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Lit From Endor to Exegol - The State of the Galaxy Discussion Thread (Tagged Victory's Price Spoilers)

Discussion in 'Literature' started by AdmiralNick22 , Sep 6, 2015.

  1. GrandAdmiralJello

    GrandAdmiralJello Comms Admin ❉ Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque star 10 Staff Member Administrator

    Registered:
    Nov 28, 2000
    The post WWII system that was created to prevent large-scale wars is only now just breaking down -- and it's been a lot more than 30 years after the war.
     
  2. Charlemagne19

    Charlemagne19 Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Jul 30, 2000
    I think people's reaction is basically the reaction the galaxy SHOULD be having. I wouldn't be surprised if the First Order "wins" because a collaborationist and surrender-happy temporary government gives up. But we know that will never be able to succeed because the First Order does not have the support of the public and doesn't know anything about ruling effectively. They're a bit like Darth Malak's Empire in they're invincible on a military level but a failure on the political.

    Still, I think the First Order was established from the first sourcebook on TFA to have a superior military machine than the Republic.

    Mind you, I find it much easier to believe the Republic would surrender to the First Order than I would the galaxy to Roan Fel/Darth Krayt's Empire.
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2018
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  3. TheRedBlade

    TheRedBlade Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 17, 2007

    With Corellia being set up in Solo, I'm hoping that the way is paved to introduce the world as a big player in the Sequel and post-Sequel galaxy.
     
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  4. JediBatman

    JediBatman Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 3, 2015
    If you don't like how the ST has treated the OT characters and their achievements, then I'm not sure why you're so dead set against the one major exception we have in the New Canon. As for why people no longer have hope, it's because their government exploded and jackbooted thugs are everywhere.

    Because people who lived through the horrors of the Galactic Civil War (even if they were just children at the time) are still around, and some have jobs in government offices. Also as Jello said, it's been a lot longer than 30 years since WWII, yet many people seem eager not to repeat it.

    Before the destruction of Hosnian Prime, no one (aside from the Resistance) is fighting because their is no war. The New Republic is so desperate to avoid war they're in denial about the threat the FO posses. Anyone who disagrees, joins the Resistance. After Hosnian, no one is fighting for the New Republic because it kind of sort of blew up (again, except the Resistance who are fighting to restore it). I see it as similar to how in Legends loads of planets surrendered to Thrawn or the Clone Emperor.

    Keep in mind it's only been a few weeks at most of the FO beginning open hostilities towards the galaxy at large. It's easy for us, the audience, to talk about civilians and planetary leaders uprising and taking up arms. It's a lot harder if you actually are one of these civilians or leaders and you face your whole planet being devastated. The galaxy was under the heel of the Empire for around 2 decades before serious resistance began to form. Sure lots of planets are apathetic or surrendering, but if no one was fighting they'd say the FO already won, not that it would take "weeks" for them to win.

    I don't know. My guesses are that either they were busy, they're dead, they're distrustful of Leia as Vader's daughter, or they need more inspiring speeches about hope. But as I've said before, the next film is not going to have 30 people in the back seat of the Falcon take on the entire FO. They will have allies in the next film, if for no other reason than "Star Wars" tends to have action/war scenes, and that they'll need new vehicles to sell as toys.

    Even if Starkiller is destroyed, massive fleets and armies attacking a demilitarized galaxy is still pretty fear inducing. Also, a Galactic Empire esque organization secretly having another superweapon has NEVER happened before in the history of the galaxy, right?

    I hope that my responses have shown some other possible explanations for the situation.
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2018
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  5. mnjedi

    mnjedi JCC Arena Game Host star 5 VIP - Game Host

    Registered:
    Nov 4, 2012
    I know its stated that most neutral systems are surrendering in droves, but there have to be some neutral systems still fighting though right?

    I can't imagine say Ryloth or Mandalore just lying down.
     
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  6. BobaMatt

    BobaMatt TFN EU Staff star 7 VIP

    Registered:
    Aug 19, 2002
    I'm really hoping for Mandalore in IX.
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2018
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  7. sidv88

    sidv88 Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 22, 2005
    Knowing the Mandalorians and their tradition obsessed primitive ways (to the point they won't get new armor against Sabine's weapon), I won't be surprised if Kylo is Mandalorian ruler by beating their old one in 9. Took a page from Maul and Ulic Qel-Droma.

    No wonder the Fetts don't consider themselves Mandalorian in new canon.

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N910A using Tapatalk
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2018
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  8. AdmiralNick22

    AdmiralNick22 Retired Fleet Admiral star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    May 28, 2003
    The answer is simple. Fear.

    The Hosnian Cataclysm is arguably the most successful first strike in GFFA history. They killed the Senate, the chancellor, the military high command, and the home fleet of the New Republic. They did this with a weapon that no one, not even the Resistance, thought existed. The people of the Galaxy don't know how many more super weapons exist. However, the second they see a fleet of Star Destroyers come hurling out of the Unknown Regions backed by legions of stormtroopers, what options do they have?

    I suspect that it had far less to do with not wanting to fight for the NR and far more with the fact that they were literally helpless to resist. They lost hope. People felt isolated, bereft of a government to save them, and despondent that the next generation of the Empire had risen.

    There is a reason that the First Order targeted Hosnian Prime, afterall. If the New Republic was so weak and unloved, they simply could have ignored it. Instead, they were compelled to destroy the New Republic's government and fleet before launching their campaign.

    --Adm. Nick
     
  9. Noash_Retrac

    Noash_Retrac Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 14, 2006
    I think one of the reasons certain people on this board are finding hard to imagine that the loss of a majority if not all of the Republic's hierarchy is because there is no real world comparison to fall back on. This is where you have to give the idea that an entire government and military structure is in one place and that one place is taken out therefore you have a paralysed country.
     
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  10. AusStig

    AusStig Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Feb 3, 2010
    Because the new canon is nihilistic and hopeless. So I think that they should go all in for it and make in 40k levels of dark. No hope no victory no light. As they have with the Genoisians;

    Remember that ep of Rebels when they save the last queen egg so now the species can come back?
    Well the Queen is captured and made infertile, then goes insane, meaning they are now a dead race. So much for the only upside of that episode.

    Why should there be any hope when Luke gives up and runs away to die after being a total failure?

    I think if we were attacked then people would want to fight back. Here people seem very keen to give up.

    And the GCW was not bad enough for people to be this scared of war. The war only had a hand full of large battles and it did not kill enough people to scare the galaxy enough to prompt this level of fear or defeatism. If we had the Legends history (war going on for another 15 years past Endor) then I could get it. But currently it's like the US with drawing after Japan attacked it in Peal Harbour.

    The Galaxy did not suffer during the last war enough justify this attitude from the younger generation (the ot crowd not PT)

    The Republic was still fighting Thrawn and they had allies in the fight against the Emperor, here no one seems to care or even want to help.

    Except we don't see confusion, in fact canto seems not to care AT ALL and since they are powerful players I assume their possessions are safe. So people seem to not care about the Republic they were profiting from going down in flames.

    Now part of the issue is that we know nothing about the galaxy outside of what characters say, we can assume that the Res fleet is the biggest threat to the FO since they have their biggest ship to the battle. So the NR is dead and none of the 'key systems' are more of a threat then 1 warship.

    I assumed the weeks, part was just travel time, since we don't see them using the Supremacy to take the key systems. Unless the FO has a fleet comparable to the Empire, in which case the NR is completely useless, as they did not find this out and start a re-armenent program.

    So they don't care about the NR enough to help? Their mistrust out ways their loyalty.

    Why not set this up now? (I don't disagree I just think it's dumb not to set it up now)

    If they have these super weapons, why aren't they using them?

    Also the galaxy is in the state it's in because of the NR

    Possible yes but not probable (at least I don't think so)

    So all it took to take out the NR was to kill the leadership and destroy one fleet?

    All the FO had to do was kick in the door and then the whole structure collapsed?

    Nick the fact that all it takes to break the NR is the loss of the capital (a moving one I should point out) and one fleet shows how weak the bonds holding it together.

    How big is the FO fleet are they able to attack the entire galaxy? (not having a go at you, but I would like these questions to be answered, not guesses by us, but an actually book, maybe one that lays out the state of the galaxy)

    But then they receive a call to fight....and they do nothing, they don't even answer.

    It depends on if they have anything to fight with, if the entire NR disarmed then it's stupid, if the local systems had fleets, why don't they use them?

    After the Empire lost the death star the Rebels GREW, things can out way fear of death, such as fear of what they will lose if they don't fight. (the non-human member worlds should be fighting to the death against the new Empire)

    But there are other level of government, sector, planet, etc. That could (of they wanted to) organise a fight or new gov.

    Nick said as much before TLJ
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2018
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  11. AdmiralNick22

    AdmiralNick22 Retired Fleet Admiral star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    May 28, 2003
    @AusStig

    RE: The First Order Navy and the various planetary defense forces of the New Republic membership, there really isn't anything in print yet that confirms either. All we know is that the First Order Navy was smaller than the Imperial Navy, but apparently not as large as the New Republic Navy at the time of TFA. Both of those statements came from the visual dictionary for TFA, which holds up fairly well (despite some parts being retconned in the years since).

    We do know that the First Order's Star Destroyers are far more heavily armed and armored than their New Republic counterparts, plus they have the advantage of being newer than many of the legacy designs that the NRDF fielded. Even if the NRDF survived the Hosnian Cataclysm, they would have been hard pressed to defeat the First Order head on. We know that larger warships like the MC85 and Starhawk were quickly decommissioned in favor of smaller, less crew intensive designs. So you have the NRDF basically equipped with upgraded MC80's that are 1.2km in length vs. First Order Star Destroyers nearly 3 times their size. All of that is a moot point, as we know that the home fleet was basically the main New Republic fleet. It's loss ensured that the membership couldn't count on the fleet riding to their aide.

    As for the various PSF's, it's unclear how large or powerful they are. We know that ships like the 500m+ Nebulon-C frigate and 450m+ Vakbeor-class cargo frigates were common in the New Republic. We also know that Corellia was building Bunkerbuster corvettes for NR member worlds like Virgillia. All of this paints a pictures of the various PSF's being large composed of escort ships under 600m. Even in large numbers, these vessels would fare poorly against the FO's largest destroyers.

    You're obviously free to maintain that you think the NR was a failure no one thought worth fighting for, but as you can see above many others besides myself have laid out why this doesn't appear to be the case. When you factor in there being no federal government, no federal navy, and the various members being severely outgunned and outnumbered, it's no surprise why many surrendered.

    I'll add yet again - Rey notes that "major systems" are still fighting the First Order and will fall without aid. So for some of the Galaxy's key systems, the war is still very much on. That shows that the New Republic's members are fighting, albeit with little hope and little ability to aid each other, let alone dispatch ships to Leia.

    [face_peace]

    --Adm. Nick
     
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  12. DarthPhilosopher

    DarthPhilosopher Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 23, 2011
    We know that it killed billions. Your analogy simply doesn't hold water.

    I maintain that it was the traumatising effect of the Empire and the GCW that caused them to not rearm or take the First Order as a serious threat. Combined with the fact that they simply were deceived as to it's military capacity.

    Their apparent willingness to capitulate is simply a result of the overwhelming force not from an unwillingness to resist. For instance they are currently faced with a military capacity far out-stretching theirs, with the apparent ability to destroy entire systems, and who have just destroyed their centralised military and capital. They also have the ability to track any planetary military they engage making it practically impossible to regroup and form any sort of unified front. All the military brass of the New Republic and it's allies are no doubt remembering the GCW and thinking how these odds are so much more extreme with the hyperspace tracking, and are no doubt beaten and without hope.

    The First Order is also much more brutal than the Empire, and are no doubt struggling to square how they could launch a resistance if they were to cause massive reprisals to civilians (with no apparent prospect of victor). Resistance is brave when it works out in the end - it's seen as foolhardy if it doesn't.
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2018
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  13. Jedi Ben

    Jedi Ben Chosen One star 9

    Registered:
    Jul 19, 1999
    The biggest problem, right now, with the ST is that the two films are, more-or-less, about a week's worth of time.

    It is undeniably the case that governments can bounce back from probably just about anything, but not in the space of a week.

    Similarly the Starkiller. We know it was taken out, but does the rest of the now terrified galaxy that is seeing FO invasion fleets turning up everywhere know that? I doubt it.

    As for the FO fleet being unknown to the NR, Bloodline showed how everthing, including intelligence operations had to go through the Senate and the Senate had enough covert FO-backers to block any such investigation.

    Yep. The lesson the FO took from the Empire's loss was that the Empire wasn't nasty enough.
     
  14. Noash_Retrac

    Noash_Retrac Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 14, 2006
    True. We saw in two films the space of a few days and it was largely following the Resistance and their search for Luke Skywalker. Things may change now with Snoke dead and Kylo Ren shown to be incompetent.
     
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  15. JediBatman

    JediBatman Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 3, 2015
    @AusStig

    In addition to what others have said:

    The Galactic Civil War was far from "just a handful of battles". It was more than just the battles in the films. Even before the Alliance formed there were crackdowns and atrocities that caused many civilian deaths on Christophis and Ghorman. And even if we ignore the out-and-out battles, there was all the slavery and work camps.
    And let's not forget, Alderaan. You say "The Galaxy did not suffer during the last war enough justify this attitude from the younger generation" . . . to describe a war that included genocide.

    Canto Bight is explicitly said to be a playground of the rich and powerful, and with many of it's patrons being weapons dealers and other shady characters. Using them to judge how the rest of the galaxy sees the Republic and/or the conflict with the First Order is going to skew the results.

    And as I said before, it's easy to say "why don't they just fight to the death?" when we're sitting comfortably in the audience talking about fictional characters. It's not so easy when you're actually living under the threat of death.

    You keep using the analogy of the US surrendering after Pearl Harbor, but Pearl Harbor did not involve Japan simultaneously nuking Washington DC and 4 other major cities before then invading with a much larger army. You're comparing apples and oranges.

    Look, I will partially agree that the fall of the Republic was a little fast (just like I think the fall of the Empire was a little fast), but I think the info we've been given helps justify it. You keep saying things like:

    A government collapsing after all it's leaders and five *planets* explode should not be met with "So that's all it took?
     
  16. Charlemagne19

    Charlemagne19 Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Jul 30, 2000
    It's a popular fictional trope, though. Look at DESIGNATED SURVIVOR and Tom Clancy's DEBT OF HONOR.

    Because the new canon is nihilistic and hopeless. So I think that they should go all in for it and make in 40k levels of dark. No hope no victory no light. As they have with the Genoisians;

    Also, we don't know WHY the government doesn't come to help Leia and it may simply be the First Order is beating them militarily.
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2018
  17. AusStig

    AusStig Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Feb 3, 2010
    But for what I know of new cannon the only genocide was Genosis, a planet in the outer rim, it's not camis

    Yeah those were atrocities, like the holocaust. but that didn't make people say "we should never again fight a war" it motivated people to say 'never again'

    I did not say the galaxy did not suffer, I said it did not suffer during the war. What atrocities were committed during the war? All I can think of is Alderaan. The other atrocities are justification for the war, which should play into people not wanting them back.

    The reason ww1 left more of a mark then ww2 (at least in the western nations) was 1. it was the first time something that bad had happened. 2. the massive deaths within battle. I think this more fits the Clone Wars compared to GCW.

    My point was that unlike CW the GCW wasn't wall to wall massive battles so people didn't suffer as much from the battles.

    Well they should care in some way given that they also supply the NR (Although this is more a flaw of the movie since, Canto was a great opportunity to do some world building)

    If Neo-Nazis attacked Israel I don't Israel would just role over even if they had some of their cities nuked, since to lose mean death (or worse). I was speaking about the alien races (humans folding I could understand since they have other options)

    Well first I would say that is more like 4 nukes at DC (since the planets were all in the same system) and taking out surrounding towns.

    but if you want a better comparison, how about nationalist China after the battle of Nanking

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Nanking

    The lose of their capital and most of their best troops, they did not surrender. They kept fighting for another 8 years

    The number of planets really isn't that important since they are all in the same place

    Also the Empire did not surrender after DS2, it took another major battle to make that happen. Are we to belive that the Empire had more loyalist then the NR? ( I mean it would fit with the bleak galaxy of cannon, but still)

    @AdmiralNick22

    I concede to your fleet junkie mastery. (respectful bow)

    There are a lot of advantages to taking out the enemy leadership, general confusion and being able to concentrate your entire force against elements of theirs. However, my point is that, with in the film, the squadron of Restaince ships are the biggest threat to the FO. It seems strange to me that they would be more of a threat then any fleet of the major systems. Even if an anverage FO ship could out fight an average NR ship (and assuming the NR ships are better then local fleets, as I feel it is safe to do so). The opening craw seems to imply that

    Where does it say how many were killed in cannon?

    I can see it causing a fear of big government armed forces (which the NR played up with it's disarmament) but what about sector fleets or local forces?

    Also do they know they can be tracked? Also they can organise (or scatter) even if they are being tracked. Their willingness to capitulate shows they are unwilling to fight

    That should not help them against groups who have nothing to lose by fighting, Aliens were not treated well under them Empire so why should they NOT fight to the death if the options are death or worse death? Unless they don't care.

    If the galaxy has no hope it's because the NR inspired none.

    People rally around things they care about if they are attacked. The fact that no one rallied (as shown with Leia at the end, not even answering), to me shows that no one cares enough.

    And if the FO had infiltrators and or sympathisers throughout the NR, then that proves my point about corruption doesn't it?
     
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  18. mnjedi

    mnjedi JCC Arena Game Host star 5 VIP - Game Host

    Registered:
    Nov 4, 2012
    It does appear to me that the NR did actually have its entire fleet at Hosnian Prime. Hux was being entirely litteral in TFA, they actually just blew up everything because the NR was kind enough to keep litteraly all of thier assets in one place.

    I'm not a huge fan of how simplistic that is, but it does make sense given everything else.
     
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  19. Vialco

    Vialco Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Mar 6, 2007
    Thank the extremely incompetent Chancellor Villecham. And Kor Sella. She failed in her mission to convince the Senate of the First Order threat.
     
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  20. Havoc123

    Havoc123 Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 26, 2013
    Were the Geonosians alright in Legends? If I'm wrong I think they were enslaved, and then liberated and avoided the Yuuzhan Vong because they never went that far down South.
     
  21. TheRedBlade

    TheRedBlade Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 17, 2007
    Hopefully someone can help me out with a source for this, but wasn't the Republic fleet massed at Hosnian Prime because the Senate was debating sending it into action against the First Order?

    I also think it's a bit harsh to say the Kor Sella failed. Her mission was in progress. She hadn't given up yet, and considering she was standing right next to the Chancellor when they died, it looks like she had succeeded in getting some high-level meetings with the leaders of the Senate. Given a few more hours/days/weeks, maybe she could have made a difference. Sadly, the First Order moved up their own timetable.

    I see Korrie as getting stuck doing one of these.

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2018
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  22. AusStig

    AusStig Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Feb 3, 2010
    Yes in legends they were enslaved and suffered under the Empire. But yeah after liberation they just sat quitely in their corner of the galaxy minding their own business, I think they may have given the NR/GA droids during the Vong War.

    As compared to cannon where they go extinct, completely under cutting the uplifting end of the episode of Rebels.
     
  23. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    It's worth remembering that the "uplifting episode" was written after the "last Geonosian Queen is sterile" comic.
     
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  24. AusStig

    AusStig Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Feb 3, 2010
    I did not know that. Since I only watched the show.

    Now it's even more depressing
     
  25. Noash_Retrac

    Noash_Retrac Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 14, 2006
    It's true. Korr Sella's mission was ongoing. Who's to say that the New Republic may have been considering taking action against the First Order and that's why a majority of the fleet was in the Hosnian system.
     
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