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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

ST The Sanctuary - (Dissenters Unite! - Warning on page 232)

Discussion in 'Sequel Trilogy' started by BretHart, Dec 13, 2017.

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  1. Hernalt

    Hernalt Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 29, 2000
    I'm just checking in to do some light watching of Rome burn.
     
  2. ChildOfWinds

    ChildOfWinds Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Apr 7, 2001
    I don’t really “ buy” their explanation. TLJ was NOT a children’s film really. That seems to be more of a reason why the toys didn’t sell as well. I know that my nephews and niece did not want Star Wars toys for Christmas after seeing the film in mid December.

    I think some of the adult collectors may have skipped some toys this year too after seeing TLJ.
     
  3. JamieH

    JamieH Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Dec 25, 2015
    I think he fundamentally doesn't get "Star Wars"
     
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  4. ChildOfWinds

    ChildOfWinds Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Apr 7, 2001
    Actually, I don’t think that TLJ either shows OR tells all that much of stuff that’s really important. We still know almost nothing about Rey or her background, and some things that we are told about her, like she was sold for drinking money and her parents died on Jakku, are actually contradictory to what we see in in TFA, where she is no one’s slave, and we watch with Rey as a ship, supposedly carrying her parents, flies away while Rey cries.

    We know nothing about snoke or his background; not even where he came from or about how, when, and where he corrupted Kylo.

    We know nothing about the first Jedi temple or why Luke chose to go there in the first place.

    We know nothing about how, when, and why Luke’s other students were lost to the dark side.

    We still don’t really know why Kylo fell, or why, three days after he killed his father and and injured Finn and tortured her, Rey wanted to turn Kylo back to the light.

    It goes on and on. In my opinion, this film was really a series of action sequences cobbled together. There really doesn’t seem to be much of an actual story here.; nor is there much explanation of anything. Story and character and continuity and logic were sacrificed in favor of what the filmmaker seemed to think were “cool” scenes or sequences, like the casino sscene, the saving the horse creatures scene, the force Skyping; the milking scene, the lightsaber toss, the bb8 hero scenes, the mirror scene,explosions, etc.
     
  5. SaintKenobi1322

    SaintKenobi1322 Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 17, 2013
    You can’t buy what’s not there. Hasbro didn’t make much, and what they did make they failed to distribute.
     
  6. SaintKenobi1322

    SaintKenobi1322 Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 17, 2013
    That was supposed to be the twist in ST; instead of being on a hero’s journey, Kylo Ren was supposed to be on a villain’s journey. He wants to be ruthless and cold. He’s trying to shed his compassion and attachment in TFA. The suddenly in TLJ, he kills his master hours after killing his own father for him, wants to kill his uncle, won’t kill his mother but will let someone else do it, and can’t kill a stranger who almost killed him like two days ago.

    Got it?
     
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  7. Solo88

    Solo88 Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Jan 31, 2018
    In that deleted scene Finn says "When I put a gun to your head." Rian Johnson, it's called a blaster SMH...
     
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2018
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  8. SatineNaberrie

    SatineNaberrie Jedi Master star 4

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    Jan 28, 2014
    We already got the villain's story. I don't like how Anakin/Vader's fall was shown in the PT, but I understood what GL was trying to do
    and it's better than Klyo's.
     
  9. Jedi Jessy

    Jedi Jessy Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Feb 28, 2016
    "Andy Serkis, the actor behind Supreme Leader Snoke in Star Wars: The Last Jedi, has been asked not to reveal the character’s backstory.

    Ever since his debut in The Force Awakens, fans have been obsessed with Supreme Leader Snoke and finding out more regarding his backstory. These details didn’t come, however, during The Last Jedi – the character was killed off before any such details could be revealed.

    While a few morsels of information have been revealed from the film’s novelisation, we are still in the dark about exactly who this individual is and where he comes from. Andy Serkis knows, however, but has apparently been told not to reveal anything to the public:

    “We wanted him to have a great deal of mystery, but we did … J.J. and I discussed it, and Rian and I did discuss backstories to him, where he came from,” Serkis revealed to Entertainment Weekly. “I’ve been asked to not shed anything, should we want to bring him back in any way whether [in a] prequel or whatever. I think there’s something cool about that. It still does remain a mystery for people. I know that some people find it incredibly frustrating, but I think it allows for further exploration and layering at a further point.

    incredibly frustrating? nope
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2018
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  10. Gharlane

    Gharlane Jedi Grand Master star 3

    Registered:
    Dec 30, 2000
    Because JJ and RJ have tried to reduce the political angle to cliches to minimize the amount of storytelling spent on politics (seemingly due to a fear of repeating the prequels). So the weak democracy angle from the storytelling perspective is the path of least resistance in terms of sloppy writing because it opens up to reducing the conflict back to the OT's Rebs vs Imps models that Disney seemingly want to milk to death.

    The cliche of weak democratic institutions undermines the entire point of the ST. The Resistance's raison d'etre is defending and (post-TLJ) in trying to restore this weak and inefficient system. If anything like you said the ST is the best argument for space fascism, which I think would be appalling to GL given how he wrote the original SW as a political allegory not to mention calls into question why the heroes even bother.
     
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2018
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  11. Glitterstimm

    Glitterstimm Force Ghost star 6

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    Dec 30, 2017
    Guns, laser swords, hyperspace tracking beacons There’s only one business in the galaxy that’ll get you this rich, God speed rebels!
     
  12. SaintKenobi1322

    SaintKenobi1322 Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 17, 2013
    Anakin didn’t intend to be evil. That was a byproduct of his desire to control everyone and everything because he thought he knew best. Kylo went out of his way to be bad. Big difference. Anakin slid toward darkness; Ben went out chasing it.
     
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  13. SatineNaberrie

    SatineNaberrie Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 28, 2014
    Almost agree, but I thought his motivation was shown to be more about saving Padme, and then bringing order to the galaxy.
     
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  14. Nipuhanipera

    Nipuhanipera Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    May 25, 2014
    I see that Rian is a genuine superfan. :)
     
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2018
  15. QuangoFett

    QuangoFett Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 11, 2011
    This.

    The ST is certainly among the more explicitly militarist works of modern fiction I've seen, while despite the name, the prior films were much less so. It borders on apologia for autocracy. Makes me laugh whenever I see some pundit praise/damn it as a paragon of progressivism.

    It could have actually been quite inspiring to fold the Resistance back into the New Republic, and to then see this ambitious, universalist, democratic federation do its best to fight on in the face of the FO's terroristic viciousness while maintaining its core values. The challenge would be for the NR to succeed where the old Galactic Republic failed, where the latter faced off threats only by losing its decency. The latter decline into tyranny was guided by the Sith, but with that precedent, would the NR be doomed to the same fate, or could it persevere and prove the efficacy of its ideals?

    There would inevitably be moral ambiguity, as the use of military force by a hegemonically powerful NR would require introspection and debate in order to be truly ethical and humane.

    Moral ambiguity precludes the permanent victimhood narrative that the ST ends up giving to the heroes. Despite being supportive of what was the Galactic government until a few hours earlier, their forces are under-resourced and constantly on the back foot. They are perpetual victims, forced into multiple self-sacrificial last stands. They are necessarily an unaccountable paramilitary with opaque, autocratic leaders who must not be questioned. They are continually betrayed by people who show insufficient deference (Poe), insufficient fervour (Luke, the NR leadership and citizenry) and insufficient loyalty (the disproportionately alien economic elite on Canto Bight; unfortunate implications...).

    The Resistance fight is imperative, with failure to join being the highest of moral failures... but also completely pointless, because the Resistance is only in its dire situation because its favoured system of government seemingly inevitably leads to nothing but ruin.

    Again, it's truly astounding that this is the situation we're meant to believe exists after ROTJ. In quite a few instances, the story denounces the weakness of democracy and comes close to endorsing some very... odd conclusions.

    It is possible to do politics right. Even if people didn't like that one Senate procedural scene in TPM, that's no excuse for completely excising politics to devote more time to explosions. War is politics by other means, and war without politics is just mindless violence.
     
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2018
  16. SaintKenobi1322

    SaintKenobi1322 Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 17, 2013
    It was, but his arrogance blinded him into thinking he and he alone could do those things. He started from a noble intent; that’s my point. He didn’t set out to be evil.

    Ben appears to have just been a bad seed who enjoys being a bratty emo kid. He’s trying to be Vader, when Vader never wanted to be Vader.

    And that’s one of many aspects of TFA that was all but ignored in TLJ. We don’t know what Kylo actually knows about Anakin. Amazing that Luke wouldn’t have mentioned something about that in their showdown.

    RJ has this vast galaxy of material to pull from and completely wasted it.
     
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2018
  17. SatineNaberrie

    SatineNaberrie Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 28, 2014
    Agreed!

    Vader/Anakin is one of my favorite characters. While I don't excuse his actions, I understand it. And in the end he regretted what he did.

    I can't get into Klyo Ren because he's just a brat who wants to be evil for the sake of being evil. And people expect me to believe he feels the pull of the light and think he's
    some complex character?
    Klyo Ren's character doesn't make sense. It's a terrible story.
     
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2018
  18. godisawesome

    godisawesome Skywalker Saga Undersheriff star 6 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Dec 14, 2010
    Abrams and Kasdan had kind of teed Kylo up for Johnson to explore what made him go the way he did, since they concealed Kylo's turmoil until the end of TFA, and set him up for a training story with Snoke which would explore what kind of hold the Supreme Leader held over Han and Leia's son, and had heavily suggested it was rooted in delusions of his grandfather. There is some very clear framework there for continuing to make Kylo some new and different twist on the Evil Skywalker idea.

    And then Johnson chose to give the character a by and large static portrayal, discarded the implications and mystery fo Kylo's focus on Vader in the character's first scene, and refused to use Snoke as anything except as a prop. It kind of makes Kylo, Snoke, and the entire First Order just Diet Empire, when they could be some new, sleeker evolution of evil.

    Ps. I've got a separate inquiry for you guys; if you were part of the creative process, and could IX at one subplot to give room to others, even if you disagreed with the ideas behind them all, which subplot would go bye-bye? Mines Holdo, Poe, and the Space Chase, since they feel like the worst put together story and don't technically feature a main protagonist but instead a minor supporting one.
     
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2018
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  19. MagnarTheGreat

    MagnarTheGreat Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 21, 2016
    Rian Johnson: "Just wookieepedia'd whether 'lightsaber' is one or two words, so don't worry your childhoods are in very safe hands." (February 3, 2015) (deleted tweet - he recently deleted all his old tweets)

    Uh huh. About that...
     
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  20. RandomGreyJ

    RandomGreyJ Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 14, 2016
    Don't forget you murdering bastard. Such memorable "not-out-of-place-at-all" lines.

    EDIT: I feel like they wanted that line to be like Han's "I'll see you in hell!" line. Oh well...
     
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2018
  21. powerfulforce

    powerfulforce Jedi Grand Master star 3

    Registered:
    Mar 16, 2005
    The problem isn’t that Ben willingly turned to the dark side, it’s that films keep trying to show him as conflicted and someone to sympathize with as well as be the “bad boy”. A character that wants and chooses to be evil, that can be compelling. Young Justice did a “villain of the week” episode where the antagonist was someone who chose to be evil because he wanted to be powerful, even murdering the one person he had left in the world to do so. That was done far better and in a 22 minute episode no less. So I don’t have a problem really with Rey being a nobody or Ben choosing to be evil, it’s the terrible execution of it all. Rey being so powerful because either the force wills it or she “downloaded” things from Kylo’s mind is just laziness. Why should I care if Kylo is conflicted? He gets chance after chance to come back and rebukes it every time. Then the Kylo and Rey being together angle? I’m sorry but that is way too much and has no place in this series. I am actually looking forward to a reboot. It is unfortunate that it has come to this and other actors/actresses will have to take the helm going forward, but it may be the only way to save the franchise before it falls to the wayside.
     
  22. La Calavera

    La Calavera Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2015
    Hey, he tried.
    “Murderous snake” may have been his best attempt at trying to write a classic SW insult like “scruffy-looking nerf herder” or “laser-brain”.
    Glad to know that in this galaxy far, far away, snakes have the same exact negative meaning as in Western Christian countries on Earth.
     
  23. oncafar

    oncafar Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 10, 2017
    Snake is used for both Kylo and DJ, btw.
     
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  24. Glitterstimm

    Glitterstimm Force Ghost star 6

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    Dec 30, 2017
    Let's never forget this gem:
    Rose: What?
    DJ: What?
    Rose: What?
     
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  25. RandomGreyJ

    RandomGreyJ Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 14, 2016
    Snakes...why did it have to be snakes.
    Bunch a murdering snake bastards...GET OFF MY PLANE
     
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2018
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