PT Plot Holes and Inconsistencies in the Prequel Trilogy

That's not "the structure of a plan" that's just intending to ask someone else for help. If Boss Nass said "no screw you racist jerks" she would have been screwed.

 

I didn't say it wasn't. I said that Lucas had more in mind than just another call back. Lucas used that to kill two birds with one stone. To show Anakin as a hero and to show why the Empire didn't employ Battle Droids later on.

That's after she had all of her assets in place. Now she knew that there were two Jedi, fifteen N-1 fighters, an army of Gungans and about a dozen or so Naboo soldiers.

Just like Jyn would have been screwed if Mon Mothma didn't decide to send out the fleet to help at Scarif. Or if Luke was not allowed to fly at the Battle of Yavin. Or if the Falcon was allowed to go into Starkiller Base. Padme knew that Boss Nass was going to say no, which is why she appealed to him directly. Jar Jar clued her in as to why the two races were at odds with each other and knew that the best way to liberate Naboo was to unite the races by appealing to Nass.

 

No that's what the Clone Wars were for.

No he didn't. In fact she seemed quite surprised when they realized the Gungans thought the Naboo thought they were better than them.

 

Yes, but Lucas was setting up in TPM that the droids had a fault with remote control, whereas the Clone Army doesn't have that.

When the subject is first brought up, it is on Coruscant. Jar Jar says that the only reason he thinks that the Naboo doesn't like the Gungans was due to them having an army. But for Padme, at least, that was never true. She realizes that they're at odds because they never made overtures to get to know each other. Both races were making judgment calls without knowing all the facts. When she talks to Boss Nass, she is aware that he will say no to any overtures being made by Sabe on her behalf. That's why she reveals herself and humbles herself. When Nass sees this, it is enough to sway him. She is not surprised when he says this. She's relieved that her first major bit of diplomacy worked. Before that on Coruscant, she expresses no hint of surprise when Jar Jar gives his opinion on the matter.

 

And the clones had a fault with being clumsy oafs who couldn't hit anything and lost a battle to teddy bears.

Thanks for that information. Can you also tell me who dies at the end? *SPOILERS*!

 

First off, stormtroopers aren't clones (but I know you probably won't accept that for some reason).

Secondly, the stormtroopers aren't as oafish and incompetent as they're made out to be. On the Death Star in A New Hope, they're under orders to let the heroes escape. In TESB, I don't recall any instances of them being conspicuously bad shots. Simply not happening to to hit hero characters with plot shields around them doesn't translate to them being bad marksmen. In ROTJ, they're overwhelmed by the Ewoks for the same reason U.S. soldiers were overwhelmed by Viet Cong: the Ewoks are on their home turf, and they make use of guerilla tactics which conventional militaries are woefully ill-equipped to combat.

 

Yeah this is basically winging it.
Go back to Naboo and see what happens.
Going back and hoping that the blockade is gone, that the Gungans are still at large and willing to help and that the TF have been kind enough to leave the fighters alone.
This is seat-of-the-pants kind of plans.

@darth-sinister
I am an optimist so here goes

1) Sidious ordered Nute to remove the blockade?
PPOR, show scene and dialogue IN the film where this happens.
If you can't, admit that you made it up.

2) Consider what you argue here, Sidious informs Nute that Padme is coming back and tells him to remove the blockade?
The blockade that would make capturing or killing her MUCH easier.
That is not just stupid, it is impressively stupid!

3) If more forces are coming from Coruscant, having the blockade there to deal with it makes much better sense than running away. If Nute runs, all has been for nothing.

Bye.
Blackboard Monitor

 

You're right. I heard in the Warsaw ghetto the Jews also used their lovable savvy to throw rocks and shoot slingshots that defeated the Na- er, ah, wait that doesn't sound right...

 

What the hell even is this? My God, the disingenuousness.

 

Kinda like Luke's plan for getting into the detention center? Or Luke's plan for rescuing Han and Leia? Or Han's plan for rescuing Rey and destroying the Starkiller Base's shields. Or my favorite Indiana Jones quote about plans.

INDY: "I don't know, I making this up as a I go."

So, Darth Sidious, who gives orders to Nute, suddenly doesn't and Nute decides to show initiative?

The blockade was removed before she decided to go back. As I pointed out in the deleted dialogue, the blockade was removed because the planet was on lockdown. All spaceports were captured and there was no danger in Republic forces coming there to deal with the Federation, nor anyone else escaping.

The Ewoks did more than just throw rocks. They used rope to clothesline Scout Troopers, used rope and the momentum of the Speeder Bikes slam them into trees, used large logs to smash and trip AT-ST's. The bola as a weapon is effective against anyone, regardless of weapon and armor. Armor, which by the way is incapable of stopping blaster fire.

 

And when you can't make an argument you just make up fanfic. What a pair we are.

 

My point exactly.

What fan fic?

 

Well most recently, @Samuel Vimes called you out on this. You've yet to address it.

 

Once again, this is implication. Nute isn't going to just up and move the fleet out of their own his own. He's only there because of Sidious telling him to do this. He told him to start the invasion. He told him to eliminate the Jedi. He told him to kill Padme when she came back. He told him to starve the populace. But now, in this one matter, he's not going to tell him what to do? Nute's going to grow a pair of balls and take the initiative? When he never does in the Saga.

 

Except he never did. You just made it up.

 

In ANH, Luke did not have any other resources to call upon, same with ESB.
Padme could have talked with the Jedi beforehand, explained her intent and asked them for help.
She didn't because "plot says so".
I've made this point before, when attacking the DS, the rebels did not send just two fighters and kept the other 28 on the ground.
Why?
Because that would look stupid.
They used as many fighters as they could.

So you don't have the proof I asked for and instead you try to obfuscate the issue.
Why am I not surprised.
This is why discussing with you is frustrating at times.
You make stuff up and when called upon it, you either ignore it or try to deflect it.

Also, your argument here is in direct contradiction with what you said in another thread;

So when it suits your argument, Nute is capable of acting on his own. And other times, he can't put one foot in front of the other without orders from Sidious.

[/QUOTE]

And even more stuff you made up. When exactly was the blockade removed? Show scene and dialogue IN the film.
Also, earlier you said that the blockade was removed because Sidous told Nute to remove it, now it is because the planet is in lock-down. Which is it?
And the blockade was there not just to stop ships from leaving but also to stop ships from arriving.

Also, between Padme leaving Naboo and arriving on Coruscant, neither the TF nor Sidous could know exactly what would happen.
Could Padme get help from some other republic world, could the Jedi get more involved?
A lot of things are possible so removing the blockade is not smart.
Plus the TF want to pretend like nothing has happened.

Bye for now.
Blackboard Monitor

 

Just a wee reminder. Nobody's claiming Luke had a clever plan or strategy in ANH. It's pointless mentioning that he didn't.

 

Right!
Lukes plans/strategy:

*help uncle find a droid that speaks Bocce
*head over to Tosche Station for power converters
*clean up the new droids or there'll be hell to pay
*find Artoo or he's gonna get it
*become a Jedi like my father

 

If the Wookiees had done everything the Ewoks did then would they be perceived by some as just as "throwing rocks"?

I doubt it.

The only real problem in ROTJ is the ability to realize the full extent of the battle as you can now (or even 20 years ago) which was the same for the Hoth ground battle which also has far more going on then they could show then.

 

who says she didn't ? The film makes it clear that the Jedi can't fight a war for her , QG says this . We are meant to assume some things for ourselves , we don't need scenes that go nowhere .

 

Darth Sidious gives the orders to Nute Gunray. That's clear from the films.

I'm not talking about resources with Luke. I'm talking about Luke not having a good plan for rescuing Leia, which she points out when they're pinned down by Stormtroopers.

LEIA: "This is some rescue. When you came in here, didn't you have a plan for getting out?"

HAN: "He's the brains, sweetheart."

LUKE: "Well, I didn't..."

Luke came up with a plan based on the resources that he had which was a Wookiee and a smuggler using stolen Stormtroopers. It wasn't even a good plan as we saw. But it was what they had to work with. Likewise, with Luke and his rescue plan. He didn't sit down a work out a full plan either. He just winged it. Padme, on the other hand, did have a barebones plan and then went from there.

And they wouldn't be able to help her without approval from the Senate, which is bogged down in procedure and scandal.

Let me ask you something, which makes more sense? That Palpatine orders him to pull the fleet since the planet is now secure and there's no need for it, or Nute's incompetent enough to move the fleet and Palpatine doesn't get ticked off about it, since it could jeopardize his plan? We don't see Maul telling Palpatine that the fleet is gone and Palpatine never gets upset about that.

The argument is that Qui-gon states that the actions of the Federation in blockading Naboo is something that isn't uncommon for them. Their actions in invading a planet to force a treaty signing to legitimize their occupation of the planet, using their Droid Army and starving the populace isn't like them at all. That is something that can only happen if they have someone directing them to commit these crimes. Nute doesn't begin the invasion until Palpatine tells him to. The population being starved to death isn't carried out until he decides to give consent. Killing the Jedi comes from him. Etc. So why would Nute do something as reckless as remove the fleet and the Sith don't seem to be bothered by that at all?

@1:18. This is the last time we see the fleet surrounding Naboo. The next time we see Naboo planetary shot, it's when the Queen's ship arrives.

It's both.

Right and now there's no more point in keeping a blockade, but there's a point in keeping the Droid Army going.

True. When Padme leaves, he's smiling at her as she goes and then orders her death as he's done with her. He doesn't know that she will unite the Gungans, that Maul would be presumed dead and that the Chosen One would destroy the control ship.

Palpatine knows that no other world will get involved, as he's already told her that the Senate is filled with bickering and corrupt individuals that were more self-interested than in the common good. And he knows that the Jedi will not go against the Senate on this. So he's not worried.

No, they know that the Senate is aware of the blockade. What they would object to is having invaded the planet and the strong arm tactics designed to force Padme's to sign the treaty. That's why Lott Dodd kept objecting in the Senate.

 

He never tells him to shut down the blockade. (STRAWMAN ARGUMENT) Clever move trying to move the goal post just slightly enough that your fanfic seems like it happened.

 

Because we see when she decides to return to Naboo, it is when she talks to Jar Jar.
At that point, she has NO idea that the blockade is gone, she has NO idea if fighters in the palace are in working order, she has NO idea if the Gungans are still free or if they'll help her of that she has any help at all beyond her own personal guards.
Yet she does this.
Is the intent to shown that she plans to martyr herself over this, die a pointless death or join her people in captivity?
I doubt it.

So she has some hope that she can overcome the considerable obstacles in front of her.
And the writing is lazy in that instead of having her make some kind of plan to deal with an issue, like the blockade, the blockade is just gone.
And what is even more lazy is that she isn't shown being informed of this, she just goes back with no plan to deal with the blockade and as luck has it, the blockade is conveniently gone.

Imagine if in ANH, the rebel base did not exist and Leia instead picked a planet at random, she didn't know if they had a military of not, of if they would help her and yet the same events play out.
That would be contrived.

Instead ANH has scenes where they download the data from R2, we have a scene that talks in detail about the defenses of the DS and how they plan to exploit them.
And the rebels use lots of fighters, at least 30.
So they use most if not all the fighters they have. Because not doing that would be stupid.
In TPM, the Jedi have lots of members that are not shown to be engaged in anything important.
And unlike the senate, the Jedi know that the TF have attacked and invaded a republic world and the sith might be back.
This should be a serious problem and one they should give some serious attention to.
And yet they send only two Jedi.
Why not more?
No answer is ever given.
Did they think that was enough to deal with a blockade, droid army and possible sith lord while also protecting Padme and looking after a nine year old boy?
Or did they want to send more people but couldn't for some reason?

We don't know, because again the writing only bothers with the bare minimum.
If the characters sat down and talked, they would realize that taking a nine year boy into a war zone is foolishly risky and thus Anakin would stay behind. But the plot needs him to be there and so he is.
And so on.

@darth-sinister

You keep dodging my request for proof.
You make the claim, you back it up. It is a very simple thing.
If you can't prove your claim, admit it.

By refusing to do either, your argument is dishonest.
You make up anything you fell like and then don't bother with backing up your claims.
Again, this is why discussions with you go nowhere because you can make up anything that serves your argument and I can't argue against it because it is made up.
Like I ask why the Jedi didn't send three of four Jedi with Padme and you claim "The rules forbid it."
You never provide proof of these rules or that they are this specific, you just say it.

A few comments on what you said;

Have I said that Luke always had brilliant, well-thought out plans?
Have anyone here made such a claim?
In this instance, Luke thought of a plan for all of five seconds and improvised with what little he had.
Padme had more than five seconds to think and could ask around for more help but didn't.
And the plot decided to play nice.
And with Luke, people comment and question his risky plans.
At no point does anyone in TPM comment on Qui-Gon bringing a nine year kid into a war-zone.

I have mentioned the rebels, that they take their time to analyze the plans and come up with a plan that they explain BEFORE the pilots leave and they use more than two fighters. They use most if not all they have, they even include Luke, whom they don't really know.

Except that they DID help her by sending two Jedi along.
NOT helping would mean sending ZERO Jedi with her.

Why is it so impossible that Nute, seeing that the invasion is going so smoothly and they have control of the planet, that he decides that the blockade isn't needed and send the ships away. And Sidious is told about it but he doesn't mind it because he doesn't see a problem.
Or that during one of their briefings, Nute mentions that all is going so well and that the blockade isn't really needed anymore and ask if he can remove it and Sidious says ok.
There are many options here, beyond your insistence that Sidious ORDERED Nute to do it, which you still haven't proved.

And if we use your method of making stuff up, perhaps the other ships were eaten by a space dragon.
Or when invasion was a success, the TF people had a party and got really drunk and the crew on all but one of the ships, decided to play bumper-cars with their big ships and destroyed all of them.
Or Nute thought that the crew of those other ships were conspiring against him and blew them up.
See how easy it is to make stuff up?

All we do know is that there was a blockade and now it is gone. No explanation given.

The real reason is again the writing, Lucas had the blockade but when he had Padme go back he realized that if the blockade was still there, her ship could get blown up.
And instead of coming up with a way that they could get pass the blockade, he just had the blockade disappear. When, why and by whose orders, those are questions that the film doesn't want to bother answering.
Which is lazy writing.

Except this is contradicted by the opening crawl.

If this is so common, that the TF blockade planets once a week, then this wouldn't be "alarming", it would just be Tuesday.
And you contradict your own argument, on the one hand you insist that Nute never acts on his own, he always waits for orders.
And on the other, even if Sidious did not exist, Nute would order the blockade and also the REMOVAL of said blockade after a while.
This is the problem when you make stuff up to suit your argument, you can contradict yourself.

You misunderstood, I was talking about the time between her LEAVING Naboo the first time and her arriving on Coruscant.
Palpatine wanted her found and brought back.
At that point in time, he didn't know exactly what would happen.

Also, he orders her death, as in, telling the TF that she is coming back and that they can kill her?
Wouldn't it be a good idea for the TF to get some of those ships BACK so that capturing/killing Padme would be that much easier?
If they had removed the blockade at this time, since they get a heads up before she arrives, call some of those ships back and blast her ship before she can land. Simple.

Again I was talking about the time BEFORE she arrived on Coruscant.
He didn't know what she would do.
Going back to Coruscant is the likely alternative. But thus far she hasn't show up.
What is she doing?

Exactly, thus it is in the TF's interest to keep the blockade there and act like nothing has happened.
If the senate finds out that the blockade is gone, that could lead to questions and the TF don't want that.

Bye.
Old Stoneface

 

I never said that he was shown doing that. I said that Palpatine had told Nute to go ahead and remove the blockade since the war was over and the planet was secured.

She has a plan before going back. As to the blockade, she made it past them once, she believes that she can do it again.

Who cares? They're letting a fourteen year old girl serve as Queen and lead them into battle, yet no one really questions that in the films. You really need to get off that horse.

And Padme does the same. Once she has her assets together, she formulates a plan that Qui-gon says is a good plan. She uses all of her assets to her advantage in winning the battle. The fact that she doesn't do it before leaving for Naboo, which is really a non issue, is your only complaint.

Qui-gon and Obi-wan didn't help as we saw in the film, other than fighting Maul and deflecting a few blaster bolts in the hangar. Qui-gon specifically says that he cannot fight a war for her and they cannot involved in recruiting the Gungans, nor leading the troops into battle.

Given that we see Nute do what Palpatine says, it seems most likely that he ordered him to remove it. The fact that you want to fight about what I said, is really ridiculous.

You mean, just like her ship got blown up when it left Naboo?

It's alarming because it comes on the heels of the taxation of trade routes and is happening to a major Republic world. Past dealings were smaller in scale and nature. Usually they wold go after worlds that dealt in mining and agriculture and would only back down if they weren't able to prove their case. This time they were trying to take control of Naboo, in protest of the new taxation laws.

I wasn't contradicting myself. As Qui-gon notes, the actions of the Federation in going beyond just a mere blockade and into full scale invasion, were unusual and suggested to him that someone else was behind this. He's already familiar with what the Federation would and wouldn't do, as he tells Obi-wan while waiting to meet with Nute.

Which is why Nute is an idiot as he does not do that very thing and is why Dooku and Grievous had to control things more directly during the war.

He probably was confused as to where she was, which is why he set up the bait call from Bibble, so that Maul could trace the location of the planet where she was at. Once he's aware that she's on Tatooine, he most likely concluded that the ship was damaged in some way, which would prevent her from coming straight to Coruscant or going to some place like Corellia or Aldreaan.

They can lie and say that they gave up the ghost and left on their own accord. Right now they're trusting Sidious when he tells them that he's controlling things in the Senate, which would prevent them from getting into trouble.

 

EDIT: Double post.