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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

A/V Episode VIII - THE LAST JEDI - Official Movie Discussion Thread

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Karl0413, Feb 5, 2016.

  1. FiveFireRings

    FiveFireRings Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 26, 2017
    And once again, we have a complaint that is addressed and undone by the movie itself.

    Again and again I wonder if people even watched the end of the movie...
     
  2. BobaMatt

    BobaMatt TFN EU Staff star 7 VIP

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    Aug 19, 2002
    I think if I'd had it my way he wouldn't have given up on training new Jedi, but would rather be single-mindedly scouring the galaxy for any hint from Jedi history about how he could have fixed things, obsessively collecting books and artifacts, scared to train Rey until he knew the answer...and then we still have Yoda's bit about letting the books burn.

    I don't really object to how the movie deals with his crisis, but it's true that there were other ways to address it. It's sad to see him that way, but it's supposed to be. I don't think it's out of character. And I do wish he'd lived.
     
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2018
  3. sidv88

    sidv88 Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 22, 2005
    It felt false because in real life, when there are problems with an institution, you change it. We didn't burn down the entire us constitution, we made amendments.

    Legends luke made changes to his order. With canon luke, it felt like an all or nothing thing.

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N910A using Tapatalk
     
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2018
  4. BobaMatt

    BobaMatt TFN EU Staff star 7 VIP

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    Aug 19, 2002
    Well, sometimes you burn the whole thing down.

    The thing is, Luke was the hope of the Jedi Order...and he failed. In an enormous, devastating, personal way. So he lets that convince him that means the Jedi can't succeed.

    EDIT:
    This is a great piece. Yeah, it's long, but particularly in the second half she has some really wonderful stuff to say about Luke Skywalker and forgiveness.
     
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2018
  5. Jedi Princess

    Jedi Princess Jedi Master star 4

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    Mar 25, 2014
    In Legends, Luke's order committed crimes that even the Sidious-era Jedi Order would never have imagined.I think you made a stronger argument for burning down an institution there.
     
  6. The_Four_Dot_Elipsis

    The_Four_Dot_Elipsis Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Mar 3, 2005
    Thing is Luke doesn't burn it down. He can't bring himself to do it. He's still wedded to the concept, but he has given Rey the pieces to, well, scavenge.

    He sees the same thing happen that happened to his masters and tries to find a way to break the cycle, but he doesn't chuck the whole thing out.
     
  7. Jedi Princess

    Jedi Princess Jedi Master star 4

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    Mar 25, 2014
    @The_Four_Dot_Elipsis I think we've long since established that half the audience didn't actually watch the end of the movie, cuz yeah...
     
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  8. BobaMatt

    BobaMatt TFN EU Staff star 7 VIP

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    Aug 19, 2002
    I don't think that's the case, I just think there's an actual objection to a character making the wrong choice before making the right choice, or feeling one way before changing their mind. That is, the objection doesn't ignore that Luke comes back, but takes issue with Luke retreating to begin with. On some level I sympathize with this. It's tough to think of Luke as needing redemption.

    The podcast I linked above makes an interesting point about Luke, in that he's unable to "forgive" Kylo or to try to "save his soul," and on some level that's because Luke "failed" him and their personal relationship, and on another it's because everyone has been offering Kylo forgiveness and salvation and he just keeps throwing it back in their faces. What Luke is able to do in the end is to forgive himself - @Dawud786 makes the frequent point that the Jedi must battle their inner darkness to achieve enlightenment. Luke's entire final act is him getting over the need to punish himself.
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2018
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  9. vnu

    vnu Jedi Master star 3

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    Sep 8, 2012
    Yes I did, and I actually enjoyed TLJ up to Luke’s death, which was when I realized that he has absolutely no legacy, that there was no point to his character and his accomplishments in the OT.

    1.) His attitude the whole movie was out of character from the OT

    2.) he plays ZERO role in Rey’s arc.

    3.) he leaves no legacy

    Not saying he had to be a perfect character or have a happy ending, just he was more or less pushed to the side to make room for Rey.

    What was his legacy?

    He saves the Resistance at the end, but big whoop, any Joe Blow or Mary Sue or General Smith could’ve done that. Would’ve liked to see the last Jedis final role a little more.
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2018
  10. vnu

    vnu Jedi Master star 3

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    Sep 8, 2012
    Kathleen Kennedy did. The original director didn’t like the direction they were taking Luke’s character, so Rian was brought in instead.
     
  11. BobaMatt

    BobaMatt TFN EU Staff star 7 VIP

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    Aug 19, 2002
    The entire movie wrestles with the idea of Luke's legend, and the effect he has on the galaxy. That's his legacy. That's all anyone's legacy can be.
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2018
  12. vnu

    vnu Jedi Master star 3

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    Sep 8, 2012
    Good point on many offering Kylo redemption. But TLJ presents Luke NOT trying to do that. He sees Ben turned and immediately retreats. That’s the impression I got. That he takes this frustration on the whole Jedi Order is what comes out of left field.

    I think the issue too is more of I wanted Luke to have had some kind of legacy. I would’ve been able to look past Luke’s out-of-character-from-the-OT had we got that. That we don’t makes it hard to reconcile the 180 from Luke we got.
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2018
  13. Jedi Princess

    Jedi Princess Jedi Master star 4

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    Mar 25, 2014
    If anyone could have done it they would have.

    But leaving that aside, Luke's legacy includes (but is not limited to) thirty years of galactic peace, saving his father's soul, the preservation of ancient Jedi knowledge long thought destroyed, and the inspiration he leaves behind for millions in our world and trillions in his own.

    Not to mention not actually being the Last Jedi, since he did train Rey, through his deeds if not his words.
     
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  14. vnu

    vnu Jedi Master star 3

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    Sep 8, 2012
    True, I wanted to not even bother after Abrams failure in TFA.
     
  15. vnu

    vnu Jedi Master star 3

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    Sep 8, 2012
    No credit to teaching Rey, He did not train Rey. He did not teach Rey. Not even close.

    Credit to 30 years of peace. You’d have thought he wouldn’t hate the Jedi Order after all that peace.

    No credit to saving his fathers soul when he doesn’t bother with his nephews.

    No credit to being an inspiration when the entire Alliance/Resistance already did that.

    No credit to Saving the texts. No one learns **** from them.

    I am saying Disney could’ve had someone else save the Resistance, or not have created a situation where they needed saving, not in-universe.
     
  16. BobaMatt

    BobaMatt TFN EU Staff star 7 VIP

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    Aug 19, 2002
    Because it was his failure. He feels responsible for Ben's turn in ways he was never responsible for Anakin's. When he says he can't save Ben, I don't think he means that Kylo is totally beyond redemption, but specifically that he can't do it. Luke's forgiveness or pleas will mean nothing to him because Luke is in no small part the object of Kylo Ren's hatred.
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2018
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  17. Jedi Princess

    Jedi Princess Jedi Master star 4

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    Mar 25, 2014
    He gave Rey more training than Obi-Wan gave him.
    Yeah, he explicitly talks about why that is in the movie. It's good! You should try it.
    We don't know how long Ben was at the Temple, but we know that the whole reason Leia sent him there in the first place was because they were trying to save his soul. Given that Han says he's never seen the adult face of his son (in the novelization), Luke may have spent more than a decade trying to save him before that fateful night (Ben is in his mid-twenties in the flashback).
    The Resistance was so inspirational that the galaxy rallied around them at the end of the movie.

    Oh wait, the opposite of that.

    We've already seen the beginning of Luke's revolution on Cantonica, it awakens the Force itself within a slave boy.
    Yes, that's why the movie made such a big deal about Rey bringing them back to the Falcon with her. Because they're just gonna sit in a drawer and no one's going to learn anything from them.

    Come on dude.
     
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  18. BobaMatt

    BobaMatt TFN EU Staff star 7 VIP

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    Aug 19, 2002
    The movie mentions this, but I do think it maybe should have made a much bigger deal about why Luke felt the need to go into that hut. What Rey says to Luke is "You thought his mind was made up," which underscores that this is an ongoing struggle and not Luke finding out for the first time that Ben had darkness in him, that this has been a years long attempt to get Ben right with the Force.
     
  19. vnu

    vnu Jedi Master star 3

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    Sep 8, 2012
    I missed Rey taking the texts so error on my end then. Glad to hear some texts will teach her and not Luke.

    Credit to Obi-Wan not teaching Luke much. His Ghost still leads him to Yoda, who does teach him.

    Luke being a rally - we didn’t need him to die to do that. We didn’t need to have the Empire vs Rebels reborn to do that. You’re saying 3 Death Stars destroyed and good in general weren’t enough?

    Didn’t know they had sent Ben to training for redemption. Error on the movies end for not communicating this.
     
  20. sidv88

    sidv88 Force Ghost star 5

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    Aug 22, 2005
    Sending Ben to training to help him was like Batman trying to help Jason Todd by turning him into Robin. What were they thinking?

    America enslaved an entire race of people. It arguably wiped out the people living on the continent before it. Yet most of the world isn't calling for usa to be wiped out.
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2018
  21. vnu

    vnu Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Sep 8, 2012
    I agree. I literally got the impression Luke didn’t even try, that he saw some dark in Kylo Ren one night, Kylo turned, Luke retreats cursing the whole Jedi Order. That was the impression I got, so happy this is incorrect and he had tried on more then one occasion
     
  22. Jedi Princess

    Jedi Princess Jedi Master star 4

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    Mar 25, 2014
    The fact that I know about it means the movies did communicate it. It's in Han and Leia's conversation about their son in The Force Awakens.

    There have been a lot of nations over the years who've called for the end of the United States because of its (continued) crimes against humanity. From the Soviet view (as just one example), that was the entire Cold War. American citizens were seen as victims of the American capitalist government that needed to be liberated.
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2018
  23. BobaMatt

    BobaMatt TFN EU Staff star 7 VIP

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    Aug 19, 2002
    Yeah people choose to end things all the time. It's important that Luke also finds a religious justification for it. As far as he's concerned, it's the right thing to do from a Jedi point of view.
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2018
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  24. Coherent Axe

    Coherent Axe Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 20, 2016
    I like the sense that Rian's approach of "what would challenge these characters the most?" also applies to Luke. For Rey, it's having to confront her parental issues; Poe loses his beloved starfighter and has to stop being a reckless flyboy; Finn has to pick a side and stick with it instead of wanting to run.

    For Luke, we have what if the dude best known for redeeming the bad guy is challenged by a bad guy he can't redeem? As you say, that'd feel like a huge "failure" on Luke's part, precisely because he buys into the same mythologizing as we all have, and Rey starts to. I love how Rian chooses not to challenge characters just by giving them a new bad guy with a super-duper lightsaber to fight, but actually confronts them with the one thing they're not equipped to deal with. Kylo even gets the treatment: he's shown compassion, and he doesn't know what the hell to do with that.
     
  25. BobaMatt

    BobaMatt TFN EU Staff star 7 VIP

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    Aug 19, 2002
    Right. It's really interesting that, in the final confrontation, we see a Luke that is literally a composite projection of other peoples' expectations of him. He had to accept his own limitations, here, and in so doing wound up being exactly the hero the Resistance needed.