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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

ST Daisy Ridley (Rey) in the ST

Discussion in 'Sequel Trilogy' started by Darth_Voider, Dec 17, 2015.

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  1. Vicarious Fan

    Vicarious Fan Jedi Master star 3

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    Jul 1, 2013
    yes and deamonzing a black kid shot by a cop is wrong and there is a special place in hell for those people but that is completely unrelated to the discussion.

    I would say there is never a "good" reason to become a mass murdering psychopath just that Kylo's reason is one that happens in the real world.
     
  2. oncafar

    oncafar Force Ghost star 6

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    Jan 10, 2017
    I asked a question?

    Obi-Wan technically let Maul off for killing Satine. I don't think he thinks of things in this way about "letting people off" or not. He's more interested in furthering the greater good, and to do that, he sets personal feelings aside. He's been trained in non-attachment, which is to say he doesn't attach much to his personal feelings anyway.

    I don't understand your point.
     
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2018
  3. Glitterstimm

    Glitterstimm Force Ghost star 6

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    Dec 30, 2017
    Luke was trained in Jedi traditions by Obi-Wan and Yoda, far more so than Rey who has received no training at all. I'd argue that Rey would need to base her compassion for Kylo on some belief system because otherwise her character becomes a series of coincidences all designed to serve the plot. She's a powerful force user, and she's in the right place at the right time to join the resistance, and she witnessed Kylo kill his father, and she's suddenly got as much compassion for Kylo as his own parents. We all understand the overarching themes of SW, but TLJ's poor writing is a failure to connect theme with narrative. Some don't care about such things and that's fine too.
     
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  4. oncafar

    oncafar Force Ghost star 6

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    Jan 10, 2017
    @Glitterstimm feeling for people isn't about a belief system.

    Yoda and Obi-Wan weren't training Luke to be compassionate in the movies. They seemed to be asking him to kill Vader. Luke decided not to, out of compassion for his father.
     
  5. Blastaar

    Blastaar Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Dec 25, 2015

    You brought up the real world. Don't say its unrelated just because you don't have anything to counter my point of view with.
     
  6. Vicarious Fan

    Vicarious Fan Jedi Master star 3

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    Jul 1, 2013
    ok... maybe i missunderstood but how is kids being demonized in the media after being shot by a cop have anything to do with Kylo Ren hating his parents?

    Also what is your point of view that you think i'm trying to counter?
     
  7. RandomGreyJ

    RandomGreyJ Jedi Master star 4

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    Jun 14, 2016
    @oncafar Maybe you misunderstood me. I never said Rey would NEVER feel compassion for Kylo again, but what I said was that I wouldn't understand why she'd want to give him another chance. And again, just because the novel suggests something doesn't mean that the next movie will follow through. Once more, refer to TFA novel regarding Finn's reaction to holding the lightsaber, and his hinted worthiness. One would think that the line was clear foreshadowing right? Doesn't seem that way judging from TLJ...

    As for what I meant before, I could see Rey having a sense of pity like one feels pity for a person who's far too lost in their own drug addiction. It's basically too late for them, and you have to end it, but that doesn't mean that part of you can't feel bad for them. But you also have to remember that this person (in THIS case) had every opportunity to turn away from their choice, and they had people who loved and supported them, which they rejected.

    Rey could feel this for Kylo at some point, but that doesn't mean that Kylo's gonna change. Hell, it would blow my mind if the other ST heroes (Finn and maybe Poe) found themselves feeling this to a lesser extent, just because Finn and Kylo are opposites, and he still made the right choice.

    Doesn't justify his actions or make him less of a monster though, but it's still sad in a sense (still won't top killmonger but oh well).

    There. Make more sense?
     
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2018
  8. Blastaar

    Blastaar Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Dec 25, 2015

    That kylo's "reasons" for turning to the darkside are still a mystery. Blaming everyone else is not a valid reason when trying to explain that character's backstory.
     
  9. Qui-Riv-Brid

    Qui-Riv-Brid Force Ghost star 5

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    Apr 18, 2013
    As a Jedi Knight and Master should. He also killed Maul for the same reason. Because it was the right thing to do.

    He also defeated Vader but didn't kill him for the same reasons.

    All the elements were there for Rey to be a failure and learn from it but instead it was framed as no failure for her but for Luke. It's nonsensical for Luke to be learning lessons while Rey doesn't and even if you are going to do that they at least make Luke learn from Rey as Rey learns from Luke. Instead Rey learns nothing from Luke and Luke learns nothing from Rey.
     
  10. oncafar

    oncafar Force Ghost star 6

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    Jan 10, 2017
    @RandomGreyJ I wasn't really arguing regarding any foreshadowing in the novel (in terms of X is certain to happen--it's the opposite). But the novelization leaks do say things about Rey's attitude, which I was pointing out. I am not sure Rey is thinking about it in terms of chances. She sees the Force isn't done with her adversary and he may learn eventually. But for now I think she has her purpose with the Resistance.

    My main point is that the ending is pretty open. It isn't a resolution between Rey and Kylo--as that is yet to come.

    And also Kylo may change. Nothing is fixed in place. That was something Rey noted in novelization leak.

    @Qui-Riv-Brid I think Rey failed by rushing into a situation she didn't understand thinking it would be simple. Ultimately her failure may be for the better just as Luke's ESB failure was ultimately for the better.
     
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2018
  11. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

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    Mar 4, 2011
    @oncafar : The Jedi way is to behave compassionately. The Jedi way could not tell anyone how to feel, nor did they despite the arguments that the Jedi were told they “couldn’t have emotions”—that argument was/is crap, the Jedi were told they could not act on negative emotions and that they could not prioritize their emotions above the greater good of the galaxy. A very, very good lesson, and I hope whatever the new Jedi Order becomes, it maintains that lesson—without, as Luke said, the Light Side being relegated solely to one particular group of people.

    This is why I have argued against the idea of Rey killing Kylo. It would not be compassionate behavior or within the Jedi way for her to do that. But @RandomGreyJ is correct, she is under no obligation to love him unconditionally in order to be a good person; she is not even under any obligation to be his friend. She is not a terrible person or even a terrible Jedi if she does not try to reach him again.

    I did not understand her having soft warm feelings for him in TLJ and I will not understand it if she does that in IX. If the Jedi way is understood to be “don’t have a backbone or any expectations for good behavior among the people you choose to spend the bulk of your time with” or “ignore the good people who have befriended you so that you can try to fix mass murderers,” then Luke is right, it is time for the Jedi to end. But that has never been how I understood the Jedi way.

    @Blastaar : Thank you. The real-life example of pity for white mass murdering teenagers and the demonization of innocent black teenagers is a big part of why I have such an issue with the glossing over and excuses for Kylo Ren’s behavior. I see the comparison as well. Granted any in-depth discussion of it should probably go in the Senate Floor in the Race Relations thread.
     
  12. oncafar

    oncafar Force Ghost star 6

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    Jan 10, 2017
    @anakinfansince1983 this isn't about Rey being obligated to feel anything. It's about how she *does* feel. Rey feels compassion for Kylo in TLJ. That is just a fact. And despite headcanons, the novelization leaks show her attitudes as they are.

    My arguments are never about how Rey *should* feel. Though often others are saying she should not feel compassion for Kylo or else she is stupid. I'm usually arguing FOR Rey's right to feel as she does. This is consistent across my posts.
     
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2018
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  13. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

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    Mar 4, 2011
    I’m aware of that, and I don’t understand why she feels compassion for him and I’m not sure I ever will, because a lot of people have given explanations and I still don’t get it.

    I was addressing the part of the “feeling compassion” being an obligation of a Jedi, and the idea that she is obligated to continue feeling compassion for him in IX if she is to be a Jedi. I don’t think she is obligated to feel anything positive towards him in IX, she is only obligated to not give in to any hatred or anger she might feel.
     
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  14. PCCViking

    PCCViking Chosen One star 10

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    Jun 12, 2014
    Again, I think TLJ would have been better off having a few years separate it like the other entries in the other trilogy. Maybe Rey would have learned something in the meantime that might "justify" any compassion for Rey.

    As it stands, though, such compassion is unbelievable and requires a major suspension of disbelief, even though Snoke is pulling the strings a bit.
     
  15. oncafar

    oncafar Force Ghost star 6

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    Jan 10, 2017
    You're the one adding obligation into this. You might notice the word is not in my posts (hint) because it wasn't what I was saying. I try to be careful with my words. The choice is deliberate.

    I mean I guess we could argue about emotional obligations for Jedi. Hate and anger are of the dark side. Compassion is light side. It's a matter of how light the Jedi are. Is the GL quote about obligations? I think it's more about light vs. dark.
     
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2018
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  16. DarthPhilosopher

    DarthPhilosopher Chosen One star 6

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    Jan 23, 2011
    That has nothing to do with the point I was making. I was arguing whether it made sense for Rey, given the circumstances, to come to the conclusions she did. Whether she being manipulated was good or bad for her story is a completely different point.
     
  17. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

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    Mar 4, 2011
    As I told you yesterday, I don’t need “hints.”

    The word “should” implies obligation. You used it several times in the post in question. The idea that someone “should” do something is the same as someone being obligated to do something.

    So I’m not putting obligation into it, the word “should” is putting obligation into it. If you want to talk about what Rey “should” do in IX in order to be a good Jedi, let’s talk about it. Feeling anything for Kylo is not part of what she “should” do.
     
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  18. Qui-Riv-Brid

    Qui-Riv-Brid Force Ghost star 5

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    Apr 18, 2013
    And it was played as a failure and felt like one and has consequences then that would have been something. None of these things happened though.

    It's nothing but wins for Rey and the Resistance as now in Ren in charge the First Order is truly doomed.

    Now IF Ren had been improbably transformed into a real threat, actually killed Luke (either in person or Force linked to the island and killed him there) and the others got away through no actual fault of his own (as Luke stopped the First Order from getting through) then it's a different story. The Falcon got away due to Ren's incompetence alone while in TESB it got away due to R2 being the hero.

    Except that isn't what happens. Ren is a fool and they could have easily destroyed everyone save for his incompetence. If Ren had listened to Hux (who himself was made into an abject joke in TLJ) then they would have wiped them out...all of them... but no.
     
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2018
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  19. La Calavera

    La Calavera Force Ghost star 4

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    Sep 2, 2015
    I find it really odd that when in TFA Finn told Rey he going to leave, she only said “don’t go” but never bothered to run after him or cry because he was making a choice she didn’t like. Yet TLJ expects me to believe that two days later, that-same-Rey would be so damn invested in redeeming this random psychotic manchild she just chatted with in one afternoon, she would attack Luke for it and ship herself to Snoke’s ship in the slightest bit of hope he would somehow completely change his ways for her, and then starts crying when he doesn’t.

    Just really strange character work.

    This whole plot would’ve certainly benefited from some timeskip, or a least a sense that she had been chatting with Kylo for weeks, at least.
     
  20. DarthPhilosopher

    DarthPhilosopher Chosen One star 6

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    Jan 23, 2011
    I agree that a time-skip could have solved a lot of issues with the film.
     
  21. oncafar

    oncafar Force Ghost star 6

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    Jan 10, 2017
    Nope. "The Jedi should love everyone, they should love the Sith" are GL's words not mine. All other uses of the word are countering attitudes from the outside about what Rey should feel. I am against any "Rey should (or should not) feel X" argument. People feel what they feel. It's that simple.

    I went and checked all my posts for the word, btw.

    My use of the GL quote was a statement about what Star Wars is and is not--it has never been anti-compassion. That context is in my posts too.

    Again, see above. I am not coming from the context of what Rey should do to be a good Jedi. That again, is coming from you. But I do think that Rey will reflect Star Wars in what she does. Maybe after IX I'll have an opinion on if Rey was a "good Jedi" or not. So far I don't know what I think about that, which is why I don't discuss if I think Rey is a good Jedi or not.

    Again, you add this thing about how Rey should feel towards Kylo. You might have noticed that I've never been bothered by Rey hating Kylo, as I thought she did at the end of TFA. You are turning this into something it's not.

    It's not important to me that people constantly be stellar examples, BTW.
     
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2018
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  22. Vicarious Fan

    Vicarious Fan Jedi Master star 3

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    Jul 1, 2013
    like i said there is never a good reason for becoming a mass murderer. I'm pointing out that because they hate their parents is a reason why people do become a mass murderer in the real world.

    I'm not saying that those people who do it are misunderstood or should be shown any sympathy. Which is why I was confused as why you brought up the portrayal of shooting victims in the media. I'm just saying that explanation doesn't come completely out of left field.

    I can't think of a single reason for becoming a mass murderer that would be considered a good reason or even make a character sympathetic.
     
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  23. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

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    Aug 6, 2016
    She attack Luke because she felt deceived and he was being evasive and uncooperative. Not for Ben's sake.
    ...she's seemingly proven wrong (and Luke right) and feels used and let down by Ben. It had been a mistake.

    Luke goes to the Death Star in hope of his father being persuaded into turning back to the good side, then goes on the rampage when he doesn't. So extreme negative responses aren't all that strange in this kind of context.
     
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2018
  24. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

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    Mar 4, 2011
    @oncafar : You seem right now to be more interested in nitpicking word semantics so you can throw random words back at me in an attempt to score points of some sort, than in actually discussing the topic of Rey’s character development in VIII and IX. Let me know when that changes.

    Everyone else covered the topic of Rey, compassion and Kylo. It does not make sense to many of us why she feels compassion for him, and it will make even less sense if she continues to do so in IX, after he did nothing in TLJ other than manipulate her kindness to his advantage.

    @Vicarious Fan : I’d go a step further than that. Kylo Ren has no reason to hate his parents, much less any reason to hate his parents enough that he chooses mass murder.

    @Martoto77 : Luke’s momentary lapse of judgment when Vader goaded him about Leia, was more understandable to me than Rey crying.
     
  25. La Calavera

    La Calavera Force Ghost star 4

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    Sep 2, 2015
    “Is it true? Did you try murder him?”

    That sounded for Ben' sake to me. Normally, she shouldn’t give a rat’s ass about a Jedi attempting to kill a mass-murdering monster and omitting it out of shame, but she was still portrayed as being deeply affected by it because of her Force skype chats with Ben, which lasted for less than a day.

    I know she was proven wrong (in this movie, I have yet to see the conclusion of this triogy) but I was merely talking about behaviors that don’t make sense to me. Luke didn’t start crying when Vader said no to his insistence. He said “then my father is truly dead” and went on to fight him.And this is a character that had always (since his introduction) been motivated by his father, so it always made sense to me that he would have a special investment on him.
     
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