main
side
curve
  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

Lit Books LOTF - First Time Read Thread - No spoilers post-Invincible

Discussion in 'Literature' started by OutsiderJediSam, Dec 3, 2017.

  1. Vialco

    Vialco Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Mar 6, 2007
    Well, Jacen's takeover of the Galactic Alliance and legality of Cal Omas's arrest are two separate items. The former was possible thanks to the backing of the Supreme Commander of the Galactic Alliance Military and Coruscant's Senator. It's the latter that I have issues with. Jacen's loophole makes Omas's arrest and subsequent incarceration legal and I think that is the lynchpin that makes the whole thing tolerable to both the Senate and the public. The whole coup was technically legal. Cal Omas was just an imbecile about it. In a reasonable fantasy universe, the head of the secret police wouldn't be able to just enter the home of the leader of the free galaxy and arrest him without a fight. Why didn't Omas have any bodyguards that stopped Jacen from seizing the Chief of State? The Chief of State of the Galactic Alliance at a time of war has no security at all?
     
  2. OutsiderJediSam

    OutsiderJediSam Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 27, 2017
    I find this highly interesting, it seems that on Jacen's takeover, you give it credence bc the military and a senator back it - which screams of a military coup which never goes over well with the public ever - yet it did in LOTF - heck imagine if the USA military, one senator, and the head of the FBI all suddenly removed the president and took over, it'd never stand, the people would go mad!!!
    H/e, you're almost arguing FOR the concept of the actual leader of a free galaxy to have men that would shoot it out with other leaders of the govt simply over arresting him and that's more typical of a tyrant's bodyguards - bc u even pointed out Jacen had the legal authority to do it at that point, so no justification to fight back once Jacen came to arrest him....I will give u that it's weird they aren't present at all for security purposes

    So u'r argument just seems idk....pro non-free galaxy....
     
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2018
  3. OutsiderJediSam

    OutsiderJediSam Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 27, 2017
    also, I know this is a double post, but I wanted the previous statement to be about what we're discussing, and I'm all for that discussion to continue also, h/e I just read the Prologue for Inferno and I'm all confused.....

    1) so I guess this is Denning's thing, to just drop a character's return on you immediately (he did it with Alema), but once again, it just feels like there's missing story here.....

    2) considering Denning created flow-walking in TDN, it seems like he's already forgotten/changed how it works....idr Jacen needing pressurized suits before to do it, am I missing something on this...Jacen also has internal thoughts that say flow-walking can't mess up the past, but once again, in TDN it was indicated it most definitely could, wasn't it??

    3) speaking of the flow-walking, I know Tahiri probably really wanted to see Anakin again, but she obviously knows how dangerous it is, Luke and the Jedi Council totally reject doing it, yet we're not given any real reason for her going along with Jacen except....regret?, glad that's enough to make a Jedi go totally off rails......

    4) I know I might not remember, but it seems that a lot of the descriptions of the scene from Myrkr have changed from SbS...I remember them fighting out on a open area not just running into the cloning lab....that's just jarring to me if I am right bc a) it'd be easy to go read what was written before writing and b) Denning wrote both!!! hopefully, I'm the one that isn't remembering right
     
    AusStig likes this.
  4. Vialco

    Vialco Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Mar 6, 2007
    You're making a false equivalency by comparing real world governments to fictional governments in a galaxy far far away.

    In the Galactic Alliance, the Supreme Commander is the legal deputy to the Chief of State. If he's compromised or even out of action temporarily, legal authority passes to her. Omas even demonstrates that by passing over his authority to Niathal for his one-day absence when he goes to Gilatter to meet Gejjen.

    To use the real-world analogy you seem to be insistent on using, it's more like the Vice-President taking control when the President is found guilty of corruption.

    Niathal is within her rights to take control once Omas is arrested, it's the actual crime and arrest that's questionable. That's what could be debated. Omas's meeting with Gejjen could be defended and justified. But as soon as GAG had him in custody, they controlled the narrative and it was too late.

    As for Omas's non-existent bodyguards helping him resist arrest, Jacen's creation of the loophole used to arrest Omas was a criminal act, but nobody realized it or questioned it. That's what could have made the arrest illegal, if it had been foiled and later defended. As it was, the coup was swift, bloodless and completely effective. Mostly because Omas had no security and never saw it coming. Quite naive of him, really.

    And I'm not advocating for any form of government in either the fictional or real world. I'm just commenting on how a military coup took place in a fictional democratic government and how it could have been prevented, if the leader had just had some sort of security.
     
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2018
    AusStig likes this.
  5. OutsiderJediSam

    OutsiderJediSam Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 27, 2017
    I obviously misinterpreted something then, I'm sorry

    good point on how the GFFA works, u'r right that's why they are able as opposed to the examples I gave (it's not an apples to apples analogy, I was wrong)

    and as I think we've both posted, the arrest over the meeting is very questionable that what Omas did was a crime, no way it should have been that conclusive to everyone (other GAG members, Ben, Senate, Niathal, or the people of the GFFA, we know why Jacen used it, he wants full control) yet apparently it was and that's a problem to me

    I also agree that Jacen's loophole should have immediately raised suspicions, and been deemed questionable and illegal by any and all that saw it, immediate investigations into where it came from should have been conducted and found out it was Jacen, bc what he did should definitely be deemed a crime....I have a huge problem with making everyone an idiot for the sake of moving the plot of Jacen becoming ruler along easy peasy

    I get what u'r intending with Omas' security, h/e I think the notion of resisting and using that later to go against Jacen would only work if you had changed everything previously also, bc IU it isn't a crime what Jacen does and everyone falls right in line(even if that's stupid), so even if security is present then resisting wouldn't have worked for Omas, and if you change everything to make it more reasonable, I'm not sure Jacen could even go try what he did bc it wouldn't work at all, he'd be asking to be thrown in jail himself
     
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2018
  6. Darth Invictus

    Darth Invictus Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 8, 2016
    Regarding flow walking-Denning may have changed it to where it could alter the past-but it was my understanding that it actually could not.

    Caedus has an interesting conversation/argument with Tahiri over this in Invincible. He compares influencing the past via flow walking to throwing a rock in a stream. It may make some eddies and create some foam but it won't change the course of the stream. Tahiri counters that the stone is still influencing things-subtly and albeit minimally-subtly altering the course of the water from the bottom, adding to the river's weight, etc... It was very much a classic determinist vs chaos theory debate. Can the stone change the river or does it not matter?
     
  7. OutsiderJediSam

    OutsiderJediSam Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 27, 2017
    IIRC, in TDN, Jacen flow walks at the sight of Raynar's crash and Luke is very upset bc it can change the past,present or future once they go there and can feel the impression he left. It affects the present bc Leia uses his impression to find certain evidence in that same scene. Also, just in principle, if it can't change anything, then why is it so important to stay hidden while doing it???
     
  8. Darth Invictus

    Darth Invictus Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 8, 2016
    I wouldn't take Luke's reactions at face value-remember this was a power he wasn't familiar. Jacen learned about it from the Aing-Tii.
     
  9. OutsiderJediSam

    OutsiderJediSam Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 27, 2017
    fine, but what about my 2nd point, that's evidence where it did change the present/future bc w/o tapping into Jacen's flow walking, Leia wouldn't have discovered the evidence that Raynar escaped the crash.....also my 3rd point still stands I think
     
  10. OutsiderJediSam

    OutsiderJediSam Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 27, 2017
    just read Mara's funeral......please stop it now....

    1) Jacen's pure evil, the Masters all seem to know it, although no one has any real concept of stopping him, h/e if they tried I'm sure they'd be unable to do anything about it at this point

    2) Jacen's pure evil, and the galaxy is too stupid to notice or care

    3) so Jedi bodies just become FG whenever they choose now, even after death???

    4) we're told in previous book Mara's body doesn't go FG to leave evidence to prove Jacen is the kiiler but goes FG in this book just at the most convenient time to ensure Luke takes the wrong position on what it all means - can you say convenient plot!!!

    5) it just seems like the entire Council and even Ben figure Jacen killed Mara, but no one will actually just say it....that's a little frustrating...it isn't even that far a stretch to figure it out either with the events of last book even from the pov of the characters

    6) I know Luke is grieving, and realistically people might act like Luke in that moment, but for the hero of the story, he comes off as stupid and blind to me, and that's not a good look.....
    I'm at least glad at the end of the funeral he dicusses getting back into leadership with the rest of the Council
     
    AusStig likes this.
  11. Force Smuggler

    Force Smuggler Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    What is the theory called called where there are two different timelines, 1 was changed, but the 2nd one wasn't changed at all?
    Maybe it's a theory maybe it's not.
    The EU with the flow-walking just happens to be the universe that nothing changes, and the one that does change is one they wouldn't know about.
    So another timeline the kiss between Anakin and Tahiri somehow creates a timeline where Anakin lives, that time Jacen went back to Operation Knightfall might create a timeline where the clone trooper wasted ammo firing at Jacen, or didn't fire at Jacen saving the ammo to kill someone who lived.

    Shrug. Don't mind me.
     
  12. Darth Invictus

    Darth Invictus Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 8, 2016
    As I understood it it was just observation in the past.

    Though I guess ripples might affect it to some extent.
     
  13. Sinrebirth

    Sinrebirth Mod-Emperor of the EUC, Lit, RPF and SWC star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Nov 15, 2004
    Coruscant was afraid of another devastating conflict like the Vong War, and so they embraced Jacen and Niathal’s militant approach.

    Omas authorised the assassination of Jacen and Niathal. That’s illegal and unethical. Meanwhile Jacen’s acts were one but not the other.

    When Palpatine took over the Republic he didn’t have a Supreme Commander of the military he could suborn; there was no military. Jacen has the Chaos with which to threaten the GA into accepting his methods, Palpatine had to manufacture it. Palpatine also had ten thousand Jedi to conceal his machinations from. Comparing Sidious to Caedus is moot - and Sidious was considerably more successful with more impediments.

    I don’t see anything unlikely about the Solo-Niathal coup. They took us through the steps in which the GA would accept the GAG, and the militancy, and the general surrender of rights for perceived security, which, at the time of writing, was something Western countries were merrily doing.

    The only unlikely bit is Niathal accepting Solo as joint-Chief, but at the same time we all know Solo would take out Niathal if needed, and so did she. It worked better to allow him to be the fact of the bad side of events, even if she was a hardliner herself. Jacen just believed in total war, is all.

    As to flow walking, Invincible picks this up.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  14. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    In the Tales of the Jedi comics, Andur Sunrider becomes a Force Ghost without his body actually fading away. Jedi Masters in general tend to have the "body fades away" moment - but it isn't always instantaneous.
     
    Jedi Knight Fett likes this.
  15. OutsiderJediSam

    OutsiderJediSam Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 27, 2017
    I agree this is shown in the book, I'm just not sure I buy that the steps would cause the entire GFFA (Senate, people, etc) to accept hook, line, and sinker EVERYTHING that Jacen does. Also, Jacen is obviously trying to be Vader again, I feel that would be evident to everyone based off his actions, and I would think people would definitely reject that. On the real world, I'm not sure the Patriot Act equals everything Jacen did.

    I know this is a point of issue, but a lot of this comes down to how you interpret this exact concept. I personally don't feel Omas ever authorized it from the scene, h/e the book does clearly try to indicate he did by having everyone take that view immediately. So, for all those that saw the video, as I've said, it bothers me they all took that view hook, line, and sinker.

    I get that it might pick it up, but that can only add/change elements in the future once again since that book is even later on....my issue is how flow walking isn't constant in the books that have already had it in it
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2018
  16. Sinrebirth

    Sinrebirth Mod-Emperor of the EUC, Lit, RPF and SWC star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Nov 15, 2004
    It’s not being accepted though.

    The rapid growth of the Confederation, the riots, and so forth. Almost every one can see exactly what is happening but they can’t see a better alternative to Corellia having Centerpoint, a secret assault fleet and/or Sal-Solo.

    It’s a choice between a despot and lawlessness. The GAG is still called the secret police by people even though it’s open about its acts. People cringe around Jacen’s Vader-act. Wise-cracks about whether the GAG are going to start wearing white armour or not.

    And so forth.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
    Vialco and AusStig like this.
  17. OutsiderJediSam

    OutsiderJediSam Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 27, 2017
    1) I would argue that there are definitely other choices b/t those two if u think for more than one second....even if the books don't treat it like there is...
    2) You're right with those statements about "secret police" and "cringing" h/e it feels few and far b/t and usually from the Jedi, Omas, or Shevu who are all foils to Jacen....to me it def. feels like that's not the average view of the citizens which goes back to above point to me
    3) I remember the "white armor" statement from somewhere, but that seems a couple of books ago now and only used once, idk by who but I wouldn't be surprised if it was one of the above or a pro-Corellian anyway which doesn't necessarily represent the GFFA then...
     
    Sinrebirth likes this.
  18. Sinrebirth

    Sinrebirth Mod-Emperor of the EUC, Lit, RPF and SWC star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Nov 15, 2004
    What’s most important to acknowledge with LotF is that it is no more than five months from Betrayal beginning to Sacrifice ending. It’s not a lot of time. The heroes can be criticised, but how much could they do to the sudden wave of events? Democracies ponder, they need to. When rushed? They misstep.

    The same could be said for Jacen. At what point should someone have stepped in? Jacen saved the galaxy a decade ago; does he not warrant a few months worth of the benefit of the doubt?


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
    Vialco and AusStig like this.
  19. OutsiderJediSam

    OutsiderJediSam Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 27, 2017
    that's something I need to remember as I read for sure, bc to me having read 5 300+ page books, it feels like it's been a long long time of Jacen doing this, but ur right, that's not really the case....
     
  20. Darth Invictus

    Darth Invictus Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 8, 2016
    LOTF takes place over a very fast span of time. Basically a second galactic civil war erupts and the sky solo clan and galactic alliance are pushed to the breaking point in less than probably half a year.

    As for the GA and fearing another Vong War this is something I have heard but I'd still like a citation or reference on it. And if fear of another extragalactic invasion was so prevalent why not renew the whole ex gal project and invest money in defending/patrolling/surveilling the galaxy's edges?

    Quite frankly if I were the GA's defense minister,head intelligence officer, or Chief of State I'd want to be aware of any new Yuuzhan Vong threats and deal with them or at least be aware of them before they came knocking at the galaxy's door.

    And I'm curious as to why this didn't lead to more fear of "what's out there" I mean the Vong were a fearsome and terrible enemy that nearly destroyed galactic civilization. If I were a GA intelligence officer or even an average citizen I'd be afraid to imagine what was lurking in the intergalactic void and galaxy's beyond the GFFA.
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2018
    AusStig likes this.
  21. Force Smuggler

    Force Smuggler Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    Don't forget, they don't know everything in the Unknown Regions either.
    They could expand to the Satellite Galaxies as well.
     
  22. Darth Invictus

    Darth Invictus Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 8, 2016
    The satellite galaxies as I understand it were mostly metal poor with very old stars. While their seemed to be at least 3-4 civilizations in companion besh I imagine the farther out one went the less and less they'd find in the satellite galaxies and any civilization's they did find would be relatively primitive and isolated given their lack of contact with the main galaxy and quite possibly the other satellite galaxies.

    The Vong came from a very distant galaxy-though where it was in relation to the Star Wars Galaxy isn't clear-probably north or west of the galactic plane. It took them thousands of years to cross the intergalactic void and they had scouts in the galaxy as early as the KOTOR era but real preparations didn't begin until the fifty year period before the Yuuzhan Vong War itself.

    Imagine being a GA intelligence officer-with this knowledge or some of it-you know that life exists in other galaxies. You know it can reach your galaxy. It did and nearly destroyed the GFFA's civilization.

    If that's the case I can understand why the core and the GA are someone jittery and want to centralize things.

    If I were in charge-I'd be of the opinion we need to seek out extragalactic life and explore other galaxies so to better understand what we're dealing with.

    Because what if in the vast cosmos of countless galaxies there is something worse than the Vong...
     
  23. Force Smuggler

    Force Smuggler Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    The Marvel issue Into The Void could expand on this. Unless they tie it into the Yuuzhan Vong. What if DE Palpatine won? And he launched attacks on other galaxies. A Robotic galaxy, a completely Force-sensitive galaxy with many different sects, new types of governments. Etc
     
  24. Darth Invictus

    Darth Invictus Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 8, 2016
    DE Palpatine winning and expanding onwards is an interesting dystopian grimdark scenario. I think he'd encounter all sorts of galaxies like the ones you described and countless other varieties-lifeless, unified governments, robotic, politically fragmented like the Star Trek Galaxy, ruled by big empires, etc...

    It would be interesting if DE Palpatine's intergalactic empire ever ran into another galaxy or group of galaxies that he simply couldn't overwhelm with Star Destroyers and World Devastators.

    If no galaxy could-immortal Palpatine would spend basically the rest of the universe's history till it's very heat death conquering.
     
  25. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    In the Dark Forces: Jedi Knight books - the idea seems to be that if Jerec gains power from the Valley of the Jedi, he will end up conquering the universe rather than just the galaxy.