Lit Books LOTF - First Time Read Thread - No spoilers post-Invincible

She was a strong character but that doesn't mean she wasn't emotionally vulnerable or unable to be compromised,

Personally I would have preferred Ben becoming Caedus Sith apprentice-imagine the psychological torment that would put Luke through.

Though come to think of it-I'm really that sure how psychologically robust Tahiri actually was.

She was brainwashed by the Yuuzhan Vong after all and developed the personality of Riina. She was also if I recall an orphan who lived amongst the tuskens on Tatooine.

Her relationship with Anakin seemed to pull her in a stronger direction and his death did affect her greatly.

So it's clear I think when you look at Tahiri's biography and then look at her psyche-she wasn't that strong at all and was in fact quite vulnerable to Caedus pyschological and emotional manipulations.

 

I don't really have an issue with how Pellaeon views Daala. He was her second in command when she reunited them Empire and lead it against the NR.

She lost, then quite.

So he he has fond memories of her and respect that we with a more complete view of her do not.

Still does not explain why anyone thought she was a good idea for CoS

 

Spoiler

I guess because she was installed not elected and the Jedi wanted some sort of stabilizing figure because elections were basically suspended while Caedus and Niathal ruled as co-generalissimos.

Spoiler

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I can see Pellaeon viewing Daala as a friend after all he knew her better than the readers did so he probably has more fond or respectful memories of her.

 

Well, Tahiri's character degradation is kind of more of the same as what they did to Jacen (and to a lesser extent Mara), in that they decided they needed angst and character stupidity, and since Anakin's death was a huge event in the EU, that's their excuse for her acting so horribly. Who cares that it undoes character development, that she was pretty stable at the end of the NJO, angst is more important.

Honestly, its just sad seeing Tahiri manipulated like that. Its understandable she's still very affected by Anakin's death, but well, let's just say the series still hasn't hit rock bottom.

I don't mind Pellaeon respecting Daala, her playing such a big role in the battle is silly. Especially pulling out a bunch of supposed superweapons from out of nowhere. And as for the CoS thing, well, we'll cover that after you finish reading Invincible.

 

Wasn't Tavira considered to be the head of the Maw Irregular Fleet instead of Daala? Would she have fit better?

 

It wasn't that she lost someone she loved and therefore was "lost."

It was that she was scarred, physically and emotionally, and the abuse - particularly from the Yuuzhan Vong - was not something that anyone in the galaxy could really help. She didn't receive therapy, any proper guidance to help her cope with anything she went through. She would have gotten over (okay, obviously not fully, but she would have learned to live through) Anakin's death, but
1) She was 14/15. That is a young age to lost a best friend, a romantic love. It damages the psyche in a way that a more physiologically developed adult may not be damaged.
2) It came on the heels of HIM saving her from physical torture and mental abuse. This is bad enough for any person, but youth being abused even more do NOT know how to work through that past without proper therapy and psychological analysis. Tahiri did not have anything except for her anchor, and when that anchor was removed, it threw her into PTSD that was not addressed.
3) Tahiri was truly the only person in the galaxy who faced the horrors she did at the hands of the Yuuzhan Vong. While each abuse case can be different, there can still be support through different groups and therapy sessions. But while others can relate to losing someone young, no one can relate to the compiled poodoo Tahiri endured. How can you get help for something that literally no one can understand? Can empathize with? Can know how to even work through?

So Tahiri was left mentally and spiritually and physically wandering the next decade(ish) going through the motions, feeling guilty for her best friend's death, and reliving the crap the Yuuzhan Vong put her through.
Then Jacen comes around and he is quite possibly the only other person who could understand. Were others tortured by the Yuuzhan Vong? Yes. But he is a Jedi, and that makes a galaxy-load of a difference. AND her love is his brother, so there is a connection.

Jacen offers to treat the symptoms - you have night terrors and X-Y-Z issues that were healing because you had a loving person to ground you. Let me dangle that dead person in front of you and it'll be all better.
Anakin was her drug of choice; her alcoholic beverage; her addiction in the guise of a cure. And Jacen was her drug dealer.


So I agree that Tahiri should not be defined by that relationship. But that's how she defined a normal life, how she dealt with the abuse.
She IS so much more and BECOMES so much more, but not until she stops and realizes that she needs help. Until then, she is lost and alone in the galaxy.

 

Your right she need not be defined by her relationship with Anakin alone. But out of all of Caedus' potential apprentices Tahiri was the easiest to break. Because she was already broken. She was extremely vulnerable because of the reasons you cite to his emotional and psychological manipulations.

 

all of this is possibly true about Tahiri, I can understand how it'd be very hard to move on, but I do ask this, what characterizations does Tahiri have other than

1) lost Anakin in SbS and is still messed up about it?
2) scarred by Vong....although supposedly she did deal with this by the end of the NJO and seemed to be mostly okay....she fused the 2 personalities into 1 and seemed stronger bc of it....as well as was going to stay on Sekot at the end of NJO to learn and that seemed like a pretty big indication she would show back up stronger not weaker to me....

and if this is all there is to her characterization, that's what's sad and pathetic about it, she's not a fully fledged character or even in line with her previous characterization

also, just started reading the next chapter, and even with all this other stuff, she's just too all in on the Sith stuff too it seems to me. Even if she was following Jacen bc of Anakin thing, you'd think she wouldn't be so INTO the Sith principles, yet she is. That also shows weak characterization to me for a Jedi who has been trained to disavow Sith stuff.

EDIT: another chapter, another issue.....

So, Tahiri has killed Pellaeon whose last words were to listen to Niathal and attack Solo....yet the IR is rejoining Jacen according to Tahiri.....yes, the Moffs want the IR to back Jacen but why would the military listen to them over Pellaeon their actual leader....Tahiri also indicates the IR was attacking the Bloodfin for siding with Pellaeon I guess...then the Moffs called off the attack, but are stranded on the Bloodfin, but supposedly the IR will return to attack the Bloodfin again although the Moffs are on it I guess bc the Bloodfin crew has mutinied against the Moffs???, it's all seems convoluted and a mess.....

 

The moffs were always excited about expanding their clout-to them I think Caedus was a ticket to revitalizing the empire.

Also Caedus could more easily intimidate them then he could Pellaeon.

 

This is true.
It's a failing of post-NJO media: the next gen characters were written flat and/or ignored until FOTJ. LOTF especially focused on the Big Three and Luke's love life (a failing of FOTJ as well). Yeah it's about Jacen's fall and him and TK and all, but the others were so fleshed out in the NJO and pretty much set aside.
Tahiri and the Horns were most affected by this

 

The moffs are conniving for sure, but the fleet had always been shown to be allmost fanatical in thier loyalty to Pelly.

The fact that he could take the fleet and do whatever he wanted with it if the moffs tried to make him do something he disagreed with is pretty much what the whole cult of personality he used to run the empire was based around.

So the fleet suddenly ignores his last command and subsequent assassination to listen to the moffs is a little strange.

 

Pellaeon is dead and Caedus is the co chief of state. Most soldiers will follow orders.

 

But Niathal is the co COS as well, and thier last direct order was to place thier ships at her disposal.

 

And Caedus can say that order has been rescinded or he can get the moffs to say that.

 

Given time, I think the Maw Irregular Command could've rallied the rank and file of the Remnant to their side, overthrowing the Moffs. The thing is though, the war didn't last very long after Pellaeon's death, so there wasn't much room for division.

 

I'm sure if Caedus would have had Daala killed as well if he believed she would flip the imperial remnant against him.

 

As a soldier, who are you going to listen to? Your CO who orders you to blindly follow the leader of another government, right before he dies? Or the surviving leaders of your government, who tell you that the your CO"s last order was illegal and should be disregarded.

"The last I checked, the Empire was an ally of the Galactic Alliance, not its territory."

 

except u forget/ignore things already said
1) the fleet were fanatical about Pellaeon and he did give the last order to side with Niathal
2) the fleet often disregarded the Moffs so why not here
3) how can Caedus rescind the order as Co-COS, his authority isn't greater, it's equal, so it'd still be up to the fleet to respond with siding with Pellaeon/Niathal or Moffs/Jacen since it's 2 equal orders so look at points 1 and 2

 

I would agree with u in a vacuum, but...

1) I feel we can safely assume the fleet knows Pellaeon well enough to trust him and his judgment based off previous knowledge of their loyalty
2) I feel we can safely assume the fleet really don't care for the Moffs probably bc of point 1
3) So I def. feel that your last statement would have a hard time working in the Moffs favor...accusing Pellaeon of that wouldn't help their cause

 

I'd say your first point is false, given that the entire fleet save Bloodfin ignores Pellaeon's order. As for your second point, if the rest of the fleet didn't care for the Moffs, why did they follow their orders?

 

well that all comes down to opinion on the events themselves....
I believe the events you're talking about are in contrast to how the IR fleet has been previously portrayed so it's an issue to me
You are accepting that the events themselves prove their feelings so it's not an issue to you

 

Well the last time we see the Imperial Fleet prior to Revelation is in 30 ABY. Ten years is a very long time, and Pelleaon spent half of them being Supreme Commander of the Galactic Alliance. When we see him in Revelation, he's watching parades in his palace, not commanding a Star Destroyer. Just because the entire fleet respected Pelleaon at the end of the war doesn't mean that respect endured over the following decade.

 

I guess

I guess it would come down to how much they know. I would have to imagine they would be less than enthused about the GA assassinating the Imperial head of state, even more so with the traitorous actors within the Moff council that allowed it to proceed with their blessing. We know that he had the whole thing recorded and sent to Dalaa, but if all the fleet heard was his last orders I could buy the Moffs managing to keep things smoothed over for the time being.

 

yea, but u'r making an inference of A CHANGE in behavior without any facts or insight into that being the case just bc of a gap of those 10 years.....w/o facts or insight into a change, I believe it's natural to think the situation is the same unless you see a difference....maybe u'r right in that this is the difference, it's just a shock right now, I had to go to work so I haven't read anything past right when they turn and start helping Jacen

 

Let's just agree. Bad writing, horrible editing. It likely has to do with Invincible though. The IR apparently is awesome and the GA is pathetic, that seems to be the excuse of this series (and NJO to be honest).