ST Mark Hamill (Luke Skywalker) in the ST

The point is that you have someone completely at your mercy who is apparently destined for evil. A sleeping person of any age is effectively as helpless as a baby.

It seems to get consistently ignored that Luke chose to try and sense Ben's future after a certain period of time in denial about his pupil's vulnerability to the darkside. So in that instant he saw the possible consequences of where he has failed already and instinctively sought to mitigate that failure. Since his presight does not include his role in Ben's eventual potential redemption, his fear is not sufficiently tempered to prevent the fateful gesture that ensures the fulfilment of his vision.

Why does he not fully disclose this? It is consistent with the backstory to his and his father's education to define it as a failure to be a good enough teacher. To acknowledge it as a consequence of the fear of failure as well, is not as easy an admission to make. Provided you even have that self awareness.

 

1. You're going massively off-piste. None of this is relevant to my original point. The fact is, Luke was an accomplished Jedi after ROTJ in canon. It's a minor part of my post and Luke's level of 'accomplishment as a Jedi' is not essential to the point of my post.

2. I've never ready any Legends/EU.

 

I think the original trilogy should be tweaked now to reflect what Lukes future will be. This is the vision luke should see in Empire [Removed]

haha

But in all seriousness i feel really bad with what they did to Luke's character. There are so many ways they could of advanced the story but we are back to square one. Rey is basically Luke. The first of the new Jedi. She is the 'new hope'. I want to get past this point and see what the new Jedi will be like. How would they get involved in galactic conflicts...would they get involved? We have this whole new trilogy thats just a remake of the old trilogy.

 

I think you’re arguing with the wrong person. Since we’re talking about Luke Skywalker, I totally agree with you. Like I said, I could understand where anyone besides Luke Skywalker might do this, although it would be wrong and a mistake for anyone in this context. Yes, sneaking into a sleeping young adult’s tent to raid his dreams with a weapon is absolutely the wrong thing to do... but especially for someone like Luke, who is (supposed to be) a wise, compassionate Jedi that has learned these exact same lessons in far more dire circumstances. Anyone can make mistakes, but characters shouldn’t completely shed their skin without proper story to explain it in fiction.

As far as disclosing it to Rey, remember he hadn’t agreed to teach her to become a Jedi. He was essentially trying to get rid of her. He had no investment in her, and he had no obligation to be invested in her. Personally I think the fact that she was lying to him almost the entire time she was there about getting chummy with the villain desperate to kill him probably contributed to the gulf between them.

 

So he changed his mind because Rey touched Kylo's hand?

 

I think it’s that he changed his mind because he caught Rey sort of “conspiring with the enemy” behind his back. Now he doesn’t feel that he can trust her.

 

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This analogy makes no sense since Ben is not a terrorist when Luke tries to kill him in his sleep.

 

Given his penatence was isolating himself to die in an isand, I think that is a bit far considering what actually happened.

 

In what way, materially, did he make it worse?

What happened that wouldn't otherwise have happened?

 

We know from Bloodline that the First Order had not yet come out of hiding, when Kylo was 20-odd and with Luke. Had Luke, instead of going into hiding, gone to Leia's side and stayed with her, they might have been deterred from revealing themselves. It's clear from TFA that they fear Luke.

 

That isn't conveyed by the films which have the First Order looking for him just like the Resistance does.

The FO haven't been in hiding. They've been concealing their build up of weaponry.

If they have a weapon capable of destroying entire systems then all the FO needed to do was fire it at whichever system Skywalker, Leia and the Resistance are at.

 

The keylogger analogy is meant to be the real world Earth equivalent of what Luke has there. A keylogger takes keystrokes written down on a keyboard and holds them for someone to read later. So, it’s like a keylogger of conversations with the enemy and plotting mass terror; it’s just that Luke is experiencing it all himself in his mind.

What’s more, attempted murder cases typically involve situations where the accused was plotting to kill someone and the police stopped it prior and are then implying the act would have possibly occurred without them interfering. In the case of Luke, since he thought it and stopped himself seconds later, the specifics would likely only come up at all in an Earth court of law by the defence of Ben Solo, who’d be pushing self defence for the damage done to the Temple and for actually assuaulting Luke by tearing it down on him. That might work for Ben Solo on those charges but he’d still be facing charges for his actions against the other students.

Luke wouldn’t even be the one on trial. There would be nothing of significance to penalize Luke for and Luke’s own lawyer would argue the role the Jedi have played in the past as Police of the galaxy themselves, and pointed to his years of service as a hero and legend opposite the terrorist that Ben Solo would be at that time, which Luke had determined from the keylogger. Luke wouldn’t even be the one on trial at all because he stopped himself so it’s not like they’d even need to go as far as to bring in an expert on PTSD in veterans who’ve killed a lot and seen a lot of death and had a lot of trauma, which would have been another partial explanation for the brief moment of darkness within Luke.

 

A major difference from TFA to TLJ. Snoke is afraid of Luke in TFA. Hours later in TLJ he’s been transformed into an over-confident clone of Palpatine. Snoke in TFA is calculating and reserved. Snoke in TLJ has hissy fits and belittles people.

 

But they, Snoke and the FO are not hiding from Luke.

In TLJ, Snoke remarks how, by staying out of it and not drawing the FO to the resistance, Skywalker is wiser than he reckoned. But by then, the damage was done by Rey prematurely trusting her premonition and delivering herself to hers and any possible new Jedi order's doom. Any hope Luke may have had or anyone else had in Luke was about to be crushed by Kylo Ren, at Snoke's orders. Or so Snoke believes.

 

Snoke was mocking Luke. He found it amusing that Luke also thinks the Jedi should end, and said the FO would help him with that by going to Ahch-to and destroying the entire island.

 

Mocking his seemingly imminent doom. Not his wisdom at apparently conceding this fact and seeking a secret refuge in order to delay the inevitable. Like when Vader remarked that Obi-wan was wise to hide Leia. But now that her anonymity had been betrayed by Luke's feelings, Kenobi's failure was complete. Snoke is saying the same thing about Luke.

 

Strange tack to take.

I habve a better analogy.

If an armed intruder enters your home you're entitled to use reasonable force to defend yourself.

Ben could have killed Luke and gotten away with it (arguably even if he didn't even have a lightsaber raised).

If an armed intruder came into your house and pointed a gun at you, whether he planned to pull the trigger or not is irrelevant.

Then again, we're talking about a universe where slavery is openly permitted. Earthlike jurisprudence doesn't apply, surely?

 

The only thing he potentially thinks Luke is wise about is that the Jedi need to end--the dark side agrees. It had nothing to do with staying out of it.

 

But it had that effect. Therefore eliminating the threat that Snoke feared at the beginning of TFA of a new order of Jedi rising on Skywalker's return.

He's right about Skywalker not raising a new order of Jedi. But he was wrong about Luke not returning and the new Jedi rising as a result of the legend of his stance on Crait.

 

@Martoto77 I think I'm confused

 

I don't think it's a case of Snoke being inexplicably inconsistent in his fear and disdain of Luke Skywalker as an enemy across the two movies. His attitude evolves due to the changing circumstances and the added perspective on his absence provided by Rey's capture making him overconfident.

 

I think we might be talking about different things and I don't fully understand the initial debate.

Though one thing that comes to mind is that after Snoke realized Rey (not Luke) was Kylo's counterpart on the light side, I think his attitude towards Luke changed. Luke became the lesser threat and Rey the greater one.

That aside, the Jedi will still rise again in part because of Luke and his Crait appearance, so Snoke's initial fear came true.

 

I'm not really arguing with you. Snoke's mockery of Luke was initially raised in relation to the perception of Luke being inconsistently portrayed as a threat to Snoke and the FO.

 

What a great night for Mark. The comeback is complete!