A/V Episode VIII - THE LAST JEDI - Official Movie Discussion Thread

Okay, but did Di$ney bring this up in TLJ? If the strength of Luke’s arc in TLJ is having him confront someone he can’t redeem, shouldn’t the movie bring up that he tried?

 

That sounds like how everyone described Harvey Dent at the end of the Dark Knight, and we all know how that turned out. I'm still waiting for Kylo to pull a Bane in 9.

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I don't know who "Di$ney" is, but given that this has been designed as a mutli-movie series since 1980, this movie doesn't actually have to bring up things that have already been established. The previous movie already told you there was "too much Vader in him" before he got to Luke, then this movie tells you that Luke saw "flashes" of that darkness throughout his training.

The Empire Strikes Back doesn't waste time reminding you about Luke's father beyond "powerful Jedi was he" even though wanting to be like his father is Luke's whole motivation in that film. A New Hope already did that. Now, Return of the Jedi absolutely will waste most of Yoda's last words telling you (WORD FOR WORD!) something you already know. But the fact that The Last Jedi doesn't do that isn't a fault of that movie.

 

The reason Yoda has to say that in RotJ is because people didn't believe Vader, and so audiences needed to hear it from a good guy. Absolutely expect something similar either way in Episode XI re: Rey's parentage.

I do think TLJ should have made a bigger deal about Ben's troubles, but it's striking to me that he already seems to have had a handful of acolytes.

 

Just think of Ben as Draco Malfoy and the Knights of Ren as his Slytherin entourage. How Luke aka clueless Dumbledore let this go on so far is beyond me.

I'll just list out some potential Knights of Ren from Legends students who have a history on the Dark Side: Kyle Katarn, Mara Jade (yeah Luke's own wife sided with Ben ), Kyp Durron, Rosh Penin, and Kam Solusar.

Story Group, make this canon now!

Hmm, I wonder if JJ will actually have a good guy confirm Rey's parents were nobody.

Lando: Rey, I'm here to confirm that your parents were indeed poor people with an alcohol problem and no significant fame outside of Jakku.

Rey: I knew it.

Lando: Yes, your parents were nobody, but only because your grandfather, Emperor Palpatine, disowned them their drinking problem.

Rey:

 

I mean most likely Rey will accept that her parents don't matter, as there likely won't be anyone who knows who her parents are.

I'm with you on the Knights of Ren, though - Luke's academy in general could always have a few familiar Legends faces in it.

 

It's the part after that I was referring to. "Remember, a Jedi's strength flows from the Force. But beware. Anger, fear, aggression. The dark side are they. Once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny."

It's not terrible, and it makes sense from the point of view of a 1983 audience who probably hasn't seen The Empire Strikes Back since 1980, but in the modern context I find it really sticks out when watching the two movies back to back. Especially since he then dies mid-sentence telling us the new information.

 

TLJ or TFA did not bring up Luke tried unsuccessfully to redeem Ben, at least to the point where he’d curse the entire Jedi Order and turn his back on it. Only that there was darkness in him early on.

ANH spends a ton of time establishing Luke’s motivations so makes sense only a few lines brought it up in TESB.

A line or two of Luke’s motivation to curse the Order in TFA isn’t enough to make up for something TLJ didn’t clarify enough either.

 

I love how the Knights of Ren are established as a group we’ll learn all about in TLJ but don’t even warrant a mention in it. (Not a flaw, as Snoke says Kylo is the last surviving member, but still interesting)

 

Snoke says nothing about Kylo being the last of the group. He says that Kylo is the Master of the Knights of Ren. They are out there and will hopefully be in 9, although how much detail for each member in a 2 hour movie is hard to say.

 

Man, you really need to rewatch these movies, cuz you keep critiquing things that aren't there; nothing about The Force Awakens establishes that we're going to learn all about them in The Last Jedi (any more than a reference to "the bounty hunter on Ord Mantell" meant we were going to get an Episode 4.5 about it) and no one says that Kylo Ren is the last surviving member.

 

Which makes it all the more interesting they do t warrant a mention in TLJ

 

I don't think most people mention everything in every conversation they have.

I don't honestly get the impression Snoke gives a single damn about the KoR except insofar as they make Kylo Ren feel important.

Also, fan theory: Ren is the name of the planet where Luke's academy was.

 

Once was enough.

Difference is the bounty hunter on Ord Mantell was a past event and used to help establish Hans current situation.

I think it’s funny you have to defend the OT trying to defend the ST. Makes sense because the ST is a rehash if it

 

The KoR are supposedly important. Otherwise they wouldn’t exist.

 

Kylo Ren and the Knights of Ren remind me of Wolverine and the X-Men. Wolverine this, Wolverine that! Who are those other X-Men? They're just there to make Wolverine feel important, despite many of them having 50 year histories that predate Wolverine's first appearance.

They should hammer this home by naming the second in command of the KoR Kyp Durron.

 

This always boggles my mind when this is brought up as a criticism. Its the execution that matters; not the creation. Even if one dislikes the movies, its not going to be directly because the movies were not planned. The OT wasn't planned and when they tried to plan stuff out they undid that the very next movie. I presume most people on these boards are pretty okay with this. The PT was totally planned, after a fashion, and a large portion of the discussion on the prequels is how it should have been entirely restructured.

 

You're assuming that the critics like the execution and assuming they all feel the execution is good. Nothing could be further from the truth.

"Its the execution that matters; not the creation." only works if the execution is good.

 

Durky Ren.

Anyway I have no doubt they'll be important in the next film, or that they're important to Kylo, but I don't think Snoke much cares.

 

Yep. TLJ left such a sour taste in people’s minds Solo bombed and a large chunk of the fan base is pissed.

Also FWIW I liked TLJ other the character assassinating of Luke. I like Kylo Ren and Snoke, the action was good, Rey was tolerable, the music was good, the “Hoth” battle was entertaining; it’s TFA I strongly despise.

The difference with TLJ not being planned it was seemingly a 180 from TFA. Understand why they’re bringing Abrams back, right? And why the original director of TLJ was let go?

 

I'm assuming nothing. Not sure how you got the impression that I think people like the execution, but dislike the lack of planning. My point was really "If you dislike the movies its the execution you're disliking, not inherently the lack of planning."

 

I don't have to do anything, I was using an example.

The Knights of Ren are also a past event (like, they literally appear in a flashback, and they are likely the students Kylo took with him per The Last Jedi) and they are also used to help establish Kylo's current situation (his power, his ability to sway others).

 

Unless he's coming back with robotic arms and legs for 9, I don't think any character in 9 gives much credence to what Snoke thinks.

This would be like Darth Malak wondering if Darth Revan would approve of Bandon long after Malak shot up Revan's ship.

 

We’ll see with TLJ’s sequel