ST Adam Driver (Kylo Ren) in Episode IX

I hear what you're saying. So basically the Resistance are going the hire Alec Baldwin to do a hammy Kylo Ren impression every Saturday night.

 

Han said there was too much Vader in Ben but how does that make sense? Ben couldn’t inherit evil from a man long dead before he was born.

That’s maybe why Han and Ben clashed? Han thought his son had a monster inside him and Ben hated that his father thought that about him? Then Snoke convinced Ben to embrace the idea that he had Vader inside him.

 

My theory is Snoke reached Ben as a child and fed his feelings of abandonment. This in addition to reacting to the invasive presence that was Snoke kept him in emotional turmoil. Things started breaking and malfunctioning around him as his emotions reverberated through the Force. He couldn't control it. Han and Leia were afraid because this darkness reminded them of Vader. And Ben knew they were afraid. He too was afraid he was a monster. In TLJ, he tells Rey he's a monster. He's believed this about himself since a young age, before he ever did anything truly monstrous or had the heart to do it.

 

And that impression would suck too.

 

Well I’d like it.

 

Definitely agree with this. I like all the new heroes, but Kylo/Ben is truly the most developed and interesting new character in the ST (and I say that as someone who always prefers the good guys). It's his journey as much as Rey's and there's a lot more drama & unpredictability surrounding his fate than there is hers at this point.

Personally I really hope he's redeemed and gets to live, because that's something we've not seen before. Rather than a death bed redemption he'll have to work at it and continue to rebuild and make amends (in fact they could even do a stand alone movie focuses on this after IX if they wanted). But also because I think Leia, Han and Luke deserve it. He's Han & Leia's son and the last Skywalker so I really want to see him turn this around.

 

Aunt Beru also said that there was "too much of his father" in Luke, without Luke ever having met him. It's about the personality and behaviour, it is not meant to be taken literally. Being like someone doesn't require to have met that person, or even having been alive before that person died. It doesn't require being raised by said person either. It's a figure of speech, something that merely shows that a character is similar to another character. A son or daughter being more like one of the grandparents than the own parents is hardly something unusual, regardless of whether the grandparents influenced the kid or not.

 

TLJ novel said about:
-a teen Ben Solo destroying stuff in their house
-their parents worried about his rage
-kid Ben being a big fan of Han and wanting to be a pilot like his father (Han was working as a racing pilot and years later a mentor to young pilots)

Maybe teen Ben already was acting a lot like Vader, Leia decided to take him to be with his uncle and Ben didn't like that Han agreed with her. He didn't understand their parents was trying to help him and thought in it as betrayal

PS: We don't know yet when Snoke met Ben, Pablo already said Snoke didn't brainwashed Ben. If Snoke and Luke knew each other, maybe he met Ben in Luke's academy. Pablo also said people jumped to conclusions in think Snoke was watching Ben from the womb just because of a phrase in Aftermath book

 

Would be a bummer if it turns out that Ben is the son of Leia and Snoke. Snoke impregnated Leia with a force trick to get a mixture of himself and the Vader blood. Would mean that Kylo killed his "father" twice. (And Snoke wanted Kylo to kill Han to get rid of the wrong dad)

 

Novelization said Snoke had been watching Luke because he knows that like Anakin was, Luke is an instrument of the cosmic Force, so I suppose this means Snoke must keep his all-seeing eye pointed at him from afar. Once Luke began seeming like a problem (it didn't say why?) Snoke somehow manipulated Ben's anger and Leia's guilt to break them apart and Snoke was pleased (?) that Luke focused on restarting the Jedi after he took Ben. But anyway the implication is that Snoke/Ben started as part of Snoke's design to get Ben's parents to send him off to Luke.

This whole thing is odd. Someone had mentioned before that Snoke might think ending the Jedi really IS wise. The novelization seems to agree with this. This would mean that Luke wasn't entirely off base with his idea of ending the Jedi. He perhaps wasn't even going to start them again until Ben came along. Luke's dialogue in TLJ kind of suggests that having young Ben led him to thinking he could pass on what he'd learned. I also remember the PH tweet that it wasn't Luke's idea to restart the Jedi and that this is important/part of the story.

So I feel like there is backstory here that is needed in IX regarding Luke (that is perhaps waiting). We don't know the specifics of WHY he decided to restart the Jedi. I kind of wonder if Rey/Luke's conversation about the Jedi Order in VIII is more the beginning of the conversation about this between them.

 

Not funny. Imagine the look in Kylos face when he realizes that Snoke was his father. Tragic emo moment confirmed.
(When Trevorrow told Daisy the story she started to cry because of poor Ben)

 

Maybe JW will finish Kylo’s theme for 9...I really like it and wish it were an entire track.

 

I very much doubt this really means anything in the movies. Basically the movies are the movies and then everything else is built around them. It's really not much different than Lucas with the movies (and TCW) then the EU.

Saying Anakin is an instrument of the Force is far too directed a term indicating an almost guiding intelligence to the Force. Rey is presented as a far more instrument of Light to Ren's Dark and interpretation could lead to that being a problem as well.

It'd be great for him of course because in the long run if there are Jedi (even if it takes 100 years) then his power is in danger.

Then why wasn't in in TLJ? It makes Luke's actions even more incomprehensible if that is the case.

 

It wasn't in TLJ because LFL hoards all of Luke's secrets for themselves!

 

I believe TLJ deliberately withheld key contextual imformation. As made evident by the confusion of so many fans as to how TLJ followed up on TFA.

 

I believe Kylo saw himself as not only the self-proclaimed protégé of Darth Vader, but he also see's himself as the failed self-proclaimed protégé of Darth Vader. Has Anakin/Vader made any kind of contact with Kylo? It would be interesting if early on Kylo says something like "I have found my path again" and "like you stepped out of your master's shadow Grandfather, I have stepped out of my master's shadow!".

He told himself the past had to be killed, that is not only his past as Ben Solo but all his past failures. He couldn't face Vader's battered helmet after his humiliation on SKB, that's saying he couldn't face his Grandfather, whether that be an imaginary persona or an actual Force-ghost. Kylo can now stand before his Vader museum and declare he has now surpassed what Vader accomplished and not only defeated his master, as Vader had done, but had taken his master's place as the head honcho.

Kylo Ren/Ben Solo can become a truly unique villain now...even to the point of becoming an anti-hero if Snoke's other apprentice show's up and turns out to be a real threat to not only Kylo but the new Rebellion and the galaxy as a whole. If and it's a massive if, this secret 2nd apprentice is only interested in defeating Kylo it will be a very hollow character and a weak end to the trilogy.

 

Are you suggesting that Ben and/or Leia convinced Luke to start up the Jedi Order?

 

No. I think something must have happened to make him go hardcore PT Jedi. Based on contextual clues, it sounded like he became seriously anti-attachment - note how Luke and Ben appear to have had zero personal relationship (even PT-era Jedi had some sort of emotional bonds)? In TFA, Leia refers to Luke as a “Jedi,” not “his (Ben’s) uncle.” Luke tells Rey that he saw Ben as a frightened boy whose master (not “uncle”) had failed him. And when Luke passes, Kylo appears to not have sensed it at all (as we get reaction shots from Rey and Leia but not him).

As for “something must have happened,” the clearest evidence I see in the movie - and I think it’s direct, though others may disagree - is the prominant display of Luke’s exposed robot hand in the bedside flashbacks. Hand symbolism; clear connotation of non-visible damage of some sort.

We have been told that after RotJ Luke rejected the PT Jedi philosophy. He was also very pro-attachment. Yet temple-era Luke was apparently on the extreme other end of the philosophical spectrum. Then Ben turns, and Luke goes hardcore non-interventionist (and, possibly, personally pacifist) and thinks the Jedi should end.

So no, we don’t have the whole story re Luke. (And we already know he lied by omission to Rey once.)

 

How do we know about any philosophical spectrum in temple-era?

Literally there is no information about anti-attachment. Just zero information about personal connection between Ben and Luke. No information doesn't mean there was no relationship. He didn't go hardcore PT-Jedi. Only information we have that as Jedi Master Luke rejected anti-attachment.

Robot hand is callback to his father. Who became a victim of self-fulfilling vision.