PT Obi Wans Master

And you fail to understand Anakin's motivations. He's motivated by power and that motivation is fueled by fear of loss. He wants to be all powerful and the way to become all powerful is to choose the dark side, because it will give you what you think you want. Which is control. Control over everything and everyone. Including control over life and death. The Tuskens hurt him by taking his mother from him, so he hurts them by taking their lives from them. He will lose his wife and has been told that the key to saving her lies in the forbidden teachings of a religious group that is targeted for termination by his own people. And in the battle between his wife and the Jedi, he will choose his wife over the Jedi. He will kill them all in order to keep Palpatine alive so that Padme will live.

And as the films have long pointed out, a Jedi can only become more powerful by surrendering to the dark side and killing indiscriminately. This is why the Sith provoke the Skywalker men into using the dark side in order to destroy them, telling them that their anger and hate makes them powerful. That it gives them focus and they can feel stronger as a result. Anakin says that he feels more powerful after all the killing. And we see Luke have a look of exhilaration both times he cuts loose with the dark side.

Anakin is only saved because he lets go of his desire for power. He realizes that he could have saved Padme by not embracing the dark side. He realizes that he always had the power within himself. He realizes that he can save Luke as he is and not as he wanted to be. When he struggles between the light and the dark, he is struggling between compassion and passion. Between selflessness and selfishness. If he stands by and lets Luke die, he is choosing to be greedy and selfish. He is choosing the dark side over the light and his desire to be the Dark Lord of the Sith and possible Emperor of the Empire. If he saves Luke, he is destroying everything that he has ever wanted. He is giving up his life for his son's. He is giving up all of his goals and ambitions in life. He will destroy Palpatine not for ambition, but for unconditional love.

 

The point is that the foreknowledge gained through the Force is an unnatural thing. Anakin can't be around to protect his mother at all times. What would happen if he had acted soon enough and saved her? She would still be at risk for being kidnapped by the Tuskens in the future. The point is that Shmi was free and exactly where she wanted to be, and as a result of that she got taken and killed. In the natural course of events there would have been no way for Anakin to have known she was in danger and no way to have stopped what happened. There are countless women just like Shmi all over the galaxy who will die just like she did due to the natural course of events, and there'll be no way for Anakin to know in advance and nothing he'll be able to do to stop it. He's not all-powerful and there are some things he can't control. Visions of the future are manifestations of anxieties and worries and are inherently tinged with the dark side. Tampering with the laws of causality is not something that should be done lightly.

 

Ahsoka got visions about Padme, without having any particular worries about her at the time. And she was encouraged to act on them - and the consequence was that the assassination attempt failed.

 

But the episode makes it very clear that the visions cause Ahsoka to become increasingly anxious and paranoid and that this interferes with her ability to clearly see the future and determine the correct course of action. Only when she clears her mind and calms down is she able to act rationally and prevent the calamity from occurring. In fact, that's the moral of the episode:

"The future has many paths – choose wisely."

If Ahsoka had acted unwisely and with a mind clouded by emotion and anxiety, she could have ended up making things exponentially worse. Just as Anakin did in ROTS, and just as Luke was at risk of doing in TESB.

 

Says who?

 

I'm not. I'm just going by what the film-makers have communicated to us through the dialogue. Your pulling plot points out of thin air.

I admit am not exactly "excited" to understand the viewpoint of someone who thinks Obi-Wan Kenobi was racist against Anakin Skywalker.

He can sense danger around Padme.

Then you find the Force fickle?

Anakin was quite mindful, calm, and seemed to meditate on the matter for some time before coming to his conclusion. The actions of the true Jedi. Where he went "wrong" was slaughtering a bunch of helpless savages.

For 1000 generations the Jedi were guardians of peace and justice in the old Republic.

 

"Careful you must be when sensing the future, Anakin."

The fact that in TESB Yoda tells Luke that the future is always in motion and that, as a result, his actions may result in the complete opposite outcome from that which he desires.

The events that transpire in the Mortis arc of TCW, and the Father's words on the matter.

This is a basic and recurring theme in Star Wars, and, for that matter, in the Western literary tradition in general. Divination is dangerous; prophecy is fraught with unforeseen consequences. Weird that a certain subset people somehow miss these things completely.

 

That doesn't say it's unnatural. It just says be careful. Not the same thing. The fact that Yoda is so ready to oblige Luke when he asks him to see if his friends dying, but for it being unclear, tells you it's not so abhorrent to try and use the force in this way.

The problem is not the impulse to respond to the visions. That impulse is correct according to Lucas. It's Luke's willingness to interrupt his training that is the problem.

In AOTC. Anakin doesn't have that problem. The assassin he's supposed to be protecting Padme from is on Geonosis. And he sees his mother dying. It's not unclear.

 

The impulse is correct only if you're able to detach yourself emotionally from your objective and approach the problem with a clear head. For instance, Luke's impulse to help his friends was correct, but the mindset with which he approached that objective was wrong. Unless he could detach himself emotionally from his objective and approach the problem rationally (i.e. realize that he wasn't ready to face Vader alone), he should never have gone in the first place.

Sensing the future is just as unnatural as defying the laws of gravity with your mind. These are obviously not normal things to do--this is magic. You are imposing your own will on that of the Force. That is why it is necessary for Jedi to have the clearest mind and a soul free of attachments. It's all about maintaining a balance between your own ego and the natural world.

In AOTC, Anakin absolutely has a problem. They don't know where the assassin is, what he knows, who he's working with, how many more agents he has, or what his tracking capabilities are. That's why they're hiding in a remote part of Naboo where Padme is on familiar turf, there's no one around to betray their presence, and interlopers can be detected from a mile away. It is absolutely not in the interests of his mission of protection to leave the safety of Naboo and take his charge to one of the most dangerous locations in the galaxy chasing after a nightmare.

 

These aren't pulled out of thin air. It's been established that Yoda taught all of the Jedi, for eight hundred years. There is documented evidence that this is the case. You don't want to believe it, that's fine. But don't tell me that it's all made up BS.

I miss-typed. I never said that he was racist. I said that he had an arrogant attitude towards individuals that he didn't see value in, during the missions that he and Qui-gon undertook. When Qui-gon said that he had much to learn about the Living Force, he's talking about being more charitable and sensitive to people like Jar Jar and Anakin.

And you miss the point, that his senses were not as finely tuned as he thought which was evident in Jango being able to kill Zam and he didn't sense the attack.

The Force isn't anything. It's people that are fickle. Anakin could have stayed behind if he made the choice to do so. Just as he makes the choice to go on his own accord. Same with when he is told to stay in the Temple, but chooses to leave. It's called choice. We all have a choice.

He was not mindful and calm. He was filled with emotional turmoil. Any other Jedi would sense it. But because no other Jedi is present, you don't see it. He was trying to meditate, but he wasn't do a good job at it either. He was still filled with turmoil over he duty to Padme and his loyalty to his mother. If he was a true Jedi, he would have not left Naboo at all and he would have contacted Obi-wan or the Temple for assistance.

Which has to do what with making choices? They both chose to become Jedi and both chose to stay within the Jedi Order, for as long as they did. And they both made the choice to turn to the dark side. Anakin also made a choice to turn away, while Ben chose to stay with it. No one forced them to do anything that they didn't want to do. Anakin's case in particular has him making choices based off of visions, but his choices are made emotionally rather than rationally. This was Lucas's point.

"It will be about how young Anakin Skywalker became evil and then was redeemed by his son. But it's also about the transformation of how his son came to find the call and then ultimately realize what it was. Because Luke works intuitively through most of the original trilogy until he gets to the very end. And it’s only in the last act—when he throws his sword down and says, “I’m not going to fight this”—that he makes a more conscious, rational decision. And he does it at the risk of his life because the Emperor is going to kill him. It’s only that way that he is able to redeem his father."

--George Lucas, Star Wars Trilogy VHS Box Set 2000.

 

Okay, I won't believe it. Wow, that was easy.

You miss-typed or you never said it?

This isn't relevant to his ability to sense danger around Padme while acting as her guard.

You mean forcing the Force to a ford of sorts?

Yes, he was.

This is not mutually exclusive to being mindful and calm.

Well for his actions they promoted him to Jedi Knight, so I guess you're wrong.

Have you ever heard the story of Darth Plagueis the Wise?

 

A bit of both. I mis-typed when I was replying in the other thread.

It is if he cannot sense Jango, or another assassin is following them and attacks.

Why not can the Dr. Seuss?

No, he wasn't because if he was, he wouldn't have left Naboo at all.

He became a Jedi Knight because he was given a rank that he didn't earn. He didn't take the trials and unlike Obi-wan and Luke, he failed his own personal test. It was practically a fake rank.

Plagueis didn't make him do anything either.

 

You half never said it, and half mis-typed?

Except he does.

That doesn't make sense. Being calm isn't limited to certain planets.

According to his peers and supervisors he earned it. So your opinion is quite meaningless in comparison. That's like saying Lebron James didn't deserve his MVPs.

Because speaking back to you in ridiculous non-sequiturs is my way of balancing out the universe.

A fake rank that is recognized and respected by all your peers and supervisors, but questioned by online trolls? What's the difference between that and a real rank?

Exar Kun.

 

You half never said it, and half mis-typed?

Except he does.

That doesn't make sense. Being calm isn't limited to certain planets.

According to his peers and supervisors he earned it. So your opinion is quite meaningless in comparison. That's like saying Lebron James didn't deserve his MVPs.

Because speaking back to you in ridiculous non-sequiturs is my way of balancing out the universe.

A fake rank that is recognized and respected by all your peers and supervisors, but questioned by online trolls? What's the difference between that and a real rank?

Exar Kun.

 

Right.

Anakin sensed the Kouhuns and only right before they attacked. He foresaw where Zam was going to be at when he dived out the speeder. But he didn't sense Jango when he went to shoot Zam with the Kyber Saber Dart. Meaning that his senses were not as finely attuned as Obi-wan pointed out and that could make all the difference if he isn't able to protect her.

I never said that. I said that if he was completely calm and thinking rationally, he wouldn't have gone off of Naboo and gone to Tatooine. He would have contacted the Jedi Council or Obi-wan and asked for their assistance.

It isn't my opinion. It is a fact that Anakin was only made a Jedi Knight because they needed as many field Jedi who were either Masters or Knights, in order to lead the Clone Army and the Republic's forces. Anakin was an experienced Padawan who was only given the rank of Knight because of a technicality and not because he proved that he was ready to advance. And he didn't earn the rank of Jedi Knight because he killed the Tusken Raiders, still had attachment issues, was secretly married and had not learned to master his emotions.

I like that I'm called a troll for pointing out the facts.

The difference is that to be a Jedi, you either have to pass the trials like most of the Jedi did. Or prove that you have mastered your emotions in a confrontation with the Sith like Obi-wan, Kanan and Luke. Obi-wan proved it when he let go of his attachment to Qui-gon and defeated Maul without using the dark side. Kanan proved it when he told the Jedi Temple Guard/Grand Inquisitor that he would train Ezra the best that he can and accept whatever may happen to him. Luke proved it when he refused to kill Vader out of revenge and a desire to protect his sister, and lets go of his attachment to them.

 

Wait, so you half never said it, and half mis-typed?

He sensed the what now?

That wasn't an attack on Padme, or in her vicinity at all.

But he was able to protect her, with pinpoint precision.

Being calm doesn't mean you can't space travel.

He already did. They literally (okay figuratively) told him to ignore the Force.

It is by the time of ROTS Anakin Skywalker is a fully realized Jedi Knight. No one in the film disputes this.

No one in the film states this.

No one in the film says this.

Says you. But according to his peers he did. Apparently he mastered his emotions just enough to hide them from the entire Jedi Order.

You're right. I'm sorry. You're not a troll, you're a gentleman.

Or just do whatever it was Anakin did. This is outlined quite well in CW microseries.

He did touch the dark side, he fought with anger and it almost cost him his life.

Never heard of them but sounds interesting. (removed) - do not "mini-mod" /heels

And Anakin proved it off-screen I guess.

 

Obi-Wan did not succeed through the letting go of his attachment to Qui-Gon. He is immediately grief-stricken, bpanicked and making all kinds of regretful promises by his dying Master's side after killing Maul.

Didn't look like letting go to me.

 

Obi-wan feels Qui-gon's loss, but he lets go of him. He isn't regretting that he failed to save Qui-gon from Maul. He isn't obsessed with becoming all powerful. He doesn't complain about being held back. He isn't panicked when he agrees to train the boy, nor does he ever express regretting that he was trained. He makes a very clear and conscious decision to fulfill that wish.

The creatures that were going to kill Padme. Both Jedi don't sense them until just before they strike, when they should have sensed them before then.

The point is that it was an attack that he missed all together. The Jedi's abilities are diminishing as the dark side grows stronger. He has no guarantee that if he leaves for Tatooine, that his ability to sense Jango or anyone else will come through for him.

Swinging a Lightsaber against some Kouhuns is not the same as fending off Mandalorian bounty hunter, or a group of assassins.

I never said that. You're missing the point. Anakin didn't have to be the one to save his mother. Obi-wan or Mace could have done that.

1. He did not contact anyone when he left for Tatooine.

2. Obi-wan did not tell him to ignore the Force. He told him that dreams pass in time, which is what they both think it is that he's having. They don't see them as visions of the moment, or of the future. Anakin doesn't realize it until he goes to Tatooine and finds out that they're visions.

He has the rank and privileges of Jedi, but he isn't really a Jedi. He never took the trials and he never confronted the dark side within himself and rejected it.

As noted in Chapter 21, they only start to consider him for promotion because many Jedi Knights were dying and they needed more. And Obi-wan also states that they should forego the trials promote him, knowing full well that there was still a risk with him.

But Anakin did not. He used it for revenge and then kept coming back to it. That's the point. Obi-wan faced himself and saw what he was in danger of becoming. Anakin did not do that. Luke faces himself the same way that Obi-wan did and did as he did, which was acknowledge it and then let go of it.

He proves himself to be a Jedi when he lets go of his attachments and does as a Jedi should.

 

I thought he was blinded by arrogance?

Why? it's never established that Jedi can sense all creature in a given area.

so far his close attachment to Padme has allowed him to sense danger around her. There are no guarantees on life, you just play the odds.

I disagree. All 3 situations call for lightsaber swinging.

Obi-Wan didn't care about his mother, he had already told Anakin to ignore his visions. Mace Windu likely also did not care; and was much further away from the Outer Rim.

He had told Obi-Wan about the situation regarding his mother. Obi-Wan's solution was to ignore it. Like a Jedi have NEVER had a vision of something real happening before?

Most powerful Jedi in the history of the order is having visions about the suffering of his mother, who happens to be a slave on a savage warlord ruled planet. Yeah definitely just a dream.

Anakin Skywalker was a Jedi Knight, and by the end of TCW had a seat on the Jedi Council.

Because he already experienced REAL trials in the war.

Anakin Skywalker was a Jedi Knight.

As displayed by the films, he was a Jedi Knight.

 

• As far as lightsaber swinging, yeah, and we should applaud that Anakin is so skilled with it that he can eliminate two small bugs on Padmé’s bed without also maiming her.

• Wait, he had a seat on the council at the end of TCW? Then...why do we see him only just getting the seat in ROTS?

 

I think what was meant in this case was the era, rather than the TV series.

 

He is. He made a choice to fulfill the dying wish of Qui-gon and was arrogant enough to think that he had to be the one to do it, even after the Council decides to allow the training to be sanctioned. That he could do as well as Yoda.

The Jedi can sense all living creatures. They can sense the Force surrounding inanimate objects like droids and rocks. The Force is everywhere and any disturbance in the Force that is significant would catch their attention.

The smart Jedi knows to not put people at unnecessarily risk. His attachment isn't why he sensed the Kouhuns since Obi-wan sensed them as well. His attachment isn't why he didn't sense Jango's attack on Zam. Emotional connections aren't required to sense attacks.

They're all different situations. Kouhuns cannot fight back like a Mandalorian can. They cannot use blasters and give Jedi a hard time.

Obi-wan did care about Shmi, because according to you, he's an exceptional Jedi. And that's a pretty big assumption that Mace didn't care. Nor that he couldn't fly there quickly to help.

Anakin told him that he had been having dreams about Shmi. He never said that he was seeing her in pain. It is only with his nightmare on Naboo, that he is able to see her clearly and sense that she is suffering and in pain.

OBI-WAN: "You look tired."

ANAKIN: "I don't sleep well anymore."

OBI-WAN: "Because of your mother?"

ANAKIN: "I don't know why I keep dreaming about her."

OBI-WAN: "Dreams pass in time."

ANAKIN: "I'd much rather dream about Padme."


No cause for alarm.


PADME: "You had another nightmare last night."

ANAKIN: "Jedi don't have nightmares."

PADME: "I heard you."

ANAKIN: "I saw my mother. She is suffering, Padme. I saw her as clearly as I see you now. She is in pain."


Cause for alarm.

He was a Jedi Knight, but he did not pass the important Jedi trial which is what Oppo Rancisis stated in Chapter 21. He did not face himself and thus the dark side within him. Obi-wan did when he fought Maul and Luke does as well when fighting Vader. Those other trials were of combat, not character. Anakin does not face himself the way the other Jedi did. He doesn't do so until he is sparred by Luke. When he killed the Tusken Raiders, he had failed himself and failed to become a Jedi.

And as to the Council, that was an appointment made by Palpatine. It was only allowed by the Council because they wanted to use him against Palpatine. Not because he had earned it.

 

Because the war is still occurring in ROTS, when he gets his seat. It doesn't end until the last 30mins of the movie.

Wait, so he was blinded by arrogance but also clear and conscious? AND you mis-typed but also never said it? I'm getting dizzy here.

Anakin was able to sense danger around Padme.

Play the odds.

They're sneaky. That's a challenge in itself.

"They'll never get there in time to save him they have to come halfway across the galaxy."

That's funny, he never shows it.

If he doesn't sleep well, something is wrong in the dream. The mere thought of his mother isn't what stops him from sleeping.

I don't know about TCW, but in the microseries, he did. It was awesome.

He had a seat on the Council.

 

Yes. It's not one or the other.

So far.

What happens when his luck runs out?

What?

And he was closer and couldn't save her either.

How?

He doesn't sleep well because he keeps waking up. He isn't seeing her in pain. He sees something that disturbs him, but he cannot see all of it. Not until the end.

No, he didn't. He saw himself as Vader on Nelvana. Just as he saw himself as Vader on Mortis. Both times, he embraced the darkness. Not rejected it. If he had faced himself, he would have not become Vader.

A manufactured position. Not one that he earned.

 

From the AOTC Novelization:


Prelude

His mind absorbed the scene before him, so quiet and calm and… normal. It was the life he had always wanted, a gathering of family and friends-he knew that they were just that, though the only one he recognized was his dear mother.
This was the way it was supposed to be. The warmth and the love, the laughter and the quiet times. This was how he had always dreamed it would be, how he had always prayed it would be. The warm, inviting smiles. The pleasant conversation. The gentle pats on shoulders.
But most of all there was the smile of his beloved mother, so happy now, no more a slave. When she looked at him, he saw all of that and more, saw how proud she was of him, how joyful her life had become.
She moved before him, her face beaming, her hand reaching out for him to gently stroke his face. Her smile brightened, then widened some more. Too much more. For a moment, he thought the exaggeration a product of love beyond normal bounds, but the smile continued to grow, his mother's face stretching and contorting weirdly.
She seemed to be moving in slow motion then. They all did, slowing as if their limbs had become heavy.
No, not heavy, he realized, his warm feelings turning suddenly hot. It was as if these friends and his mother were becoming rigid and stiff, as if they were becoming something less than living and breathing humans. He stared back at that caricature of a smile, the twisted face, and recognized the pain behind it, a crystalline agony.
He tried to call out to her, to ask her what she needed him to do, ask her how he could help.
Her face twisted even more, blood running from her eyes. Her skin crystallized, becoming almost translucent, almost like glass. Glass! She was glass! The light glistened off her crystalline highlights, the blood ran fast over her smooth surface. And her expression, a look of resignation and apology, a look that said she had failed him and that he had failed her, drove a sharp point straight into the helpless onlooker's heart.
He tried to reach out for her, tried to save her. Cracks began to appear in the glass. He heard the crunching sounds as they elongated.
He cried out repeatedly, reached for her desperately. Then he thought of the Force, and sent his thoughts there with all his willpower, reaching for her with all his energy.
But then, she shattered.

The Jedi Padawan jumped to a sitting position in his cot on the starship, his eyes popping open wide, sweat on his forehead and his breath coming in gasps. A dream. It was all a dream.
He told himself that repeatedly as he tried to settle back down on the cot.
It was all a dream.
Or was it?
He could see things, after all, before they happened.
"Ansion!" came a call from the front of the ship, the familiar voice of his Master.
He knew that he had to shake the dream away, had to focus on the events at hand, the latest assignment beside his Master, but that was easier said than done.
For he saw her again, his mother, her body going rigid, crystallizing, then exploding into a million shattered shards. He looked up ahead, envisioning his Master at the controls, wondering if he should tell all to the Jedi, wondering if the Jedi would be able to help him. But that thought washed away as soon as it had crossed his mind. His Master, Obi-Wan Kenobi, would not be able to help. They were too involved in other things, in his training, in minor assignments like the border dispute that had brought them so far out from Coruscant.
The Padawan wanted to get back to Coruscant, as soon as possible. He needed guidance now, but not the kind he was getting from Obi-Wan. He needed to speak with Chancellor Palpatine again, to hear the man's reassuring words. Palpatine had taken a great interest in him over the last ten years, making sure that he always got a chance to speak with him whenever he and Obi-Wan were on Coruscant.
The Padawan took great comfort in that now, with the terrible dream so vivid in his thoughts. For the Chancellor, the wise leader of all the Republic, had promised him that his powers would soar to previously unknown heights, that he would become a power even among the powerful Jedi. Perhaps that was the answer. Perhaps the mightiest of the Jedi, the mightiest of the mighty, could strengthen the fragile glass.
"Ansion," came the call again from the front. "Anakin, get up here!"


And after the assassination attempt, when they are guarding a sleeping Padme:


"You look tired," Obi-Wan said to Anakin in the adjoining room. The Padawan, still standing, opened his eyes and came out of his meditative trance. He took a moment to register the words, and then gave a little shrug, not disagreeing. "I don't sleep well anymore."
That was hardly news to Obi-Wan. "Because of your mother?" he asked.
"I don't know why I keep dreaming about her now," Anakin answered, frustration coming through in his voice. "I haven't seen her since I was little."
"Your love for her was, and remains, deep," Obi-Wan said. "That is hardly reason for despair."
"But these are more than…" Anakin started to say, but he stopped and sighed and shook his head. "Are they dreams, or are they visions? Are they images of what has been, or do they tell of something that is yet to be?"
"Or are they just dreams?" Obi-Wan said, his gentle smile showing through his scraggly beard. "Not every dream is a premonition, some vision or some mystical connection. Some dreams are just… dreams, and even Jedi have dreams, young Padawan."
Anakin didn't seem very satisfied with that. He just shook his head again.
"Dreams pass in time," Obi-Wan told him. "I'd rather dream of Padme," Anakin replied with a sly smile. "Just being around her again is… intoxicating."
Obi-Wan's sudden frown erased both his and Anakin's smiles. "Mind your thoughts, Anakin," he scolded in no uncertain tone. "They betray you. You've made a commitment to the Jedi Order, a commitment not easily broken, and the Jedi stand on such relationships is uncompromising. Attachment is forbidden." He gave a little derisive snort and looked toward the sleeping Senator's room. "And don't forget that she's a politician. They're not to be trusted."


So it does seem like Obi-Wan knows that Anakin's dreams worry him and that he fears they might be Visions Of The Future.