ST Mark Hamill (Luke Skywalker) in the ST

I'm sorry. Got that footage from YouTube. But yea if it's not legit then I understand you guys removing it.

 

Luke on Crait = a Jedi uses the force for knowledge and defense. Never for attack.

 

Which of course is one of his teachings to Rey in that a true Jedi would do nothing in the face of a conflict that doesn't involve them. Its the same justification he uses to describe how the previous generations of Jedi failed in their approaches and why the Jedi religion must end.

I'd say he probably learnt all of this partly from his life experiences, but mostly from all of these Jedi texts and artefacts he found on his many journeys.

But (IMO) like most religions, one can get too bogged down on the literal meaning of texts and subsequently, their actions may not actually truly represent what the religion proposes. It took a clip over the back of the head from Yoda to put Luke's "religious" beliefs back into its proper perspective.

 

But good people shouldn’t stand or sit by and let countless people die when they have the abilities, the gifts, to help. Jedi shouldn’t initiate conflict, but they should stand (and fight) against evil, even if that conflict doesn’t involve them. They shouldn’t allow innocents to die when they can prevent it or make the death toll less.

Luke was wrong to sit by and do nothing for six years while snoke, Kylo, and the first order terrorized the galaxy and killed who knows how many people. Luke could have stopped some of that carnage. Since he did nothing, a lot of that blood is his responsibility.

 

If that's something he already knew, then why does it take years and a chewing out from Yoda before Luke actually does something? Shouldn't he have been overjoyed to see Rey and gone right back with her?

 

When one is broken and has been falling into despair for years, one tends not to be able to make use some things they learned previously because they've fallen. Their perspective shifts to the negative and cynical.

 

Did I miss something?
Where exactly did the First Order terrorize the galaxy for six years, killing many people in the process?
The First Order did basically nothing that truly attacked the Republic until they destroyed it with Starkiller base. That's the whole point. The resistence exists because the Republic saw no real reason to act against the First Order. That hardly would have been the case if the First Order had in any way attacked the Republic prior to this.

There was no real blood being shed, apart from his own pupils who died when the temple got destroyed. Nor is it Luke's responsibility to save the galaxy from itself, when even the Republic didn't want to do anything about it. Luke isn't Emperor, it's not his job to force the Republic to destroy the First Order when it doesn't want to do that.

You basically ignore everything that is happening in the movies, or the circumstances surrounding them. It was stated very explicidly what Luke wanted to achieve with what he did, and why he thought that removing the Jedi from the picture was a good idea. He couldn't possibly know that the Republic - which was easily the most powerful entity in the galaxy - would vanish in an instance. He does however know, that the Jedi let Palpatine turn the Republic into an Empire, and that his attempt to bring the Jedi back also backfired spectacularly. Reasons enough for him to think that the chosen approach by the old Jedi and himself wasn't helping the galaxy.

 

I started to reply that I could see the Rebellion hand-waving it as legitimate business -- that Luke probably even got permission from higher ups to secretly not join the post-Hoth rendezvous .-- but now I'm more amused at the thought that there's a (tiny) secret jerk in Luke who just flat out stole the thing.

 

Are we talking about Luke or the New Republic? Missing the point indeed.

Luke had seen his nephew and apprentice gone rogue. His apprentice that was influenced by the Supreme Leader of a terrorist group known as the First Order. A Supreme Leader that Luke apparently knew on a personal level. The First Order was a threat enough for Leia, Luke's sister, to act. Why would a Jedi, a peacekeeper as well as being the first response to any potential crisis during the era of the Old Republic, decide to ignore and let the problem grow out of control? Luke knew the First Order better than the New Republic for all purpose and intent. Yet he did nothing.

You can try to downplay the First Order's crimes, but they are there. They have enslaved planets and kidnapped children before striking the capital (where did you think they got their armies and Starkiller Base). They've been led by an obviously evil Sith-wannabe of a leader. Leia is more of a Jedi than Luke because she realizes where the First Order will go.

It's the Jedi's role to keep the peace for over a thousand generations. Settle down disputes, solve problems, and prevent the evil from spreading across the galaxy uncontrollably. To ignore that philosophy and hope that the Force takes care of your problem is the equivalent of an UN peacekeeper offering nothing but thoughts and prayers to fleeing refugees.

Luke is wrong, on every account of his justification for his inaction, even moreso than the PT Jedi during the Clone Wars.

 

There WAS peace until the FO destroy the capital. Responding to the failure of his Jedi academy and defection of his pupils in anticipation of them enhancing the FO as a threat sometime in the future, would jeopardize the peace. Not guard it

After the betrayal, Luke knew that wherever the FO found him, there would be war, and he would have to kill his nephew or he him.

And if Luke had been openly detailed to the resistance, then the resistance would have been SKB's first target, followed quickly thereafter by the Republic.

Snoke even remarks at the wisdom of Skywalker's strategy when he discovers why he's been so elusive.

 

Luke criticized the PT Jedi Order for allowing Darth Sidious to sneak under their nose and rise to power. How did Palpatine made himself invulnerable? He manipulated the politics and had the Jedi's hands tied with legality. The Jedi Order was tied down in PR with the Republic. By the time they act, it was already too late. How is Luke any different in TLJ? If Luke is doing because of fear of jeopardizing the peace, he is no better than the PT Jedi that he criticize and thus a hypocrite. If Luke wants something better to arise, then why did he reject Rey? Why did he refuse to train her in the ways of the Force? Jedi or not, he should pass on what he has learn. Students are meant to surpass the teacher one day. Be better than their mentors. They could even make their own Jedi Order if they wish to.

This is why I never bought any arguments that what Luke was doing was a "good" and "noble" thing. It was cowardly and out of character. If this Luke Skywalker was present in OT, he would have allowed the Death Star to blow up not just Alderaan, but also Lothal, Mon Calamari, Yavin IV, and a whole score of Rebel sympathizer planets. Master Yoda, he is not.

 

How was Yoda more proactive than Luke? He was perfectly willing to let Luke not be trained because he didn't think him ready, and just wait around while the other hope was in constant danger.

 

Yoda was testing Luke to see if he is Jedi-worthy material. Luke failed miserably. He has proven himself to be impatient, hot-headed, angry and closed minded to not see that the crazy old hermit is Master Yoda. He is like his father, including the traits that led Anakin down the dark path. If Yoda trains Luke, it is possible that Luke might end up as Darth Vader or someone far worse.

Master Yoda also refutes Obi-Wan Kenobi that Luke is their last hope. He states that there is another.

Additionally, according to Star Wars Rebels, Yoda is far more proactive than Luke. He has been helping Jedi like Kanan, Ezra and Ahsoka despite millions of light years away. Yoda has been in contact with Obi-Wan and has been watching over Luke since he was a little boy through the Force.

Tell me, did Luke really anticipated Rey to come to him?

 

And he is perfectly willing to reject Luke while their other hope is in constant danger. He's really taking a massive gamble.... you could say trusting the Force.... much like Luke in TLJ.

 

Peace was already shattered by that point. And it wasn't because the Jedi had been held back from pre-empting the TF's play or the latter Separatist movement with militarily intervention. The whole situation was engineered to embroil the Jedi into doing things they didn't want to do and then making them out to be the warmongers.

Luke's criticism of the Republic era Jedi is not hypocritical. It just lacks a bit of self awareness and that indicates the estrangement between Luke as a person and his supposed destiny (caused by his failure to prevent Ben from being tepmpted). It's meant to be a compromise. It's meant to be ambivalent. Not noble.

Master Yoda he is not. Master Yoda hid in a swamp for 19 years and then reluctantly only trained Luke at Obi Wan's insistence. The implication being that Yoda had made himself so elusive because he was not willing to train any more Jedi. (retconned as waiting for the right time to train Luke according to ROTS, which was clearly meant to be some time well before ESB according Yoda in that film still "He is too old.")

Still, during the breakout of the civil war, Yoda remained hidden while the Alliance fought the tyranny of the Empire. Preserving his own life had long since become redundant since as early as ROTS, Yoda had discovered the secret to effective imortality via Qui Gon. The secret wihich enabled Obi Wan to assist Luke after his own "death". But Yoda only used this knolwedge and power to make a curtain call in ROTJ (until TLJ that is).

There's nothing that guarantees that Luke and the Resistance would have been able to convince the New Republic to risk the peace and prosperity that they had been enjoying for the last thrity years because Luke's Jedi turned against him. There's lots of things to make Luke's fear of making things worse, not better, dramatcially credible, even if it does not unequivocally satisfy the idealistic expectations we have for his character. Thankfully, he meets his destiny in a what that more than makes up for his off screen period of asbsence .

Remember when Luke foresaw a possible fight ahead and acted on that impulse immediately? Yoda : "Told you I did. Reckless is he... Now, matters are worse."

 

This is due to a hastily made retcon to wrap the story. One that is quite obvious and I wish they could have done better (I'll make no illusion to that). For the context of TESB at the time of the release, it quite clear that Master Yoda didn't need to gamble as much with Luke because he had another potential hero to find should Luke fail. Regardless of whether Yoda knows where Leia is, it doesn't change the fact that Yoda has done far more than Luke in OT.

Let us also remember that Yoda initially wants to train Luke when he first met him because Yoda, surprise surprise, intends to save the galaxy by training the son of Skywalker. It was seeing Luke in person that depressed him and why he didn't want to train Luke. If Luke is trained and he ends becoming a new Darth Vader, Yoda would have made the galaxy a whole lot worse.

Whereas Luke's impression of Rey is confusing. Was he flat refusing to train anymore Jedi or was there something about Rey that worries him. None of this is properly explained or paid off since Rey is incorruptible and thus no one fears that she would turn evil despite what Kylo Ren would have you believe.

 

You can't see how Luke's failure with Kylo, essentially creating another Vader might put him off that path again. You don't think if Luke had fallen that Yoda and Obi-Wan might look for another path like Luke did in TLJ?

 

Oh I see it. I just think it was a horribly executed element that no amount of novelization can justify it. The fact that you need a novel to retroactively explain Luke's agenda is a sign of the film's weakness in my eyes. What I saw in TLJ was clear: Luke cowardly ran from the fight and simple wants to burn everything to the ground out of his own shame of failure (that apparently requires another lesson from Master Yoda).

If Luke failed with Kylo Ren, then he should try to stop Kylo Ren before he makes things worse. After all, there was no indication that Luke had gravely injured Kylo Ren and left him for dead. For all Luke knows, Kylo Ren is alive and well at his prime, ready to bring the galaxy to its knees. He did not. He didn't even create the Resistance as a countermeasure against Kylo Ren and the First Order. That was all on Leia.

 

It was always Luke's agenda since RoTJ to not seek revenge. To not join a fight in anger or hatred. Kylo being "stopped" is a noble thing to aspire to. Achieving it without abandoning everything that he's previously forsworn is significantly easier said than done. This is something the audience already knows.

 

Revenge? You have to face the enemy when he threatens the galaxy. You cannot flee from it. Especially if it's your mistake. And that is no excuse of not facing your foe.

Obi-Wan had trouble fighting Anakin because he was full of grief and anger for what Anakin has done. But he nevertheless had to face his mistake head on in spite of his troubles because it is the right thing to do. Come ANH, Obi-Wan faces Vader again with no fear or desire for revenge.

Luke did not attempt to confront Kylo Ren about his mistakes in those past six years or if he did, it was never shown in the film.

 

How exactly do you propose should he have done that?

Ben was now a member of the First Order. A militant entity that was not yet actively going against the Republic. Do you suggest Luke should have gone there to face the entire First Order on his own? Because the Republic sure wasn't up for it.

You can't just mix and match stuff from different points in the timeline to fit whatever narrative you want to tell.

 

So because it would not have been easy, that is a suitable excuse for not doing it? I hold supposedly heroic characters to a higher standard than that. Which is why Luke in TLJ failed to meet it from beginning to end.

 

What would you describe as facing the enemy?

An incursion into FO territory to confirm what weapons they have to threaten the galaxy with? That would guarantee the war that conflict that Luke could foresee, not prevent it. There's no indication that the New Republic are suggestible to the Last Jedi's intuition alone and they do not have the stomach for anything but appeasement according to TFA. It is only the former rebel Alliance, succeeded by the Resistance, which has placed any faith in the Jedi since the Clone Wars.

Obi Wan fought because he was ordered to destroy Vader, by Yoda. His attachment to Ankain made him plead with Yoda to allow him to face Sidious, but Yoda ordered him to let go of Anakin who was no gone, replaced by Vader.

Because his previous confrontation with Ben was what ensured the vision he acquired in that moment would come true. Why should he see that another such confrontation, which TLJ demonstrated would be a fight to the death, with him would make amends? Han's death proved that Kylo during that period would not listen to or accept compassion from someone he claimed he didn't hate.

The implication from all the posts suggesting what Luke's supposed to have done is that it's the path of least resistance and the obvious one for a Jedi to seek the fight with his or her enemy. It's only that if Luke is prepared to do everything that he has forsworn not to do and to be. It would have ended with Luke killing Kylo or vice versa. So there would have been no victory. Darkness would have consumed either Luke or Ben forever.

If your standard for the hero is that they renege on their greatest victory (prior to TLJ) then I can't argue with your assessment of Luke. But that's not the standards that Luke set himself in ROTJ. A momentary lapse of awareness of that victory is what ensured Ben's defection.

 

I do agree that Luke`s greatest victory remains in ROTJ because I consider Crait too little and too late. It was a small step towards atonement but not remotely enough to allow the character to be called a hero again. That would cheapen the word for me.