".

 

Kylo is highly emotional and he can't keep his focus when he's raging and often loses because of it, but when he's calm and calculating, it's a whole different story.

 

As for Kylo threatening to destroy/kill (I forget the actual quote right now), I took it no differently as my 14 year old screaming I hate you!!!!!!!1eleventy! It's full of fury and rage signifying not much more than hollow anger.

I completely agree with you @vaderito. If you look at Kylo's behavior before and after his encounter with Luke's projection, it as markedly different. Yes, Kylo had every intention of killing his uncle when he saw him. He was very much in vengeance mode.

I that final scene with him, Kylo is calmer and bordering on rational. He isn't just sparking rage at that time. And when he bends down to pick up the dice projection, he is, dare I say, introspective and contemplative. He doesn't spew venom at Rey like he did to Luke.

I think what Luke did was brilliant. He let Kylo unload years and years of anger and hurt on him . Yes, Luke did die as a result, but Kylo did not kill him. If you remember, Luke specifically went to Ahch-To "to die." But he had no sense of peace or purpose, so he just existed day to day on Ahch-To. With this act, he made peace with his sister. But more importantly he started the reconciliation process with his nephew. With that his death had a definite peace and purpose. He's square with the house, and he allowed Kylo to have an appropriate catharsis.

It seems that this catharsis was successful. Kylo didn't harm Leia or Rey. In fact the Force decided to bridge Kylo and Rey yet again, and by the time it did, the anger was gone so that hopefully the next time Kylo and Rey meet face to face, the need for blood and retribution will no longer be necessary and they can once again work toward the balance they had briefly attained in the throne room.

 

I don't see the reasoning behind the excuse making for Kylo that's going on here. "He's only saying he's going to murder her because he's mad she rejected him" sounds horrible and not at like any acceptable excuse or justification for that behavior.