ST Daisy Ridley (Rey) in the ST

I'm treating the scene as if Rey is the protagonist, but I definitely understand that that is where my error is.

I'm not teeth gnashing about Luke's character. That is you speaking for me, and I'll kindly request that you stop. I can speak for myself. I'm talking about Rey. I have said many times that I understand Luke's perspective in this scene.

I understand that official training is off the table, but Rey is still theoretically our young inexperienced protagonist and she should be learning lessons on her journey and growing. Here, yes per the plot she is angry with Luke and then she lashes out. I follow the story just fine. The point is, her behavior was wrong and arrogant but she never needed to realize that. Going forward, Rey has the knowledge that attacking a superior fighter when his back is turned is the correct course of action.

As I have said, I understand the story reason. I am talking about Rey's arc in the Rey thread. Rey should be taught a lesson here because that's typically the point of a hero's journey - to make mistakes and then to learn from them. Otherwise the whole thing is pointless.

 

“Should be learning lessons on her journey”

So you’re judging the scene on something other than what the scene’s purpose in the film is.

From the information Rey has at that point, there is nothing wrong with her actions whatsoever.

Let’s stay on what your point was about the scene before. This was when you were still talking about the scene’s dynamics. You said Luke should have pushed her onto her ass to teach her a lesson in humility.
Have you acknowledged that there is a very good reason that Luke didn’t do that, and why it would be inappropriate for that scene?

 

I’m discussing the scene in terms of its impact on our hero’s journey. Feel free to stop engaging with me if you have no interest in the discussion.

Wait wait, lol, so we’re in disagreement about whether it’s wrong to attack Luke when his back is turned and he’s walking away from her? Okay then, this is where it’s time to agree to disagree.

 

I have interest in the discussion; I simply think that it’s demonstrably wrong to view that scene as having an intent of being a portrayal of Rey’s personal development.

And yes. We are in disagreement. The dynamic between the two is so tense, and Luke’s behaviour so unreasonable, that he does not get to walk away from that discussion consequence free. Rey hits him with a stick, and if ever a good guy needed hitting with a stick, it’s Luke at that moment.

 

@AhsokaSolo

Her lashing out at Luke has nothing to do with her heroine's Journey. A character doesn't need to answer for every slight misstep that he or she has, or every display of immaturity he or she may show. Her particular character arc has never revolved around her controlling her anger like some of Luke's did. Rey's story has never been about 'Rey is angry now. What will she do? Will she give into the anger, or will she resist and find another way?' Rey's arc happens to revolve around acceptance of what is (and who she is), realizing that instead of waiting for heroes to save the day you should become the hero you want to see, and now is learning that while having compassion is important, it won't always save others from themselves (Kylo - at least at this point in the story.)

Sure. We've seen Rey toy with being angry a bit - SKB fight, here with Luke - but it's nothing that the films took time to particularly point out, because it doesn't have much to do with her arc.

 

Whenever she is in a stressful situation, Rey turns aggressive and angry. I saw it as a big part of her character in TFA, and TLJ just expanded on that.

* Charging at Finn on Jakku
* Various times on SKB
* Luke
* Kylo
* Snoke

Her attack on Luke was over the top, and I don’t know what she was thinking igniting a lightsaber. Luke should’ve stood his ground and waited to see what Rey would do. If there was the slightest intent to strike at him, he should’ve Force thrown her to the ground (or the saber out of her hand).

She’s no Jedi, and now she has no one to train her. Looks like the Jedi have ended.

 

What is her arc? That's the problem, there's nothing particularly compelling about her supposed "journey," especially since you have her just "get" stuff far faster than her predecessors. And you don't have to answer for everything, but you should have SOME kind of significant struggle along the way. Where's hers, and where's her big setback/defeat either? She hasn't had one, that's the problem.

JDN21 Except that this movie basically tells us that Rey doesn't need a teacher. Just reading some textbooks is good enough for her.

 

Luke didn’t seem to think so, since he knew he wasn’t going to die and said that he would not be the last Jedi..l

 

It was Thea and Skylar at the beginning. They were both heroes.

The main character being a woman has been claimed by LFL to be George Lucas's idea.

George Lucas's initial idea for Crystal Skull was for Indiana Jones's secret daughter, but Spielberg nixed that idea.

 

The Jedi academy is lite an elite school system / martial arts training Center / philosophy Center of Light side knowledge from what we’ve seen.

If you grew up around hand to hand combat and practice daily as it seems Rey probably does with her staff then at 19, with an exceptional midichlorian count, you might be comparable to all but the best academy students and that’s what we see of Rey.

She’s behind in saber skill in Obi-Wan, Darth Maul, Zett Jukassa, and Anakin Skywalker at young ages.

The only other real comparison of someone starting late is Luke and we know why he was such a poor student and learner. He had a ton of doubt and didn’t believe and a more pampered life where he didn’t have to train in hand to hand combat as much as she did. Luke put his Force power into his flying more. I have no doubt that if there was somehow an age 19 X-wing flying competition that Luke would have destroyed Rey. Just as I’m sure that if there was a staff hand to hand combat competition at age 19 she would have destroyed him. As she should given her interest in it and background.

We’ve now seen her practicing with her staff and saber unprovoked and without Simone telling her to train 100% more often than we did Luke through 2 films. She clearly likes hand to hand combat more than he did at the same age.

Luke helped her learn more about the Force and will continue to in IX. Just as the texts will.

 

The only "problem" is if you ignore what the movie demonstrates. Rey had been suppressing the knowledge of her parents' identify and the circumstances of her abandonment for many years, living on Jakku in denial, and in TLJ she finally allows herself to remember. Kylo doesn't tell Rey who her parents were; she tells him. He says "Or have you always known?" and she acknowledges the truth when she responds, "They were nobody." Yes, it's significant and yes, it's compelling.

 

Her upbringing doesn't even hamstring her ability in any way. If you think about it, she should (in theory) have a lot of Anakin's struggles with immersion into the Force but she really doesn't have that problem either.

 

Or Rey only feels they are nobody after the dark side cave wanted her to think that and Kylo Ren near the beginning of the movie had told her she was thrown away like trash. Throughout the movie it is the dark side telling her that.

 

It's pretty straight forward.

First, she's had trouble accepting that her parents were 'nobody' junk traders who were willing to just throw her away like garbage, realizing that she comes from nothing, and understanding that it has no bearing on who she is or what she can become. I guess it's really easy to be brought up on your own after being discarded by your parents like nothing at the age of 6. Sorry I missed that.

She's had trouble understanding that heroes and legends can't always save the day for you. She thought that Han Solo could save the day and defeat Kylo Ren and the First Order. She was wrong. "Han Solo can't save you." She thought that Luke would be the hero to take the lightsaber back, defeat Kylo Ren and the First Order, and save the galaxy again. She was wrong. After her vision of Ben, she thought Ben Solo was now the savior of the galaxy, and that him turning on Snoke would shift the tide of the battle in order to defeat the First Order and save the galaxy. "Then he's our only hope." She was wrong. What she needed to learn is that while heroes and legends are important to have for inspiration, it is their actions that became legendary. Hero-worshiping to the point of remaining inactive is not the way to live your life. If you need a hero, then become the hero that you want to see. Rey needed to learn that she will be the one to help save the galaxy, she can't wait for anyone to do it for her.

Finally, she's learning now that it's important to have compassion - See: BB8, Finn, Leia - but having compassion won't automatically make others compassionate themselves. Her final arc, I would imagine, probably involves how to reinstate that compassion in the character of Ben Solo. How to redeem the last living member of the Skywalker family. I don't know what that involves yet - we have to wait until IX to see that.

There are probably (definitely) more aspects to her arc that I am definitely missing here. These are just a few, but hopefully it helps you understand Rey's character a little bit more. FWIW, you don't have to fail horribly in a physical sense in order to undergo important struggle. Physical struggle is very surface-level, very thin. True personal change comes from feelings and epiphanies from within. Just because Rey never got her hand chopped off, does not mean that she hasn't failed. She's failed to get over where she comes from. And she's grown from this and understands it doesn't define who she can become. She's failed trying to bring Luke back into the fight. And she's realized that heroes and legends can't always save her. She's failed to turn Ben Solo. And she now has to deal with this failure and figure out a way to defeat him and the First Order herself.

Rey's arc is as true and real as any character arc we've seen in the saga. It may not be as 'IN YOUR FACE' as Anakin's struggle with the dark side, but it is absolutely there. It's a shame that people don't see it.

 

She pulled off some super-expert flying maneuvers with the Falcon in TFA. So she appears an ace-pilot as well. We haven`t seen anything remotely like it from Luke in ANH. Poe might beat her at this point or they`re even but there isn`t a valid skill she doesn`t excel at so far. Even swimming, the dweller of a desert world.

 

Her lesson there was not to assume that legends are flawless and sometimes they lie and make mistakes.

She told Kylo twice that she "knows the truth." She assumed that Kylo failed Luke because Kylo is Big Bad and Luke is Big Good.

She attacked Luke because there is no authority figures for her anymore. It was part of her weakness, running from Luke to Kylo with the lightsaber, with "Will you do something, you're Skywalker, make this story work, be a hero!"

It's part of Heroine's Journey. Something close to "Confronting the Powerless Father."

 

Well, it’s simple then. Maybe it’s time we start to realize what’s become obvious. Luke should not be seen as the measuring stick for Force gifts simply because of who his father was. He’s perhaps one of the weaker Force students Obi-Wan or Yoda or the academies had seen because he lacked focus and had a lot of doubt. His whole function and biggest win was just that his father ended up loving him. Obi-Wan and Yoda were basically desperate and even as late as TESB were planning out contingency plans (Leia) because Luke just wasn’t that amazing a student. This made him a compelling protagonist but we shouldn’t see him as the Gold standard for Force use in people learning it at age 19 and think nobody else could be better. It’s entirely possible he was well below average at learning and development in the Force in comparison to most students (including Rey) even if his upside remained high due to his high midi count. His potential was high but it took years of wisdom and more focus to get there.

Much of the OT is about how it takes outright lies about how Vader killed his father, and then multiple masters, and Microsoft office paper clip Force ghost help at the perfect times just to drag Luke’s butt to the finish line. If Obi-Wan wouldn’t have lied to him he’d probably have just been an amazing pilot and shot. If he hadn’t been lucky he would have been dead after jumping to his death in Empire. Luke Skywalker isn’t some measuring stick for all Force savants. He’s more the example of how easily someone with a high Midichlorian count could miss out on their vast potential by living a relatively laid back farm life, and wanting to apply their talent only to one skill like flying. Luke is the poor Force student in the saga stuck between two better savants in the saga. His father and Rey. Luke might be the most likeable and relatable of the bunch but perhaps that’s it.

Anakin is the true measuring stick for Force savants but we saw him grow up so without knowing what Rey was like at his age in TPM or AOTC I have to assume he was further ahead than she was at both ages. Some aspects of the Force perhaps only make sense when you get older anyway.

Anakin’s grandson and Rey both have the most raw talent (and likely the highest midi counts and focus) since Anakin himself.

 

You basically just described a worthless, pitiable loser with no real strengths. That doesn`t make for a compelling protagonist or hero, not even for a compelling character. If Luke in the OT had been how you appear to see him, I would have rooted for Vader to put him out of his misery. Such characters don`t appeal to me at all, as unfortunately proven right now.

Equally, the other extreme, someone who is super-competent at everything with no flaws is equally not a compelling protagonist. The key is balance between strengths and flaws.

And Anakin wasn`t remotely as much of a savant. He failed a lot, even by movie 2.

 

Rey’s arc is about discovering her self belief and self worth. It isn’t compelling though, because while she had her insecurities, sleepless nights and no knowledge of the Force until a few days ago, her actions don’t reflect this. She’s already shown to be very independent, extremely confident in saber combat, facing down a legendary Jedi Master and trash talking Snoke in his throne room. She is overconfident to the extent that she naively thinks Kylo will turn to the light.

She hasn’t developed any meaningful relationship with any remaining characters. She was separated from Finn in TLJ, she never had a real relationship with Luke, and her link to Kylo was fabricated by Snoke.

The ‘island’ Rey saw in her dreams wasn’t Ach-to, it was a metaphor for herself. She’s the island. She doesn’t need anyone else to grow her sense of self worth. She is able to control her new and considerable powers with great skill even though she had deep, long-term insecurities and a traumatic, emotionally-turbulent few days.

She’s spent her life relying on herself and being distrustful of others, and her interactions with Luke and Kylo will have reinforced that.

 

Some around the world did see Luke as flawed to the point of being annoying believe it or not.

https://www.therobotsvoice.com/2008/10/the_5_reasons_luke_skywalker_is_a_complete_idiot.php

https://www.google.ca/amp/s/www.buz.../reasons-luke-skywalker-is-the-absolute-worst

Luke was our first hero in this galaxy and many of us love him and his weakness and whiny moments but if Star Wars had never existed before and came out for the first time in 2015 with Luke I suspect the internet would have bashed him a lot more than the 23 years he enjoyed pre-internet with the world.

Some younger audiences truly don’t like him as much as Anakin already and I suspect that trend will continue with Rey into the future with younger and newer audiences.

 

I`m well aware of that. Han was always the more popular, cool one. So if you basically agree with the articles you quoted, it`s fine. No skin off my back.

However, I`m not onboard with basically glee in going "haha, look at how perfect Rey is, now she makes Luke look like even more of a worthless loser than before". Is that the only way to build the new characters like Rey up?

 

What? The discussion was about a specific scene and the dynamics (and why it made sense for Luke to not “fight”)

 

What? This makes no sense to me. Like, it really doesn't compute. The movies are her heroine's journey. It's her story, supposedly.

I mean, so what you're saying is Rey has anger issues and behaves the opposite of heroically while on her journey to become The Jedi Hero, but that's not something her character is going to learn from or sort through. It's just plot. Uh... okay...

By this argument, Rey assaulting Luke while his back was turned is actually supposed to be growth in itself? That doesn't strike me as Rey getting over her weakness. That strikes me as Rey blatantly lashing out as a result of her weakness.

Edit ~ Oh wait, sorry, I misread your point. I thought you were saying she was metaphorically rejecting Luke as a father-figure by attacking him, thereby accepting that she doesn't need a father figure. Okay, I can see your point that she was lashing out because Luke was a disappointment and she has to learn to not be disappointed. She didn't learn that in that moment, though. The scene actually reinforces that she handled things with Luke correctly.

 

My response was in relation to another post, comparing force potential and strengths of OT!Luke and Rey, not the specific scene in TLJ.

 

@AhsokaSolo

Wow, that is some wild twisting of words you've done there. All I'm saying is that Rey's anger in our story has not been a part of her Heroine's journey. She absolutely does not have anger issues. Her fight with Luke is really the only time in the trilogy that we see her anger get the best of her. I literally have no idea how you somehow got the notion that I was suggesting 'Rey has anger issues and that's totally okay for her!' It seems like you are just arguing just to argue. I'm not interested in doing that. Her character arc involves other challenges than strictly dealing with anger and emotion, really all I'm saying. Not every hero has to experience the exact same hero's journey. Luke had to deal with overcoming hate and anger. Rey has to deal with overcoming different things.