PT Why didn't the Republic have an army?

The point is that the Jedi are not politicians. They're keepers of the peace. It is the job of the Senate to make or break policy and it is the duty of the Jedi to help when necessary. The Jedi were not created to be a political institution.

There's local security which Anakin feels was more than sufficient to handle protection from assassination attempts and then there's the Jedi which goes beyond that. The Jedi are the FBI to the Republic.

Except for the Republic during the war.

Yes, local armies. But those are for individual worlds. The Senate needs to approve of the Military Creation Act, which would then be used to create a massive army from those smaller security forces. This is why during the Clone Wars, the Jedi and the Clone Army were assisted by warriors like the Gungan Army and resistance fighters like Saw Gerrera who lead the Onderon resistance and Cham Syndulla, who lead the Twi'lek's on Ryloth. The Jedi could help the Twi'lek's, but they would be severely overpowered against the Droid Army. But with the Clonetroopers, they were able to make a difference.

In fact, that was Palpatine's whole political campaign. He would be a strong leader who would cut through all the red tape and get things done. This is why the people started to cheer him on when he was given Emergency Powers and additional executive powers, because he was able to bypass the Senate and make decisions such as where and when things are done.

 

Well if the clone wars is what you would call "guarding peace".

 

The Jedi were keepers of the peace before the war. It doesn't have to be spelt out onscreen, it is obvious from what we see in TPM that the Jedi have been guardians of peace for some time. It is an element to the mythisism of it all that before the Clone wars the Republic had a 1000 years of relative peace. The problems that are arising are putting pressure on the Jedi, and making them consider compromising their ideals, to protect the Republic in war.

 

It's not like the Jedi never got involved in minor disputes, similar to the Battle of Naboo. The problem was that the Jedi were not meant to be a full blown military force like the Clone Army or the Rebel Army. We know that the Jedi's skills were sufficient in small scale situations. They just couldn't go full bore on their own. In the days leading into the Clone Wars, the Jedi were trying to keep peace which one example was the boarder dispute on Ansion that Anakin and Obi-wan had resolved. But with the threat of war, the Republic had to start considering alternatives which was the whole point of the Military Creation Act.

 

Because it wasn't handy?

 

Except that the dialogue in the movie continually remarks that everything that's happening , including Jedi involvement is unusual. This kind of "minor incident" is so rare that nobody gives it any credibility and sending the Jedi is considered a prematurely bold move etc.

 

I'd argue the scale to which it escalated was unusual for the peaceful period of the Republic, but, granted, I didn't follow the EU.

 

Except it doesn't. The Jedi-involvement is considered odd because it doesn't come on the order of the senate but from the chancellor. The chancellor overstepped his authority by sending the Jedi, hence the Jedi not appearing in front of the senate to confirm what Palpatine and Padme were saying, as that would have meant letting everyone know that the chancellor went over the heads of the senate. That's why Darth Sidious was so interested in getting rid of them. The Jedi weren't supposed to be there, as the senate didn't order them to investigate (likely caused by his manipulations). With the chancellor side-stepping his attempt to keep the Jedi out of it, he feels forced to remove them from the equation again because they are a threat to his plans.

As darth-sinister mentions above, AOTC proves that missions like that are in fact the job of the Jedi - when authorized by the senate - by mentioning that Obi Wan and Anakin just returned from dealing with a border dispute on Ansion.

The Republic not having a real army beyond local security forces, and the Jedi acting as mediators and guardians of the Republic fits perfectly. There isn't the tiniest hole in the whole issue.

 

It's the chancellor that tells the Jedi to look after Padme in AOTC. The senate is not involved.

If it was the normal thing for Jedi to go to incidents like the Naboo blockade then why is nobody in the senate questioning their non-involvement from the start and still not sending them after Amidala's appearance in the chamber?

 

1) Not once is it said or implied that Valorum over-stepped his authority when he sent the Jedi.
The ONLY thing the film says is that he sent them without asking the senate.
But "secret" =/= "illegal"
So if that was against the rules, law or what-ever, is not made clear.

But what is clear is that IF the Jedi had been able to settle the dispute with the TF and have the blockade removed, their involvement would have become known. Either the senate would ask how come the blockade is gone and Nute would not have any reason to hide that two jedi were there.
So Valorum knew that the senate would eventually find out about what he did and he was apparently fine with that.
Now that he knows that things are so much worse, war has broken out, him not calling the Jedi or Padme not once suggesting it, makes no sense.
And we see in AtoC that the chancellor can send the Jedi on missions, even without asking the senate.

As for Sidious, even IF the senate had sent the Jedi, I would think he would have done the same thing.
Kill them and move on with the invasion.
He could not risk Nute talking to the Jedi as he knew that Nute was not brave and might cave and his whole plan was ruined.

2) About these "local forces"
If there was a massive attack on the republic, would these local forces be called to help in the defense of the republic?
If yes, then why doesn't either Mace or Dooku mention them when talking about a possible/planned attack on the republic?
The most likely explanation is that they either don't exist or are so small that they don't matter.
If no, how does that even begin to make sense?
It would be like saying that if the whole of Europe was attacked, the armies of France and England would not fight.

Also, in AotC, Nute is astonished that the Jedi have gathered up an army of 200 000 soldiers.
If these local forces exist, if 200 000 is a huge army and not something that could be gathered quickly, how small are they then?

3) The "smaller issues" that the Jedi normally deal with.
If they are still on the verbale stage, posturing, arguments etc. Then the Jedi acting as mediators makes sense.
But if things have gone all the way to a shooting war, what can the Jedi do then?
Say that five systems starts to fight and say one million soldiers are involved and 50 battle-ships.
Can the Jedi alone stop that?
Now if there are local defense armies and fleets that can aid the Jedi, fine.
But again, I refer you to 2).
And the whole point of the army debate at the start of AotC is to have something that can help the Jedi.

Of course this can be made to make sense if armed conflicts NEVER happen.
That even small scale battles between systems just don't happen, ever.
So the jedi won't ever be called upon to fight in wars as they never happen.
Yes the films says that there hasn't been a large scale war for a very long time but what about wars between systems?
Even a war with just three star systems, that is still quite big.

And we know that private armies exist. The TF have a "battle-hardened" army.
The cloners on Kamino have made armies in the past. Have they ever seen action?
The logical answer would be yes, but if small scale wars has happened and either local armies and fleets exist or some of the republic worlds have armies big enough for operations outside of their system and have used them to aid the republic, then those forces would be a factor in both Mace's and Dooku's dialogue.
And yet they never say a word about them.

And in AotC, when the senate has heard about the seps big army and they conclude that they mean to attack. There is still debate and apparently the senate won't approve the clone army fast enough.
Ok, but if these local armies and fleets exist, use them instead.
If the senate has done this in the past, what is the problem?
Use them and then debate the clone army later.
Unless the clone army is ALL they have.
Which the film implies.

Bye for now.
The Guarding Dark

 

Unlike Valorum in TPM, Palpatine isn't mired by accusations of scandal and corruption. That's why Valorum has to secretly dispatch the Jedi in TPM, whereas Palpatine can do so openly in AOTC. The point is that Valorum is being held on a very tight leash by the Senate in TPM but, as the opening crawl states, secretly takes action while the Senate is still embroiled in deliberations about what to do. It's not that the Chancellor doesn't have the nominal power to send Jedi on missions; it's extremely doubtful that Valorum out-and-out violated the law. The problem is a scandal-ridden chancellor deliberately going over the head of the Senate without consulting them.

When it comes to AOTC, you can easily imagine that Palpatine filed a routine notice to the Senate and it was approved without controversy. At that point in time for that particular chancellor, there's no reason it would be a big deal.

I would point out that it actually seems like it's not a normal thing to do, simply because dealing with trade disputes like this is seen as below a Jedi's pay-grade, even if it is a particularly turbulent one. That's why the Neimoidians are totally unfazed by the arrival of ambassadors but, along with Sidious, taken completely by surprise to learn that they're Jedi. It seems Valorum alone recognized the larger import of the crisis and that it could very easily snowball out of control into something much larger before all was through. Thus, he made the bold decision to send Jedi in to nip the whole thing in the bud. But to most outside observers, the Jedi never should have been there. It was overkill.

But that doesn't mean minor issues like this are rare. It just means minor issues like this usually aren't urgent enough to demand intervention by the Jedi. The galaxy is clearly a pretty peaceful place before Episode I, all things considered. I'm not sure how any of this supports your point.

 

The blockade isn't considered unusual by Qui-gon. But invading the planet and trying to force a treaty signing, along with trying to kill the Jedi ambassadors, was unusual. That's why he says that Nute's actions don't make sense and something else is behind it.

Protection from assassination isn't considered unorthodox for the Jedi and does not require Senate approval. Intervening in a matter such as the Naboo blockade was problematic because Valorum was mired in scandal and the Senate consider it something that was only important to deal with, if they found just cause to intervene and then if necessary, petition the Jedi for assistance.

They don't know that the Jedi went to Naboo. They never testify and Padme never gets to the point of bringing them in.

Again, that's what the Military Creation Act is about and why it was intensely debated in the Senate. It would create an army from local security forces and from the military academies, where people like Tarkin and Yurlean came from.

Not just having two hundred thousand, but having them trained and fully equipped for battle. Even going so far as to have top of the line armor and weapons. They know that the MCA has not been passed yet and with Padme on Naboo, there's no way that it could.

Ten thousand Jedi could.

That's if there is a full scale war, across many systems. Watch ROTS. You've got battles on Kashyyyk, Utapau, Boz Pity, Mygeeto, Cato Neimoidia, Felcuia and other worlds. Almost all going on at once. Ten thousand Jedi could not cover all those worlds at once.

Big, but not impossible. Ten thousand systems, on other hand, is a whole different matter.

Because they cannot be utilized without the Military Creation Act.

Same deal. They need to agree to go to war and the Senate cannot do that. They need to agree to create an army and to use local militias.

 

This discussion surprises me a lot, taking in consideration the fact that we live in a world where:

-private military forces (in fact armies) exist and anybody ca hire them if the respective part has enough money to pay them ( yes, there are such forces in USA and it is not forbidden to exist, no matter that USA has its own army). Almost the same case of the private armies of TF.

- a big entity which is practically federation exists and it doesn't have its own army. Is called The European Union and while the different countries there have their own forces (as Naboo has it) there is no EU Army. I thought this fact is widely known, well... And is not because EU doesn't need the Army: the closest war is like on the other side of the sea (the civil war in Libya is not over yet, not to mention Syria which is not so far either.. oh, well, I forgot Ukraine). It just doesn't have it, for series of reasons, mostly historical and political, but that is another topic to discuss, my point is that these are real facts. So I honestly don't understand why they could look unrealistic??? Of course, is not that Lucas has the gift of foresight, is just this is not the first case in the humane history, it repeats itself indeed.

 

So how can people here say that it's usual for the Jedi to get involved in such blockades when the film tells us that the Chancellor has to secretly send Jedi, and the senate somehow doesn't agree that such a thing as this blockade to could be happening (let alone the invasion) it's so unusual, and the Senate don't advise taking the usual step of officially sending Jedi to this kind of minor dispute/incident which they apparently always get involved in?

So you say. Similar to the Jedi dealing with minor disputes like the the Naboo blockade, except that TPM tells us differently, and the bold move by the Chancellor to get them involved is considered unusual. If it's not unorthodox, why does Palpatine suggest it like he's just had a brainwave?

An utterly perverse contrivance. Even more bizarre that the one who suffers most from this state of affairs is the one most opposed to the changes proposed in the next film to combat such inefficiency.

It is not the Chancellor who decides. It is the senate who dictates what the Jedi do. Perhaps that so that the Jedi's involvement in things is not hamstrung or compromised by the popularity or otherwise of the executive.

We're justifying Valorum's unorthodoxy at circumventing the senate (does the Chancellor need to ask the senate if they are allowed to go do what they usually do?) in order to send the Jedi to do what they are supposed to be doing anyway, and explaining Palpatine's direct enlistment of the Jedi with that Chancellor's squeaky clean reputation and the fact that it's something that Jedi do normally anyway.

It seems also that Senate consensus must reached for the Jedi to even investigate reports of minor disputes. So investigating minor disputes is clearly not as routine as is being made out. The window of opportunities that Jedi have for guarding peace and justice gets narrower all the time. And the reason? Because the plot of TPM and AOTC has to be upheld as, not just a credible one, but the only possible course of events. It is complete and utter nonsense. If the Jedi are supposed to be the FBI in this Republic, imagine if the FBI had to get congress approval to begin an investigation on a case to case basis.

 

Once again, Valorum has been mired in a scandal. A lot of his political decisions have come under scrutiny by the Senate. He cannot openly send the Jedi to deal with the blockade, without going through the Senate. And the Senate has certain guidelines for when the Jedi could be granted permission to get involved, which at this point, has not been met. Also, you've got Palpatine who has been allying himself with certain senators who will continue to bog down the Senate in procedures.

Palpatine isn't mired in a scandal.

Padme did have to fight to free Naboo, but she was more in favor of the Senate taking care of things through negotiations and diplomacy, rather than going straight to war. She believes that the Separatist crisis can be resolved through negotiations over creating an army to fight a war. Having an army wouldn't have changed the fate of Naboo. Having the Senate get off their asses and get involved through the usual channels, was more acceptable to fighting.

The Chancellor was capable of sending Jedi out to handle certain diplomatic affairs, under normal circumstances. Valorum's final weeks in office were not normal.

This is the result of the Senate having certain rules and regulations, as to what role the Jedi can and cannot play in galactic affairs. The results of the Sith coming from the Jedi, which probably resulted in some of these regulations. And a Sith Lord who has manipulated events to go his way.

 

Wait, at what point did Star Wars fans decide that the Jedi were "the FBI" of the Republic? It's my understanding their role was very different.

 

When it became necessary to make stuff up to make the plot make sense.

 

I think AOTC was a contributor - in which we see Obi-Wan doing some investigating - going to Kamino and questioning a suspect, etc.

 

I was making a comparison. Local security would be the local law enforcement and the Jedi are like the FBI.

 

Except that the FBI does not mediate disputes in order to guard peace, and they do not require senate approval before conducting routine investigation that would be expected of them. And they never receive orders from individual politicians to allow them to investigate something that the senate might not agree is worth investigating.

 

But, if we go with your European Union example, if someone was planing an attack/conquest of Europe, would this someone only look at the fact that the EU has no army and thus think that an attack against all of Europe would then be easy peasy?
No, that would make no sense. Because ignoring the French army, British army, Spanish army, etc, that would get involved in an all out attack on Europe, is stupid. Not to mention the nuclear weapons that could come into play if a massive war breaks out.

But that is what AotC does, both Mace and Dooku paint the Republic as practically defenseless, only the jedi exist.
IF there are local armies or some planets in the republic have a large military, would not those things come into play if the Republic is ATTACKED?
Why would those forces just go "Oh look, we are being attacked, we could fight back but we are not going to."?
If the senate has, in the past, been able to give an order for some of these local armies to aid the Jedi in some smaller conflict and they have done so.
Why would that not happen now?
If all the senate needs is to say "The republic is under attack, we call upon all the local forces and planetary armies to fight to protect all of us."
And boom, the republic now has 10 million soldiers and 1000 battle ships at the ready.
Why is Mace and Dooku talking the way they do?

Is the idea that even when attacked, the senate won't do this simple thing?
Or that even if the senate does not, all those individual forces will just stand by while the seps attack them.
Remember, those systems are a part of the republic, if the republic is attacked/conquered or what ever, that will impact them.

But as far as AotC goes, 200 000 soldiers is a huge army. Sorry, on a galactic scale, that is pitiful.
And the republic gets 1,2 million clones and that is enough for them to go on an all-out war with the seps.
Again, for a galactic war, 1,2 million soldiers is VERY small.

The problem here is scale, an all-out galactic war, involving thousands of systems, the scale of it is HUGE.
The number of ships, soldiers etc is enormous and getting that across is hard.

Bye for now.
Blackboard Monitor

 

The existence of local forces isn't just speculation: an example is shown in the self defense forces of Naboo. That doesn't mean it wouldn't take time to organize them into a single cohesive army, nor that such an army drawn exclusively from local forces would be of sufficient strength to match the new armies of the CIS. Obviously if the Republic were attacked, the Senate would approve creation of a real army (in fact, they end up doing so before being attacked). But ordinarily this militarization couldn't happen instantly. It's only because of the existence of the clones that they are able to surprise the CIS.

As for why, if local forces exist, Dooku would be talking the way he does about his prospects for success of a surprise attack on the Republic, it's because he is counting on the fact that the Republic won't be able to muster a large enough and cohesive enough army quickly enough. A good historical comparison here would be the build-up of tensions between Caesar and Pompey just before Caesar crossed the Rubicon into Italy and started the civil war. Caesar invaded with only a single legion, only a tiny fraction of the forces the republic under Pompey was theoretically capable of fielding against him. But he did so with such alacrity that Pompey didn't have enough time to properly organize, equip and train a force capable of matching Caesar's one legion, and in the end had to abandon all of Italy without even a fight. This might look extremely foolish in retrospect, and indeed it was a grave miscalculation by Pompey, but it's not like he literally had nobody at his disposal to defend Italy. It's just that there's a big difference between a functional army and a theoretical one. Organization, equipping, and training all take time. Dooku believes (speaking of his public persona here) that the Republic's theoretical army (that would have to be cobbled together quickly by the Jedi and whatever local forces could be recruited) would be no match to his functional one in a surprise attack.

 

this is, excuse me, pure speculation from your part. No one in the movie ever said that the Republic is defenseless, even in the deleted scenes. Dooku said that the Jedi cannot stand against the armies of the Trade Federation and so on, so the Republic should accept the CIF conditions, that is completely different case. So, the Republic is unprepared for such situation (eventual big scale war) but with the clone army it would be.
And about the local armies in the European countries: do you really come with such explanation? I cannot believe that I should explain the obvious fact that for example, the French army cannot fight in Germany because this would be practically invasion... EU needs its own forces so they can operate in EU level and this is one of the reasons for it. The other one is comparable with the situation of the Galactic Republic: if one of the countries that are part of this federation wants to quit with all its local forces even with a price of a war, the only one that could oppose against its is the global army of the big entity. Otherwise it would the army of Naboo against this of Geonosis and so on and so far. So, no, the local forces cannot act as substitute of global army.

 

First, the Naboo only had security volunteers and they said flat out that they will be of no use against the TF army.

Second, I think that you might have misunderstood me.
People here and in other threads have argued that there are a number of existing armies in the republic.
That some systems have considerable standing armies. System A has a standing army of 300 000 soldiers, system B has an army of 500 000 soldiers, systems C has 100 000 and so on.
And this is actual armies, not cops or guards.
And that there are also sector fleets. Warships and soldiers that are assigned various sectors in the republic. To deal with armed threats and the like.

These forces have been used in the past, to assist the Jedi when there have been smaller conflicts.
But this would require a senate approval first.

Now I am talking about what these people are proposing, that there exist a number of ready ARMIES in the republic.
Now we know that the TF had a big army and several of the other people in the seps apparently had their own armies. But are there any of those that are still loyal to the republic and have their own army?
I am asking that if this is so, why are those armies and fleets not relevant to either Mace or Dooku?
And if so, why is Nute so surprised that the republic, that still has many thousands of systems, had assembled an army of 200 000 soldiers?
If all it takes is one senate vote and now all those armies can act.

[/QUOTE]

Except it is not just Dooku, Mace says pretty much the same thing.
And at that point, the seps was just several hundreds of systems, not the thousands we hear about later.
And Mace had no idea about the big army that Dooku had put together.

And yet Mace says that there are not enough Jedi to PROTECT the republic.
As in, in the event of a seps attack, the Jedi can't stop them.
No mention at all of sector fleets, planetary armies etc.
And again, at Geonosis, the republic had 200 000 soldiers. That is not a whole lot on a planetary scale, much less on a galactic one.
The combined armies of Earth is several million. And yet the seps were quite surprised that they had that many.
Say that 100 000 systems that are still loyal to the republic, if they contributed just 100 soldiers each, which is nothing for a whole planet, that army is 10 million soldiers.

And this has also been talked about before, in the whole clone war, was it just Jedi and clones that fought?
The republic had 1,2 million clones at the end of AotC. They could get more but that would take time.
So was the whole war just fought by 2-3 million clones plus the Jedi?
The films don't say.
Yes we see wookies fight on their planet but is the clone army supplemented by other armies?
Order 66 kind of relies on there being just clones in the republic army.
If there were 3 million clones and 30 million regular soldiers. Then Order 66 is less likely to be that effective.
Some Jedi might not have any clones with them. Or if the clones suddenly start to kill the Jedi, the other soldiers might try to kill the clones.

Except Mace pretty much says that the republic has nothing but the Jedi to protect it.
And as I said above, the seps were much smaller as far as Mace knew at the time and he didn't know about the new army that Dooku was building.
And yet, even against that, the Jedi could not protect the republic.

Second, in WW2 British soldiers fought on French soil. So your idea that soldiers from one nation can not fight on another nations soil is wrong.
So if France, England, Germany etc, were faced with an enemy that is attacking ALL of Europe and wants to conquer all of it, their armies will very much be relevant.
NATO has a founding principle of a mutual defense clause, that an attack on one is an attack on all of them. And NATO partly relies on the armies of the individual members.

Third, as I said above, people have argued that local armies have aided the Jedi in the past, that sector fleets with ships and soldiers exist.
Ex, if they do not. Take TPM, suppose that the senate had believed Padme about the TF attacking and invading Naboo. And they said to the TF, "Let Naboo go!" And the TF said "Make us!"
Did the senate have ANY armed forces it could use to fight the TF army?
And the TF did have an army, a battle hardened one at that.
Were the Jedi the ONLY armed force the republic could deploy?

Lastly, if one system in the republic wants to leave, why would there be a war?
Are systems not ALLOWED to leave? How does that work?
Is the army vote at the start of AotC designed to make an army to keep the seps in the republic BY FORCE?

Bye for now.
Blackboard Monitor

 

Armies and security forces.

Obviously they were as we come to see across the war, with the examples I listed earlier.

Because they're not organized into a single fighting force. Any attack that's going to come against the Republic, will be aimed either directly at Coruscant or will attack worlds so far apart, that the Jedi won't be able to help defend them.

The Senate hasn't voted for the MCA yet. They're not aware of the Emergency Powers Act being initiated, nor are they aware that this is a Clone Army. This very act is what Dooku uses to rally the ten thousand systems to their cause, because the Republic used very questionable tactics to attack Geonosis.

We see that. Obi-wan tells Tion Middon that if he has any warriors, now is the time to deploy them against the Droid Army on Utapau. Just like the Geonosian warriors also assisted on Geonosis during the first and second battles. There were also Mandalorian warriors that fought on Mandalore, Twi-lek's on Ryloth, Gungans on Naboo, Mon Calamari on Dac, etc. The Jedi were also able to get Toydaria to allow the Republic to be a staging ground for assaults and supply/relief efforts.

Order 66 worked because the clone were paired up with many Jedi and attacked them, much like what we see. We also see Utapau soldiers being marched into a holding camp by the Clonetroopers, when Obi-wan eavesdrops on Cody's giving order to find him. We saw Chewbacca and Tarfful were standing next to Yoda when he was about to be shot. As to the rest, well, you're right. Not all of the Jedi were killed right off the bat and were probably aided by those who were with the Jedi at the time, like we saw with Yoda. That's why the emergency beacon was activated at the Temple. To lure back the stragglers.

The Republic had a navy, which is why there were all those Republic cruisers that we see at Geonosis. It is the Republic Navy that turned out people like Tarkin and Yularen. They were often the ones who assisted the Jedi in these minor disputes and would have been used to force the Federation's blockade to be dispersed, if the Senate wasn't corrupt. The Navy grew in size as the war progressed.

Not just one system was leaving, but many were. The "negotiations" that Palpatine was engaging in was designed to keep those worlds in the Republic, but more and more incidences were occurring that involved violence and a greater threat of war, is what lead to the discussions of forming an army for the Republic. The army would assist the Jedi, if a full scale war broke out.